8637 Heating Advice

I may be stating the obvious here but have you considered gas? Our system works like a dream with the boiler in a weatherproof (v important) lean-to and a big tank in a corner of the garden. Bloke comes along and fills it for abt 700 euros . I know it's expensive but all heating is. Oil smells and gets thick when cold etc. Golden tip - have your boiler with an isolating electric plug - fancy circuit boards can be trashed by lightning. I know because we have got thro' three but not any more.

I don't think the issue is the legality of oil. It's the legality of your install. In this region a small gas boiler needs to be inspected every two years. That's a boiler installed by a local qualified and licensed installer. If you aren't on the offical list it might be easier to find a local to handle the install. Even if it costs you more money.

I'd agree if you have natural gas [methane] that is the simplest choice.

Pellet boilers work. But it's like anything else. Do you have enough rads in the right spot? Is the boiler big enough but not too big? Do you have a space to store pellets?

100sq metres is fairly small. You shouldn't have a problem finding a pellet or combo burner that can handle that.

Hi, gas isnt possible (no where to put a tank) my only possibility is to put a oil tank in the cellar..if this is illegal, alot of time,effort and money would have been wasted!! ..id much prefer to have the installation up to italian regulations and inspected..without causing embarasment to myself.
The pellet option was to fit a couple of pellet burners (without boilers) and hoping they would give a decent heat to most of the house,this option would be a lot more convenient.thanks Tony

[quote=07lucca;81084]Hi, gas isnt possible (no where to put a tank) my only possibility is to put a oil tank in the cellar..if this is illegal, alot of time,effort and money would have been wasted!! ..id much prefer to have the installation up to italian regulations and inspected..without causing embarasment to myself.
The pellet option was to fit a couple of pellet burners (without boilers) and hoping they would give a decent heat to most of the house,this option would be a lot more convenient.thanks Tony[/quote]

We both suggested mains gas. If your location has mains gas you should consider it.

Pellet boilers aren't much different then the oil fired one you are considering. Just instead of having an oil fire to heat the water they use pellets. Instead of an oil tank they have a hopper you need to feed every so often.

Would an oil tank in the cellar be legal in the UK? If not then I would very much doubt it would be any different in Italy. Obviously space is the problem but why bother with 2 stufa - why not just the one and install radiators anyway?

We are currently looking at methods of heating so it is interesting to see how different people approach the problem - namely "I may be missing the obvious"!

Jackie

I have no roof space for a water and header tank..so unable to have a normal radiator/hotwater system..so this counts out pellet and wood because they both require tanks.
My only option (i think) is an oil combi where no seperate tanks are required.
Does anyone have any experience of taking a GB oil boiler over and fitting it..and does it work ok??
I must have the most awkward layout of a house possible!!:no:

Oil - gasolio - costs almost as much (in runnng costs in Italy) as using direct electricity, by which I mean convector radiators, fan heaters, oil filled rads etc etc. You pay the same price for the fuel as you pay for diesel at the pump in the high street garage.

[quote=07lucca;81175]I have no roof space for a water and header tank..so unable to have a normal radiator/hotwater system..so this counts out pellet and wood because they both require tanks.
My only option (i think) is an oil combi where no seperate tanks are required.
Does anyone have any experience of taking a GB oil boiler over and fitting it..and does it work ok??
I must have the most awkward layout of a house possible!!:no:[/quote]

Well oil requires a tank. The space for the oil tank could be used for the pellet tank. Doesn't need to be on the roof. Pumps and a pressure tank.

Do you have a fireplace? Have you considered a termocamino? A wood fired boiler mounted in the fireplace. That saves some space.

1. As was pointed out by Charles Phillips oil is as expensive as Enel. replacing all thr rads to el rads is more expense.
2. Don't forget an oil boiler will cost you more to purchase and more to run. No economy there then.
3. A new termocamino means more plumbing and costs.

As pointed out by NickZ if you have oil you must have an oil tank.
Replace this with an underground gpl tank (included free in the suppliers contract) and delivered free of charge. GPL costs about €0,68/litre

Then put a gpl combi boiler from the UK for €750 and get the local to plumber it in.
You can then use the existing rads and DHW no further expense!

