8704 No protection for children.

[quote]We told the head in front of our son that he has our full backing to defend himself against this monster if she makes any attempt to touch him.
[/quote]

And you seem to think that this type of action as ok too!

Will you still say your kid is a good boy,when he has bashed a women teacher!!

By giving him your full backing to defend himself so to speak, you have given him a licence to use physical force against anyone who even contridicts him.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and your actions are worse than the teacher,you are teaching your child it is ok to bash someone!

Thats always wrong...... sorry. You should be doing the confronting not your child, either by going to the carabinieri or confronting the teacher in question.

[quote] this teacher has done this before to other children and it always appears to be the foreign children[/quote]

What exactly do you mean by that statement? being as you do not mention why the incident took place,although you say you have the full facts,how can you. you make no mention of talking to the teacher in question?

My kids were good kids too, but i was never nieve enough to believe the versions of any events in full.

[URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/legal/5067-teachers-hitting-children.html"]This thread[/URL] might be of interest.

...Or maybe not. :eerr:

But it covers some issues that might be relevant.

Al

If something like that happened in my son's school to an Italian child, that Italian mother would be round to the carabinieri in double quick time.

If you are sure that your son was hit, and other mothers have expressed the same concern, then I think a denuncia is absolutely justified. Do you have to wait until the teacher brings out the scissors?

[url=http://www.repubblica.it/2007/02/sezioni/scuola_e_universita/servizi/lingua-milano/lingua-milano/lingua-milano.html]Milano, maestra taglia la lingua all'alunno Fioroni: "Licenziamento immediato" - Scuola & Giovani - Repubblica.it[/url]

Sometimes making an enemy of the teacher is not the way to go unless you are actively seeking to make your son's life a misery, but I think in this case, if he really was assaulted, then given the apathy of the preside you need to report it to the carabinieri.

I agree with Gio that it's probably not the "right" thing to do to encourage your child to fight back, but having witnessed myself, aged 10 at boarding school, a teacher bang the head of a fellow pupil repeatedly against the classroom wall, slap children in the face when they got their answers wrong, I don't think I'd be particularly cross with mine if he was faced with a similar situation and decided to defend himself.

Maybe I'm being a bit over the top, and the first step would be to arrange a meeting with the teacher first to discuss it. After all, if you go to the carabinieri and nothing is eventually done (the teacher stays), you will seriously need to think about changing schools.

The very best of luck.

I'm with Garda. Plus what is a 10 year old going to do? His he armed? Short of shocking some sense into the teacher he'll just get the worst of it.

the teacher has assauted other stranieri in the school and we met with the head although did say that we wanted to meet with him and the teacher. We shall see if any decision is made in the next few days and then go to the carabinieri and await the course of justice.
To Giovanni- I talk about self defence yeh. Not mindlesss bashing of a woman teacher as you put it. She carried out mindless violence on a minor-did you read my post?
And Giovanni I mean other foreighn children, do you not think teachers can be racist.
Individuals who thnk its ok to hit children probably still think its ok to beat the wife for burning the dinner but thats ok if you go to confession on Sunday and say a few hail mary's.

[quote]To Giovanni- I talk about self defence yeh. Not mindlesss bashing of a woman teacher as you put it. She carried out mindless violence on a minor-did you read my post?
[/quote]

Yes i read your post!

and if the above statement is true, why have you not gone to the police already?!!!!!!!!!!! or have we not got the full story.

[quote]And Giovanni I mean other foreighn children, do you not think teachers can be racist.
Individuals who thnk its ok to hit children probably still think its ok to beat the wife for burning the dinner but thats ok if you go to confession on Sunday and say a few hail mary's. [/quote]

I assume this statement is meant for me, some sort of retort!

I cannot recall anyone saying it was ok for anyone to hit anyone else! so where does this come from, is it your anger/rage coming out because i do not condone what you have done.

You are screaming the teacher is a monster in one sentence,and then condoning forever the fact that you have made it clear,your son can and will defend himself!

God knows how he will do that without actually making physical contact?
And worse still will it be OK if this teacher/monster goes towards him just to tell him off, if he then reacts with violence [defends himself]!

I am already sure in your mind it will be excusable,and thats where the problem lies.

If what you claim is true, then go to the police.

Go to the Carabinieri, do not wait and take any other parents whose children have been assaulted by this person . The head is right when he says he has no power to sack her it all comes from above him.
There are plenty of racists in Italy its no utopia.

