8739 Problem with water rising up through floor in house bought outside Parma

Hi What a shame , you need a geologist to do a "sondaggio" test what is in and under the ground where the room is built , they usually charge between 1000 to 1500 euro for there service , but at least you will know what the problem is .

As I understand it your floor level is some way under the level of the soil outside and you get the water coming in after heavy rain?
Had similar problems - the water will be very clear and the real killer will be when you get rain and a thaw after snow. There really is no way to stop it getting in by working from the inside - pressure's too great. Looks like a digging job outside below level of your floor and laying drainage pipes and gravel leading downhill coupled with a waterproof membrane against outside wall. Looks like a builder's job. PS if you have a tufo block wall the stuff will suck water upwards and stucco will just fall off.
Good luck with remedial work.

Try [url=http://www.casaverdeitalia.com]Property for sale in Italy tuscany liguria emilia romagna[/url] they are in Villa Minozzo which is about 1 hour from Parma and speaks alsorts of languages including english and italian.

woops that wasn't what I typed in. They helping us with our septic tank installation, try again www .casaverdeitalia. com

Many thanks to 'anxanum' and 'elliven' both really useful replies. So nice that you responded. And Bobcat.

Our villa has a lower floor which is just below ground level. There is a water pump, under ground, that is on permanent, to pump any rainwater away from the house. Once when an electrician came, he accidentely swiched the pump off and it flooded. Could you have the same?

Not very green.Having an electric pump running 24/7

a solution of digging drains,laying pipes etc woul be best.

Must be very stupid but why would you want a foor below ground level anyway.Are you short of space?

Perhaps Manopello to meet with the hight requirements for human habitation, as probably animals were kept there previously?. Our kitchen and sitting room have floors lower than the outside terrace, no flooding fortunately.
A

The sump pump that Scatterbrain refers to is unlikely to be running 24/7 as Manopellow suggests but would be left switched on but with a float switch the starts the pump as and when required and is a common solution in basement construction and perfectly suited to this type of problem as well as being enviromentaly sound !

[quote=manopello;82060]Not very green.Having an electric pump running 24/7[/quote]
It's very common in the USA for houses to have 'sump pumps' in the cellar: at the lowest point, a sump - pit bellow floor level - has an electric pump with a float switch connected to a drain. The pump doesn't run all the time; it only switches on when water collects in the sump which lifts the float and activates the switch.

Al

Edit: In other words, exactly what Thomppson said as I was typing... :bigergrin:

[quote=AllanMason;82078]It's very common in the USA for houses to have 'sump pumps' in the cellar: at the lowest point, a sump - pit bellow floor level - has an electric pump with a float switch connected to a drain. The pump doesn't run all the time; it only switches on when water collects in the sump which lifts the float and activates the switch.

Al

Edit: In other words, exactly what Thomppson said as I was typing... :bigergrin:[/quote]

Our's works on the same principal Allan. I just wondered if the same was involved here and either the pump had gone or become faulty, blocked ect. As why we have rooms below ground level, I have no idea, I didn't design or build it, just bought it that way. About 5ft of the rooms are below ground level and originally was a garage with a slope going down to it but now its three bedrooms and during the summer stays really cool. :yes:

Anyone of the above posts could, purely by good luck and coincedence, supply the solution your looking for. I personally would reccomend you get a proffesional survey done by a local geometra. It's the ONLY way. Doesn't matter how poor your Italian is, if you can get someone on the job, just point and say "aqua" & "perche" & "Voglio un soluzione"? Don't mean to sound patronising but property surveys cannot be done over thr internet. If the language is a major barrier then you will have to keep fishing until you find a local translator. Which reminds me you can often, on payment of course, get very good translations done by various Italian language schools who you should be able to contact on the net.
Sprat

[quote=bobcat;82049]woops that wasn't what I typed in. They helping us with our septic tank installation, try again www .casaverdeitalia. com[/quote]

Amazing of all the bars in all the world.....etc I emailed the above and got a prompt reply they have done some work not far from us!!!! He has offered to take a look so that is a great start. Your input is much appreciated. Thank You.