A rough simple budget

Removal of old oil tank including excavator say €500
New GPL combi boiler say €750
Plumbing say €1000

Total cost roughly = €2.250.
A modern Italian boiler can cost you that on its own!!
:smile:

Good Luck!!

oil tanks are not well liked as they can leak into the soil and so they have to be well sealed and are very expensive to install... i would suggest also that its not a popular option here now beacuse as has been pointed out the cost of the fuel is very high

GPL would give you the same headache if space is limited...Ipresume because you are talking about having the oildtank inside your spcae outside is limited... even buried GPL tanks have to be a certain distance from any buildings...

both systems require an Italian cerification over the installation and the boilers in both cases have to be run up for the first time by a qualified tech of the barnd you buy and then the data passed to the local comune so they can do their annual controls...

pellet are a solution...cassini is the expert on that i think...we have one in our house now which keeps a 200 metre square house warm with also hot water... it can either run pressurised or open so a header tank is not always required... ours is open as we have the roof space...

however because we live here we have what you might call a basic version... of the boiler... it actually works a bit like a combi boiler...maintaining a certain amount of hot water at temp and then the thing firing up when the temp drops...it burns all types of fuels from maize to olives and pellets... the hopper transfer unit is noisey...so it needs to be away from the main living area...

however there are smaller ones which just hold a normal supply and with a fairly small property i would have thought you could easily arrive at an alternative solution...

i would also check carefully if mains gas is available... or a central GPL tank system... both are quite common and in the most unlikely palces here so then you could get back to just having youur normal gas combi boiler with no tank problems at all...

meantime i could also say that the pelletr boiler is running ok and keeping all things cosey...but is does take a lot of fine tuning to make sure everything runs at peak... and its not like a gas boiler that you just switch on... will give a more detailed breakdown of how it all works when i know... but i am happy with it so far ... and we have a gas system as a backup if it all gets a bit too much...

costs ...cause that always seems to be the main question... boiler 2,500 ...chimney... i guess around the e300 and fitting ...difficult to say but as were putting in two new bathrooms and the ground floor radiators at the time so its all a bit mixed up... but it will depend on your building anyway...

both systems require an Italian certification over the installation and the boilers in both cases have to be run up for the first time by a qualified tech of the brand you buy and then the data passed to the local commune so they can do their annual controls...

Following on from Adriatica.

He is correct that new and restored heating and boiler systems must be certified by an approved plumber and deposited with the commune.

He is also correct in part but needs a further clarification

1. There is no demand from any commune or province that a qualified technician of the brand boiler has to run the equipment first.

2. As in the UK rules are different for private individuals and landlords.

As a landlord it is mandatory to clean the combustion chamber every 12 months certify and deposit with the commune – as indicated by adriatica. The commune does not check they have hardly the resources to do so.

For the private individual (that’s you & me) naturally if you want a smooth running boiler you can pay ~ €100 every 12 months for this “timbro” but it is not mandatory. Private individuals take the responsibility such that it is (so the boiler doesn’t ignite after five years).

We must learn to be objective you wouldn’t let a plumber pull the wool over your eyes would you in the UK – NO!– so why do we allow this here in Italy; is it a language thing???

So you can buy a €30 gpl gas boiler from Rumania if it has the CE kite mark and naturally you are agreed with your installer. Simple ain't it. That's what the EU is all about competition.

[quote=lotan4850;81294]

He is also correct in part but needs a further clarification

1. There is no demand from any commune or province that a qualified technician of the brand boiler has to run the equipment first.

The commune does not check they have hardly the resources to do so.
[/quote]

Abruzzo [I think it's regional and not a provincal law] requires all boilers below 35KW [Think that's right] to be inspected every two years.

New boilers are exempt for the first couple of years or less. But that's because the first inspecation is included in the install.

I say less because it's for every two year set. So right now it's for 2008/9. If you had a boiler installed 12/2009 it would need to get it's two year check up in 2010.

Having rerad that electricity is generally as cheap as running a gas system I have tried to look at different sort of electrical heaters.

I recently visited an old stone cottage in the Uk which has very flash new night storage heaters which also worked as convector heaters. Even though it was a freezing cold day the cottage was lovely and warm and the heaters were on the lowest setting. I haven't been able to find any info on these yet but would something like that work in italy - even though I don't think the equivalent of economy seven tariff is available?

Also found this site offering electric combination boilers and rads that can just be plugged in. [url=http://www.electric-heatingcompany.co.uk]The Electric Heating Company[/url]. Can't find any prices or running costs but it may be the answer. Any one know anything?

