8699 Law 143 art.14 pertaining to fees

i have a lot of sympathy with your dilemna and have noted that this happens too many times to people here that have not received good advice on how to proceed with people

however from what has happened in the past these people... be it lawyers or geometras or wahtever seem to have a right to a fee without any written contract...

i too would be interested to hear if anyone has fought against this sucessfully as some friends of ours used a law firm once to fight this sort of unwritten right to payment and had to settle out of court...

its a common enough practice amongst some people working here to sell a fairly cheap house and then recuperate a large amount of fees at this sort of level... obviously giving people the impresion that its a sort of friendly local architect or geometra giving a bit of free advice... it sometimes is more profitable at this stage of a house sale and obviously you were being pushed to the limit on what you were willing to put into the project...people often get talked into paying more than they had been told it was going to cost during the sale...once that part is signed they then find that not only is it the over costed project they then end up paying a lot more as they are then seen as being vulnerable to rising costs and paying them...

one set oif people we know have ended up paying close to e100,000 for a 40 sqm historical apartment ... thats about e80,000 building projection costs... its little wonder that some italians think the english are an easy touch...

one thing for sure not to do is to ignore the bill as after a certain amount of time it becomes even more difficult as the late payment or non contested bill can then become fixed as owing by a court

if you get no firm advice maybe send an email or pm to charlotte oliver... think its CJM on the forum who is n english solicitor based in Rome.. she might be able to help

[quote=basiunka;81611]Hello all,
I'm hoping that someone can sort out a little problem I have. We asked an engineer to draw up some plans for a possible renovation. He was given a budget of 50k for the renovation work. When the proposal came through it came to 91k, which obviously is of no interest to us. We have not authorised him to do any other work. He has now sent us a bill for his services which amounts to over 4,600 euro and claims he is entitled to charge this in accordance with the title referenced law.
I may be wrong, but I thought this law pertained to situations where the project is actually carried out - not just for drawing up some plans (which by the way are not worth 1k let alone 4.6k).
I have a copy of the law, but the Italian is a little beyond me. We have no contract with this man; we have not authorised any work other than the plans; we do not wish to proceed with his project.
I believe there is a civil engineer on the forum and would appreciate some guidance on this.
Thanks[/quote]

Hello
I'm not the civil engineer but I can do some translating of the mentioned law for you. I am sure Charlotte Oliver would be able to help, hopefully she can consult with her Italian partners and can give you some free advice here, but if you retain the services of a lawyer I doubt very much you would save money on the original 4,600 euros.

The text of the law can be found here:
[url=http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:j0OCbAPGp_4J:www.bosettiegatti.com/info/norme/statali/1949_0143_tariffe_arch.pdf+legge+143+art.14&hl=it&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=it&client=firefox-a]Legge 2 marzo 1949, n. 143[/url]
It's a bit long for me to translate in its entirety, but I've had a quick read through. The following jumped out at me:
"Suspension, for any reason, of the instruction given to the professional does not free the client from their obligation to pay fees for work done and set forth as described in article 18, below. The professional reserves the right to claim damages, if said suspension of the instruction is not caused by the professional"

and later in art. 18:

"When the work of the professional does not involve following the entire project to its completion, but is limited to certain parts and the original instruction reflects this, the evaluation of percentage fees is based on the rates specified in the attached table B, increased by 25%, such as in the case of the suspension of instruction as per the first subparagraph of art. 10...

In the case of partial original instruction, the aforementioned rates or percentages are calculated on the total amount of the corresponding project, or a reliable quote.