[quote=pilchard;82083]Anyone of the above posts could, purely by good luck and coincedence, supply the solution your looking for. I personally would reccomend you get a proffesional survey done by a local geometra. It's the ONLY way. Doesn't matter how poor your Italian is, if you can get someone on the job, just point and say "aqua" & "perche" & "Voglio un soluzione"? Don't mean to sound patronising but property surveys cannot be done over thr internet. If the language is a major barrier then you will have to keep fishing until you find a local translator. Which reminds me you can often, on payment of course, get very good translations done by various Italian language schools who you should be able to contact on the net.
Sprat[/quote]

I don't consider you patronising at all. I can see you must think we were complete fools getting into this situation. I didn't think I would find myself a common statistic either as we have had an appartment in italy since 1999. Believe it or not a couple of geometra were taken there on our behalf and said that if they had gone when the water wasn't there they wouldn't have found anything doing a survey. Of course now they at least know there is indeed a problem but nothing appears to be happening and once the summer comes everything will dry up for a few months. Hence I wish to take matters into my own hands from this end. I do feel I am getting the run around as I like you believe the survey is a must. Hmmmm we'll see. Thanks for you input.

[quote=manopello;82060]Not very green.Having an electric pump running 24/7

a solution of digging drains,laying pipes etc woul be best.

Must be very stupid but why would you want a foor below ground level anyway.Are you short of space?[/quote]

Certainly pumps and/or drains are both options. I am not excluding either option at present. My biggest problem is finding someone on site who can take the problem in hand and actually get on in a timely fashion to find the source of the problem and then resolve.

Re why would I want a sunken floor - I don't - who knows why its like that -it's historical. It is a rustico so who knows what was the original use of the room. Strange though because it is been restored for some time now and the owners parents had it. Will I ever know if they had the problem too - I doubt it although it does seem suspicious.

[quote=scatterbrain;82056]Our villa has a lower floor which is just below ground level. There is a water pump, under ground, that is on permanent, to pump any rainwater away from the house. Once when an electrician came, he accidentely swiched the pump off and it flooded. Could you have the same?[/quote]

Interesting thought. It is worth investigating although my husband seems to think not. I am going to establish this with the previous owners anyway if poss. Thanks

Good luck Susan and I hope your problem is resolved quickly. Keep up informed, it will be interesting to know what the problem was. :bigergrin:

The sump pump seems interesting - I only hope I never need one, as to building below ground - our room with probs is an ex cantina and was used for storing wine etc - perhaps cooler constructed that way at present builder Ferracci and his stout-hearted lads are digging away the soil and there's lots of it!, oh the roof's off as well but that's another story!

Be worth it in the end elliven. :yes:

I assume. being in Parma, you are on the flats - the water table will not be far below. If your room is below ground level it reminds me of our basement in Belgium - you may ask why would anyone build a basement in Belgium- it flooded on a regular basis and we had the pump which kicked in when the water got to a certain level - only in Winter so you should be fine in Summer. You do need to get some expert advice and perhaps look around at other properties and see, if they have rooms below soil level. what have they done to remedy the problem ps we only rented in Belgium so it wasn't a problem we had to solve.

Just to say I have also used casaverdeitalia, and would recommend them.

From a 'legalistic' point of view, if the room was converted to habitable status from an animal room, or cellar, within the last ten or so years, the floor should have been constructed as a suspended floor. It rather sounds to me as if it was not, because although there would remain the unlikely possibility of dampness in a suspended floor on a difficult site, the prospect of flooding is extremely remote.

If the floor is solid (in other words, a subfloor constructed directly on the earth or rock below) there is little or no possibility of draining it. You could excavate trenches around the building and drain these efficiently (as has been suggested), but in my opinion this work would be as expensive and less certainly effective than digging up the floor and restructuring it. (I am assuming that the pavimento is not 'precious', for example a Roman mosaic, and also that providing the usual airspace under the floor doesn't mean you get into an underpinning nightmare.)

I hope the recommended geometra comes up with something sensible for you. Good luck!