Amendment: Have just found the heaters I was talking about, they are Dimplex DuoHeat Radiator with Electronic Control - 0.7kW Output. Would these work in Italy?

Jackie

[quote=jackie C;81331]Having rerad that electricity is generally as cheap as running a gas system I have tried to look at different sort of electrical heaters.

I recently visited an old stone cottage in the Uk which has very flash new night storage heaters which also worked as convector heaters. Even though it was a freezing cold day the cottage was lovely and warm and the heaters were on the lowest setting. I haven't been able to find any info on these yet but would something like that work in italy - even though I don't think the equivalent of economy seven tariff is available?

Also found this site offering electric combination boilers and rads that can just be plugged in. [URL="http://www.electric-heatingcompany.co.uk"]The Electric Heating Company[/URL]. Can't find any prices or running costs but it may be the answer. Any one know anything?

Amendment: Have just found the heaters I was talking about, they are Dimplex DuoHeat Radiator with Electronic Control - 0.7kW Output. Would these work in Italy?

Jackie[/quote]

I don't think that you should assume electricity is as cheap to run as [B]gas,[/B] (although the price difference between electricity and gpl isn't enormous) but it is certainly very close in price to heating by [B]oil.[/B]

The electric radiators you have found would work in Italy - if you had a normal 3kW supply you could have four of them, with 6.6kW you could have eight of them. There is a cheaper rate night time electricty tarriff available (not as much cheaper as it is in the UK) and I believe it is only allowed if you have a 6.6kW or higher supply.

Best of luck doing the sums!

Don't forget if you have residency then you will get a better rate for electricity!( if you ask for it)

[quote=Charles Phillips;81340] There is a cheaper rate night time electricty tarriff available (not as much cheaper as it is in the UK) and I believe it is only allowed if you have a 6.6kW or higher supply.

Best of luck doing the sums![/quote]

ENEL have just introduced BIORARIA - ie cheaper rates from 1900-0800 Mon to Fri, at weekends and on bank holidays. Rates are fixed for 2 years, the opening rates were good value. There are 3 bands: 3kW resident, 3kW non-resident and 4.5kW. For the current deal you had to return the paperwork by 31 Jan, presumably there will then be another offer but no doubt the rates will be higher as prices have risen in the meantime. We signed up the last time they had such an offer - it made a huge difference to the bills so fingers crossed the same will happen this time round. However, ENEL being ENEL, although we returned the forms in December, this week we received a letter informing us that our Bioraria supply would commence on 1st March!!!! Why does it take so long? - they have no problem increasing the rates with immediate effect!

Thanks for that anne2. We have a cost price source for these heaters and have decided that we might as well sign up to the offer by enel. Even if we change our minds about the heating we calculate that most of our usage is/can be during the times alloted so we will be better off any way!

One problem, filling in the blasted on line form - I'm afraid I've fallen at the first fence and don't know which box to tick. Can anyone tell me which of the following statements apply? :reallyembarrassed:

Contatore elettronico teleletto

Contatore elettromeccanico tradizionale

Thanks -

Jackie

[quote=anne2;81453]ENEL have just introduced BIORARIA - ie cheaper rates from 1900-0800 Mon to Fri, at weekends and on bank holidays. Rates are fixed for 2 years, the opening rates were good value. There are 3 bands: 3kW resident, 3kW non-resident and 4.5kW. For the current deal you had to return the paperwork by 31 Jan, presumably there will then be another offer but no doubt the rates will be higher as prices have risen in the meantime. We signed up the last time they had such an offer - it made a huge difference to the bills so fingers crossed the same will happen this time round. However, ENEL being ENEL, although we returned the forms in December, this week we received a letter informing us that our Bioraria supply would commence on 1st March!!!! Why does it take so long? - they have no problem increasing the rates with immediate effect![/quote]

That is good to know - it always struck me as rather unfair that previously the 'off-peak' offer wasn't available for 'basic' 3kW supplies.

It pays to keep up with the 'special offers' from ENEL. There is one special offer which could be of interest to people who only occasionally use their house as a holiday home: it is a fixed rate (about €150 a year as I recall) which you pay annually, in advance, and would easily cover normal (not including heating) electrical needs for about two months occupation. The advantage (for some) could be that you would not need to set up a direct debit or worry about paying online, and you wouldn't run the risk of being cut off.