In my case the head teacher was very supportive, he insisted that the woman appologised to the whole class for her unacceptable behaviour ( I think she probably found this humiliating) I also think it was a good lesson to the kids as it shows that adults have the same rules- when they are wrong they should appologise.
And since then the teacher has been fine, she actually gets on with my son now.
Apart from this incident I have found the schools here in Italy, have been really good but where I am the class sizes are very small, and maybe the problems in UK are because expecting 1 adult to cover 30 kids is unreasonable.

I`m not at all surprised by this. We have been bitterly disappointed by the schooling system (and the teachers) in Italy and last September, after 3 years in school, we brought our kids (aged 13 and 14) back to the UK to finish their schooling. 5 months on and I`m am really pleased that we did so. I love Italy and loved living there but this is one aspect of Italian life that really needs to catch up with the modern world.

You can go to the carabinieri but I wouldn`t have much confidence in justice being done. Also, there`ll be plenty of other awful teachers to take that one`s place!

Hazel

I think Italian schools have some good qualities.

I went through some difficulties with the Italian schooling system but a lot of it was down to me expecting it to "behave" like the British one and not understanding how things are done here, and most importantly, how important the influence of the family and parents in the actual schooling is.

My son had some difficulties with his teachers, who I think are antiquated dragons, but after being called down to the school many, many times to explain why he had forgotten to do this homework or left that book at home, I finally realised that parents are expected to follow their children's work much more closely than in the UK. For example, homework is less of a verification of what the child has understood in class or an exercise in independent study, more of a continuation of the school day which a parent is expected to oversee and assist. This harks back to the days when most women stayed at home to care for the family and schools ended at 12 noon. My mother-in-law explained to me that, with four children, all her afternoons were always spent teaching the kids through homework (rather than helping) from 2 until 5 every day.

I fought against this psychologically for a long time and finally allowed said mother-in-law to take charge of homework (seeing as both I and my husband work full time). I also told the teachers I would give them my 100% support in helping getting my son to where he needed to be ((his problems were: not paying attention in class, daydreaming, forgetting things, not problems learning. As he is very quick to pick up things and has a near photographic memory I suspected he was bored in class, but the old-fashioned attitude to schooling, in this particular school, does not encourage positive reinforcement or adapting teaching to individual abilities of students). As part of my show of commitment, I agreed to take away his playstation (not as punishment, as a genuine need to find out if it was having a detrimential effect on his concentration, which my son understood and didn't complain about although he wasn't happy!). The only thing I refused to do was force him into religious classes, which we had opted out of and which the teachers seemed to think would have a profound effect on him they seemed to imply that not being catholic was at the root of things! I left that decision to him.
My attitude seemed to reassure the teachers that we all wanted the same things, and hopefully went someway towards improving their attitude to him, as I was very, very aware that a rompipalle mother can end up with the teacher taking it out on the child.

Long story short: the combination of my mother-in-law's tutoring and removal of the playstation (one hour on weekends only now after a 6 month ban) seems to have worked. He now gets top marks and the teachers say he is a different child. He also seems happier.

The one negative is their total unwillingness to give any sign of positive reinforcement other than marks. In fact at the last meeting they said not to tell him he was doing so well! They never smile or praise him, and in English he has been told to stay quiet instead of using him as an example of pronunciation (the English teacher can barely string a sentence in English together) and their reasoning for this is that he has to learn humility.

At the end of the day, I don't think he will suffer psychologically as we do our best to offset it at home, and I've also discussed it all with him at great length, explaining that it's their way of doing things, and their way of giving praise is to give him good marks. Regarding having to stay quiet in English and not "correct" the teacher, I explained she just doesn't want to be shown up and that he just has to be bigger than her and not let it bother him.

As far as the results go, I have always compared his work with the work of his British cousins and friends of the same age, and there is NO COMPARISON. The Italian system seems to be putting out children who read and write far better (at the age of 8 you could have confused his handwriting and that of his classmates with the handwriting of an adults, compared to the childish, round printing and immature phrasing of the UK kids) and are better disciplined.

A few years ago I would have said the UK system was better, not any more. With the exception of the Nurse Ratchett attitude of the teachers.