[quote=scatterbrain;82106]Be worth it in the end elliven. :yes:[/quote]

Thanks for your good wishes, the remedial and improvement works are extensive particularly as the lads have just discovered that the drains run [U]under[/U]the house and as a result much digging will be required-aargh. Incidentally pleased to discover that water ingress is more common than I thought - thought I was all on my owneyo.

[quote=elliven;82168]Thanks for your good wishes, the remedial and improvement works are extensive particularly as the lads have just discovered that the drains run [U]under[/U]the house and as a result much digging will be required-aargh. Incidentally pleased to discover that water ingress is more common than I thought - thought I was all on my owneyo.[/quote]

Dear Elliven,
Yes it sure is perverse but I agree with you - it is nice to know you are not alone with a problem. Shame you aren't nearer to really compare similarities/differences. At least it appears you know where you are going on solving it even if extensive. All the best. Keep us informed.

[quote=Charles Phillips;82166]From a 'legalistic' point of view, if the room was converted to habitable status from an animal room, or cellar, within the last ten or so years, the floor should have been constructed as a suspended floor. It rather sounds to me as if it was not, because although there would remain the unlikely possibility of dampness in a suspended floor on a difficult site, the prospect of flooding is extremely remote.

If the floor is solid (in other words, a subfloor constructed directly on the earth or rock below) there is little or no possibility of draining it. You could excavate trenches around the building and drain these efficiently (as has been suggested), but in my opinion this work would be as expensive and less certainly effective than digging up the floor and restructuring it. (I am assuming that the pavimento is not 'precious', for example a Roman mosaic, and also that providing the usual airspace under the floor doesn't mean you get into an underpinning nightmare.)

I hope the recommended geometra comes up with something sensible for you. Good luck![/quote]

I appreciate your input on this. You are right of course the floor is not suspended. Hmmm as to the legality of this - yet another question to ask someone. As "elliven" commented though isn't it more effective to stop something getting in rather than work from within. It certainly would seem less traumatic for us if that were true. It is quite nicely tiled. Although in itself that would not stop me from having internal work done. It is the thought of what we might initiate if we started to underpin the place that fills me with dread. I get the impression you have a related profession. Do you work in or around Parma at all?

[quote=herealready;82165]Just to say I have also used casaverdeitalia, and would recommend them.[/quote]

Thanks that is good to hear. Do you mind me asking what sort of work was done? Susan

[quote=F Bower;82162]I assume. being in Parma, you are on the flats - the water table will not be far below. If your room is below ground level it reminds me of our basement in Belgium - you may ask why would anyone build a basement in Belgium- it flooded on a regular basis and we had the pump which kicked in when the water got to a certain level - only in Winter so you should be fine in Summer. You do need to get some expert advice and perhaps look around at other properties and see, if they have rooms below soil level. what have they done to remedy the problem ps we only rented in Belgium so it wasn't a problem we had to solve.[/quote]

Hi I said near Parma for the sake of recognition. Actually we are in the hills west of Parma and our back garden slopes quite steeply. Perhaps naively I would not have expected flooding therefore. Although it does seem the geology of the area makes us more vulnerable than our neighbours who are higher up the slope to us. We were indeed fine last summer but cannot leave the place furnished in the winter in this state. Thanks for your input.

[quote=susan;82085]Amazing of all the bars in all the world.....etc I emailed the above and got a prompt reply they have done some work not far from us!!!! He has offered to take a look so that is a great start. Your input is much appreciated. Thank You.[/quote]

Thanks to you Bobcat I contacted the casaverdeitalia as you suggested. I have been in discussion with them since and the chap went to look around the outside of the property on saturday. He thinks he knows what the problem is but I quote "the solution is another issue" I need to call one evening this week to appreciate what he means but it 'bodes ill' I feel. I then need to get over there and meet him to move forward I guess. At least something is happening. Thanks again.

I'm joining this thread a bit late, just wondered - how much standing water are we talking about ... several cm's or just damp on the surface of the tiles? We had the latter and cured it by simple ventilation.