[quote=jackie C;81464]
One problem, filling in the blasted on line form - I'm afraid I've fallen at the first fence and don't know which box to tick. Can anyone tell me which of the following statements apply? :reallyembarrassed:

Contatore elettronico teleletto

Contatore elettromeccanico tradizionale

Thanks -

Jackie[/quote]

sounds like it's asking what kind of meter you have - whether its the old electro-mechanical one (with revolving digits) or a new electronic one (with a digital readout). If it helps, here's a picture of a new style electronic one - click on it to enlarge.

ps. the snail is an optional extra ;-)

Post deleted by #1. The 'ps' answered my query.

[quote=jackie C;81464]
Contatore elettronico teleletto

Contatore elettromeccanico tradizionale

Thanks -

Jackie[/quote]

The first is a new type of meter that is read automaticlly by the system so the meterman does not have to call, the second is not read automatically and he does. They are gradually changing everyone over to the newer system.
Have a look at your most recent bill - in the bottom right hand corner it gives you the k W that you have used - if it says 'xxxx del dd/mm/aaaa' (effetiva) you have probably got the automatic variety. If it gives a speel about phoning within 3 days of the next due date to give them an actual reading it is the latter type.

[quote=Charles Phillips;81465]That is good to know - it always struck me as rather unfair that previously the 'off-peak' offer wasn't available for 'basic' 3kW supplies.

.[/quote]

Actually, it has often been the other way around and it is non-residents or the larger kW which have not been entitled to many of the beter deals.
It is definitely worth having a look at the site every so often for their special deals as often they are available only for short periods. We have never had more than a 3kW supply and signed up for one deal - told friends about it, when they had a look a week or so later it was no longer being advertised although we continued to enjoy the benefit for a year or so more!

Thanks every one I did think it might be something to do with the meters but not sure.

Before I attempt to sign up for the fixed rate any advice as to whether it would be useful to sign up for a higher kw usage and how difficult/costly is this. We only want to run back ground heating to the bedrooms and sitting room and will suppliment this with a log burner.

We use the house as a holiday home at present but hopefully that will change once the children have flown the nest.

Thanks

Jackie

We (2 adults, 2 children -permanently resident) have only ever had a 3kW supply and manage without any difficulty. We tend not to use the tumble drier or dishwasher anyway, but manage to balance everything out so the system rarely trips - having the bioraria supply makes it even easier as to benefit from that I tend to run the washing machine during the evening or overnight after supper (washing machine and electric oven running together do tend to trip the system). You mentioned electric heaters, so I suppose the kW you need would depend upon the draw they take when running.

Have managed to fill in the application on line and have an order number but it would seem I have to print various forms off for signing before returning them to Enel. I read in a different thread that the fax no. given doesn't work from the UK. Does anyone know whether I could scan and e mail them back or give an alternative fax number as I doubt the post will get them there before the cut off date of 31 January!

Jackie

For a room or two you can get a propane heater. The things scare me but I must be the only person in town without one :laughs:

[quote=NickZ;81522]For a room or two you can get a propane heater. The things scare me but I must be the only person in town without one :laughs:[/quote]
...Or a paraffin/kerosine/[I]parafina[/I] burner. I only noticed the modern catalytic version of these things during a recent visit to a Brico place and was amazed at the price range: from €100 to €800.

I suppose they're slightly less scary than bottled gas, and my recollection is that some of the things have a detector that cuts off the fuel supply if CO2 levels get too high due to lack of ventilation.

Al

We are living in the 21st century; all this talk of kerosene/parrafin/calor gas heaters ... and 3kw supplies tripping... what happen to modern living ... this sounds like something from the sixties.

Have we moved to Italy to re live our childhood ....

What happen to central heating and warm houses??

Is Italy still in the dark ages and we're here reliving them - no I hope not!

[quote=lotan4850;81588]

What happen to central heating and warm houses??
[/quote]

Combination of $100 oil,global warming and homes built before the invention of central heating. Add in the fact most don't need heating for very many months.

You're free to install heating into your home. I did but then I live here 365 days a year. If I didn't a wood stove in the kitchen and a gas heater for the bedroom would have more then made me happy. Well maybe some sort of hotwater heater.