Yes I think the teachers here are more commited, (to getting results) but you are right about the lack of praise, my children have progressed steadily and improved over the last 2 years but they never get told how good they are only that they could do better.
This is a real shame as encouragement gets results.
Also our English teacher expect my 9yr old to write perfect English even though she has been in Italy for nearly 4 years and most of her education has been here. Although we speak English at home she thinks in Italian first when she sees a written word.(Fortunately she enjoys books and she reads brilliantly in both languages)
He is intimidated by her when she corrects him and has a nasty habit of telling her she is wrong if he has not heard of the English word she uses.
I have had to bite my tongue on a couple of occasions, maybe I should ask him if he wants me to give him an English lesson!

It's not until your children start school that you realise a) how different schools/teachers are and b) what suits one child certainly doesn't suit another.

My two started out at our very small (only 50 children in total), well supported village school. It had excellent SATS results and was in the top of the league tables. My daughter thrived there but my son hated it. He wasn't a naughty child (well no more so than any other little boy) but we were constantly called into school about his "disruptive" behaviour. The picture painted was dire to say the least and we eventually had a child psycologist come in to school to assess him. She said he was a perfectly normal child and it transpired that his disruptive behaviour was no more than fidgetting in line for PE, playing his instrument at the wrong time in music and chatting when he had finished his work whilst waiting for everybody else!

Unfortunatley it was very hard to turn the teacher's attitude around - it only improved when a child with real problems and on retalin arrived! By then my son was so miserable it broke your heart to see.

After a long chat we decided to change school and he got to choose his new school. It wasn't our first choice as it was a much bigger school with a large in take of kids from the local council estate. However he thrived. He benefited from mixing with kids that weren't as fortunate as himself and the teachers weren't just interested in exam results so there was no "hot housing". As it happened he came out with excellent results and all of his teachers thought him a joy to have in the class.

He went on to achieve really good exam results at GCSE, won a place at music college (take note Miss Thomas of said first school!) and we are all very proud of him.

I don't know how old your child is Fortuna but don't leave it too late before taking strong action - even it is just to vote with your feet. It [B]will[/B] have an effect on your child on some level - my son readily admits that if he had stayed at his first school he would have probably become the "delinquent" they all predicted!

Good luck

Jackie

Fortuna, if things get really bad, and if you can afford it, a private school could be an option. Your child won't necessarily get a better education but they are softer on the kids (or so I hear) and the head will have more clout (and so will you) than in the state schools.

I thought I would join in to a non legal debate for a change!

I am so sorry to hear what Fortuna has gone through. I have heard of a similar case where an English friend of mine has twins in a local scuola materna comunale in Rome where despite 15 denuncie over the past 10 years for shouting and swearing at children the teacher happily sits tight in her job and no-one above her has any power to move her on.

I am sorry also what the Smiths say about comparing the systems. Unfortunately I think it comes down to where you live. I have to count myself lucky as I think we are getting a good deal in Rome (near Ostia). I have two children at Italian schools, one is in the scuola elementare, and the other the scuola materna comunale. We are lucky that in our area both of these are pretty fabulous schools, and I admire the teaching style as well as the level of education they get. Add to that their inquisitive characters and love of learning, as well as the advantage of being bilingual, I think they are doing pretty well.

As to physical violence by teachers in their schools, I have no doubts that the children would never get so much as a "to-to" (light smack on the bottom Italian style!), when an older teacher gave my 4 years old son the "chopping hand" sign on one of his hyperactive days, and I questioned what he had done to deserve that with one of her colleagues, they were all up in arms and insisted in their methodology that just should not have happened...instead my children have grown up through nursery school and scuola materna with lots of cuddles and affection. Interesting that in the UK I am told this wouldnt be allowed, as no physical contact is allowed in schools between teachers/pupils.

I honestly think some of my English friends here who send their children to international schools are throwing away money...anyway I hope that I will still think this in a few years, when we get to the media it may be a different ball game.

Charlotte

the media...my nephew goes to the media in a major city. He used to do Judo and football out of school. The school told his mother that he should not do any extra-curricular activities as it was taking away precious homework time. He gets so much homework now that he doesn't have time for them, so had to give up both sports. A tragedy! Mine starts the media next year and no way is he giving up karate. He's nearly black belt and he might need it to defend himself in class from the teachers.