[quote=susan;82313]I appreciate your input on this. You are right of course the floor is not suspended. Hmmm as to the legality of this - yet another question to ask someone. As "elliven" commented though isn't it more effective to stop something getting in rather than work from within. It certainly would seem less traumatic for us if that were true. It is quite nicely tiled. Although in itself that would not stop me from having internal work done. It is the thought of what we might initiate if we started to underpin the place that fills me with dread. I get the impression you have a related profession. Do you work in or around Parma at all?[/quote]

'Stopping the damp getting in' - I understand what you are asking, but if your floor is above a 'spring' (which quite probably only manifests itself after a heavy rainfall), unfortunately the water is already 'in', and there is no guarantee that external drainage works will alleviate the problem.

You are right to be concerned about the potential 'extra unknown costs' of digging out in order to create a ventilated subfloor (maybe underpinning, the worst possible scenario). However, the technology has advanced quite a lot in the past decade, and whereas it might have been a crazily expensive thing to do some years ago, nowadays with 'igloos' (aka 'grancie' or 'iglu') you can do with an excavation of 150mm the same thing which previously required digging out to 400mm.

Anyway - I cannot seriously comment further without seeing your house, and I don't venture as far as Parma. I hope that the recommended geometra has his head screwed on! Feel free to come back and question me further when he has made his observations, and I will try and comment in general terms.

[quote=pigro;82322]I'm joining this thread a bit late, just wondered - how much standing water are we talking about ... several cm's or just damp on the surface of the tiles? We had the latter and cured it by simple ventilation.[/quote] It would be some special form of ventilation that could solve this one - I wish. No it is a couple of cms. Of course could be more or less at other times when we aren't there!!

i think you are right about ventialtion... standing water always requires more drastic intervention although depending on the building it can be quite easy...

you will find ground water not only springs can produce the effect and that sometimes when you have rainfall the water runs down to you outside wall and gets trapped into finding its way to the lowest point...your low floor

if you have access to your outside wall the simple solution is to dig away all soil to below the level of you floor... treat the wall to be non permeable and then lay in a land drain pipe to take the water off to one side of the house and away... infill with gravel with a porous membrane covering it so it doesnt clog up with earth

for a spring water rising problem either the pump or a new water proof barrier laid as the initail floor ...then with the igloo system as mentioned...although all these systems require airflow from the outside...and if you have no wall available above ground level on the outside that can allow air under the floor the solution becomes more difficut with walls being chased out to allow air pipes in to below floor level

the problems with underground rooms are quite common here... they were generalley used as storerooms with earth floors and when people had more money cotto floors... they managed to maintain a 12 c temp all year long and felt warm in winter and cold in summer...ie a typical larder or wine cellar... all very natural... oh yes with lime fixed walls infilled with earth... cement just did not come into it

the problems start in two ways... one ...laws on ceiling heights... requiring lots of digging out... and then the replacement of floors which were natural and allowed a natural ebb and flow of moisture... more importantley it was also combined with a natural airflow... because there were always gaps around windows and doors...

any modern cahnges to this require modern solutions to try and provide the same environment but by channelling or barrier methods to create both airflow and airbreaks...

the other thing we do is add interior heat ...which ends up causing even more problems..

now both in old or new italian houses the underground area is a common and popular option...older properties because its ground floor wasted space in modern day living... we do not need them as we have fridges... a useful pointer is always to look at places with at least three walls out of the ground...at ground level...it always makes solutions to adapting the groundfloor much easier and far cheaper

new houses because they have to build so much of the skeleton under ground to support the main structure are also generalley built with underground store areas...garages and even second kitchens... its easier because damp solutions can be incorporated into the build...but it is not rare to see brand new houses here with generous damp patches on the newly painted walls where things have not been done the right way... it seems to me italians just accept that....

anyway i think as has been said you are taking the best approach... get a survey... it could have a fairly easy solutiopn... as its not an unusual problem here... it offers a good insight into buying a property here and some of the other things to look out for... and for your sake i hope its easily resolvable... will be good to hear what the outcome is when you find the solution...good luck

I'm wondering if you can do anything with your back garden to prevent so much water gathering? You say its a steep slope.