Well the answer is ... choose your house carefully - or at least your insulation and style of heating!! Something most of us only realise when are very committed. I'm sure new builds designed for all year round living are more energy efficient and warm than previous designs. We have to face it; Italy is a high cost energy society hence the popularity of wood for heating.

Choose your house carefully is good advice. I hate cold and our house was the only place we saw in April 2005 that felt 'normal' when the front door was unlocked.The other places were around 5 degs!

I'm sure someone here will know why but although we have no foundations, no concrete slab our house is never too cold ? One room,which we have taken the floor out of and made sub-floor of rocks plus gravel, is weirdly warm at all times unless its sub-zero out side.

Could it be some toxic waste is under our house heating things up?? Not unless it was there 400 years ago.A possible explanation is that one side of our house is close to the ravine that runs up to the mountain and that may have warmer sides that make the ground under us warm??We are also under the shetler of a slope that stops cold winds from the mountains hitting us too hard. Geologist please help !

We are leaving our kitchen floor alone (200 year old bricks on earth) and sticking with the gravel sub-floor with lime sand on top then bricks.no actual insulation (excepting of course the gravel.)It will be interesting to see what it feels like with heating.

One quite important reason for your house being inherently warmish, or easy to heat, will be its orientation. If, as you say, it is sheltered from the North (and North East) winds by a mountain, it probably faces generally South.

Since it sounds as if it is an old building, it almost certainly has the 'correct' overhang on the eaves, which means that the sun will enter the south facing windows during the winter, but the sun will be too high in the sky during summer to cause overheating problems.

It's called 'passive design', and it makes an enormous difference to the energy requirements of a house. These days it doesn't happen because politicians (as planners) restrict building to bad sites, and because bean counters (maximising profit on these bad bits of land) force at least fifty percent of all buildings to be oriented badly. The other fifty percent flood!

Well said Charles Phillips!! Use an architect and you should get it right from the start.

Orientation can save lots in heating and cooling costs!!

:yes:

One of the fundamental rules for designing a building!

Do you get the impression that maybe Charles Phillips could be an architect? No need to answer this...!!

[quote=Charles Phillips;81733]
Since it sounds as if it is an old building, it almost certainly has the 'correct' overhang on the eaves, which means that the sun will enter the south facing windows during the winter, but the sun will be too high in the sky during summer to cause overheating problems.

It's called 'passive design', and it makes an enormous difference to the energy requirements of a house. These days it doesn't happen because politicians (as planners) restrict building to bad sites, and because bean counters (maximising profit on these bad bits of land) force at least fifty percent of all buildings to be oriented badly. The other fifty percent flood![/quote]

Unfortunately, as I have discovered, there is no 'correct' overhang due to the tracking of the sun changing throughout the year. You can however calculate the best overhang and combine this with 'passive solar' to get a pretty good result.

We are currently doing this as we are designing a new structure that will have a SW facing glass wall and to get the shading right not only do we have to get the overhang right but paid attention to the benefits of passive solar by building close to trees which will provide shade in summer but drop their leaves in the winter. To give you an idea of what I am talking about below is an initial drawing.

[URL]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1912&d=1202026436[/URL]

As as has been suggested here using an architect is paramount and ours is currently working out the path of the sun. Once he has done that we will then look at what the solar gain is to work out the best orientation for the building.

For those with a 'big brain' you may like to read the following link about the 'overhang myth'

[URL="http://web.axilar.net/LarenCorie/OverhangsAndOversights.htm"]Overhangs And Oversights[/URL]

If only more people could use these methods for new builds!Think of the energy that could be saved.

Thinking of our house the warmest room has an outside wall that is directly heated by the sun as it rises.There is nothing at all in front of the wall.The first floor is stone which absorbs the heat and the stones are uncovered by render.Our door faces north so the front of the house is in the shade until 3pm in the summer.

The overhang should be big enough to block summer sun. No it won't be perfect 365 days a year but what is?

The classic overhang is a wrap around porch. You can guess how seldom that was perfect but you can sit on the porch when it's nice extending your living space.

I'd think the thermal mass of the stone house is a bigger issue then the passive gain. Most Italian homes aren't exactly glass skyscrapers. But if you've beeen heating the house all season then the stones have heated up a fair bit. It's why you can open your windows to air things out and not end up totally frozen afterwards.