:laughs::laughs::laughs:

Catholic Schools (private) are much stricter than state schools , they dont allow jumping around on desks and throwing things around the classroom , from my experience of Italian schools they are better. Otherwise the private schools that kids go to when they have to repeat their school year , yes they are very laid back. In Italy you dont always have to look at the school you want to send your child to, you try to gather info on the teachers or section that your child will be going into , You usually look for a very good Italian teacher and a good Maths teacher.
If the section or class has a small intake , that isen't usually a good thing , you have to beware , the sections and classes that are full usually have the best teachers .

oh my! this totally shocked me. My son is not in school in Italy (we live in the US most of the year), so I really can't comment on it...but I DO now that there is NO way I would kep my child in that school for even ONE more day. can you pull him out asap??!! I'm sorry, but that IS damaging to a child and it is totally inappropriate. Have you checkked into the homeschool laws so youo are cvered in the meantime while you figure out a more permanent solution? All the best - I'm so sorry you're going through that!! It must be so very stressful for a parent!

Fortuna, I am very sorry to hear what has happened to your child. I would also support the advice given by others about changing schools; however, this may be difficult where you live... but check about this possibility.

[quote=Musetta;81788] Have you checkked into the homeschool laws so youo are cvered in the meantime while you figure out a more permanent solution? [/quote]

I might be wrong but I don't think homeschooling is permitted in Italy.

Yes Garda Homes my son too does Karate and he will not be giving that up. We keep him at home on the days he does English as i refuse to allow him to attend this mad womans class and was told that religion is the only class he can be permitted to opt out and stay in school. I hope to hear something soon from the 'higher' authority but I don't expect them to do much. I assume she has been moved from school to school to school most of her career. I feel that if I was in the UK the teacher would have been suspended pending a full enquiry as as stated before this is not the first incident. We have parents evening onThurday and may be I should go and see her and see how she reacts to someone ready to take her on?
It worries me that this woman must feel that she is untouchable and it seems that she picks on the stranieri believing I would assume that there will be little or no come back.
I have a back ground in child protection and my concern is what is the bigger message that this is sending to children?

[quote]We keep him at home on the days he does English as i refuse to allow him to attend this mad womans class [/quote]

English class, i see now.

[quote]Personally my biggest concern at times is that the teaching lacks flexibility for individual children and their needs. For example our children obviously have a headstart with English but they still follow the same curriculum as their classmates. I have challenged this only to be told that it would be too problematic to deal with this, a lack of imagination, creativity and confidence perhaps on behalf of that particular teacher.[/quote]

Is it the same teacher?

I just wonder how well behaved any child can be in a class where they are more advanced than the rest.

Boredom must be a problem too.

Fortuna, I strongly recommend you to attend the parent-teacher night and to talk to this teacher calmly and in an assertive manner. Ask her what would be the solution to the problem so that your child can attend school as normally as possible.
Giovanni has raised some interesting points. Relationships between a teacher and a very advanced student are always difficult. It takes a lot of imagination and common sense to solve a situation like this and not all the teachers are prepared to deal with this problem.
If I had been in the teacher's role I would have enlisted your child as an assistant during the lessons and try to keep him occupied helping other students with the learning of English. This would have also given your son a sense of personal achievement which is currently lacking as he already knows most of what is being taught. Not all the children would like that job or do it very well, but it would be worth trying.
Under no circumstances a teacher should show any violence towards any student; however, bear in mind that, even if it would be very difficult to refrain from doing it, you should speak to the teacher calmly and politely to achieve what you want, which is the best for your child.
Also, try not to make derogatory comments in front of the child regarding the school or the school system. It would only add to his problems.
Good luck and keep us posted. I am sure that we all want a happy ending to the story.

Hi Fortuna
I read this thread yesterday and have been thinking about you - I sincerely hope that you manage to sort this awful problem out. Please let us know what the outcome is. I have 2 children in the italian school system and I have to say I am not very happy. The younger one is in 4th year at Elementary - and I have no real complaints (apart from having to buy everything including the toilet roll and photocopy paper !) However our other son is in the Secondary School and we have had so many problems. We have now moved him to another school but even here its not my ideal school. Today he told us that one of his class has been expelled (and a girl at that) and that they are now installing a video camera to observe this difficult class. I just despair - and I know that many other parents feel the same. I think the government here dont give enough funding / backing etc to education. But then as the politicians seem to be too busy spitting at each other and eating mortadella - then its no surprise is it ?
Please put your little boy first - no matter what.
Good luck
Karen

[quote=Karen;82093]........Today he told us that one of his class has been expelled (and a girl at that) ...........[/quote]

Aren't girls allowed to be expelled?