In the case of suspension of the instruction, the fee is calculated by applying the corresponding rates or percentages on the total project amount or quote for the planned works not yet carried out"

Then, in the attached tariff table "B", the following items are included as having specific reference to "work provided by the professional":

a) Basic project

b) Summarized quote

c) Executive project

d) Detailed quote

From what you state in your post, it seems you gave an instruction (albeit not a signed contract) to the engineer to draw up plans. This constitutes work on his part, even if he doesn't oversee the project. It looks like he has calculated his fee according to the above law, based on his quote, according to his work done so far: it's not clear from your post what you mean by the fact that you "asked him to draw up plans". If this was the executive project with detailed quote, it could be pricey. I don't understand the numbers part at all in the law, so hopefully someone else can help you there.

As I understand it, there is no doubt that you owe the engineer for his time and skills in drawing up and producing the plans and quote. The question is how much. You could hire a lawyer to sort it out for you but at 350 odd euros an hour for the lawyer it probably isn't worth it.

If I were you I'd sit down with the engineer and try to sort something out, explain your budget limitations and try to see if he can get the quote down.

Also, did you have a quote from an architect or engineer as to how much the works would cost you before buying the property or did you take the word of the estate agent? Or do you already have experience restoring property in Italy? I'm curious as to how you came up with the 50,000 euro figure. It may be that for the work you want done, it simply isn't possible to do it for 50,000 euros, so you may need to adjust your spec.

I'm no expert in the law, but surely the engineer had a responsibility to the client to stay within the budget, or inform them that it couldn't be done before drawing-up detailed plans?

yes you'd think so wouldn't you? I suppose it depends how clear the communication was between the parties.

If there is only a basic project, they seems to me too much money...
:masked:

Which are the invoice specification?

All the best,
Massimo

Hello all and thank you very much for your replies.

I spent last night trawling through the legal document and on the face of it, it is legally correct.

The bill is based on a project cost, multiplied by a percentage and a multiplier for 'progetto di massima', 'preventivo particolareggiato' and 'particolare costruttivi e decor.' I'm not sure at this point whether all three of these really do apply and I'm also not sure if the classification of the building is correct.

Anyway this figure then has 25% added for 'partial completion' - again allowed in the legal document. Now, I can understand that if you use someone's project and not them, that you should pay for the 'copyright' so to speak. However, there is no project to be completed as the proposal was ludicrous and is fit only for the bin as far as we are concerned.

This latest sum then has 2% professional fees added and finally 20% IVA.

One of my problems is that the base figure is 80k when we had a gross budget of 50k ie 42k net and THAT should be the base figure. He at no time requested permission to exceed the budget figure. If he can now bill me based on the inflated cost, then it follows he could just as easily have quoted 300k for the project and still I would have had to pay him! Where are the limits?

All we asked him to do was put forward a proposal of what was possible for the limited budget we have. Instead he put forward a proposal at twice that budget which included just about every whistle and bell you could think of (copper down spouts?) and for which we hadn't asked. Why is he allowed to get away with this?

Anyway, end of moan. Thanks again to all.
Barbara

Hi again
I've tried to find Charlotte Oliver but can't seem to find anything under that name in the members list. Does anyone know her ID please?

CMJ Oliver, solicitor

[quote=basiunka;81654]
......which included just about every whistle and bell you could think of (copper down spouts?) and for which we hadn't asked. Why is he allowed to get away with this?

Anyway, end of moan. Thanks again to all.
Barbara[/quote]

In our area copper downspouts are compulsory whether you want them or not!
Why don't you just sit down with him and go through it word for word explaining why you are unhappy/concerned and discovering his reasoning for including ' every whistle and bell' - for which he may or may not have perfectly legitimate reasons for including. If you just don't like the plans he has drawn up, then you would no doubt be able to come to an agreement for fees and if he is worried about copyright, he keeps the plans.
I am no legal expert but I suspect you would have to pay him something for his time and the work he has done - no professional can work for nothing!

Basiunka, I agree with Anne and others who suggest that you have a direct discussion with the engineer. You may be able to reach an agreement. Also, some of the items included in the estimate may be compulsory or absolutely necessary, hence the increase in the final price of the project, something that you may not have considered originally. Always try to settle the matter in an amicable way.