Would terracing help? Or planting with more trees to absorb water through their roots?

It strikes me that if the amount of water coming to your house could be reduced your problems may be partly solved.

Also its not very good to have bare steeply slooping land behind or even in front of your house as very heavy rain could cause land slides (depending on the geology of the area.)It might be wise to plant this area up asap if you have not done so already.Honey locust trees were recommended before by someone on the forum.

Just been reading the posts and we had a similar problem but in our garage.

We had flooding mainly at the end of summer and winter due to heavy rain. Our garage is below ground level and we have a driveway that slopes down into the garage. There is a drain at the bottom of the slope but the problem with heavy rain the water just did not drain away quick enough.

After some investigating we found the problem.

The problem was that there has been much development with new houses in our area that the drainage system could not cope anymore with the amount of water going into the main pipes when it rained heavily. Our drain is at the bottom of our driveway and we are the last house connected to the main pipe so once the main pipes were full the water had no where to go except rise and into the garage.

Our comune have now upgraded the pipes to cope with the amount of water and our landlord changed the drainage system of the house and I'm pleased to say that our garage has never flooded since.

He changed all of the drainpipes (from the roof)to disperse rainwater in the garden rather than feeding them into the central drainage below ground.

He also installed a sump pump (as described by previous posters) so when the central drains become nearly full it pumps the excess water out into the street.

It may be not the solution in your case but if there has been any new construction around your area then it is worth looking into.

[quote=adriatica;82828]i think you are right about ventialtion... standing water always requires more drastic intervention although depending on the building it can be quite easy...

you will find ground water not only springs can produce the effect and that sometimes when you have rainfall the water runs down to you outside wall and gets trapped into finding its way to the lowest point...your low floor

if you have access to your outside wall the simple solution is to dig away all soil to below the level of you floor... treat the wall to be non permeable and then lay in a land drain pipe to take the water off to one side of the house and away... infill with gravel with a porous membrane covering it so it doesnt clog up with earth

for a spring water rising problem either the pump or a new water proof barrier laid as the initail floor ...then with the igloo system as mentioned...although all these systems require airflow from the outside...and if you have no wall available above ground level on the outside that can allow air under the floor the solution becomes more difficut with walls being chased out to allow air pipes in to below floor level

the problems with underground rooms are quite common here... they were generalley used as storerooms with earth floors and when people had more money cotto floors... they managed to maintain a 12 c temp all year long and felt warm in winter and cold in summer...ie a typical larder or wine cellar... all very natural... oh yes with lime fixed walls infilled with earth... cement just did not come into it

the problems start in two ways... one ...laws on ceiling heights... requiring lots of digging out... and then the replacement of floors which were natural and allowed a natural ebb and flow of moisture... more importantley it was also combined with a natural airflow... because there were always gaps around windows and doors...

any modern cahnges to this require modern solutions to try and provide the same environment but by channelling or barrier methods to create both airflow and airbreaks...

the other thing we do is add interior heat ...which ends up causing even more problems..

now both in old or new italian houses the underground area is a common and popular option...older properties because its ground floor wasted space in modern day living... we do not need them as we have fridges... a useful pointer is always to look at places with at least three walls out of the ground...at ground level...it always makes solutions to adapting the groundfloor much easier and far cheaper

new houses because they have to build so much of the skeleton under ground to support the main structure are also generalley built with underground store areas...garages and even second kitchens... its easier because damp solutions can be incorporated into the build...but it is not rare to see brand new houses here with generous damp patches on the newly painted walls where things have not been done the right way... it seems to me italians just accept that....

anyway i think as has been said you are taking the best approach... get a survey... it could have a fairly easy solutiopn... as its not an unusual problem here... it offers a good insight into buying a property here and some of the other things to look out for... and for your sake i hope its easily resolvable... will be good to hear what the outcome is when you find the solution...good luck[/quote]

Much appreciated. I won't comment on what you said at present. However I am going to print out yours and indeed all kind responses to my dilema. In a couple of weeks we have good an appointment arranged at the house in italy with the project manager suggested in an earlier thread (hooray) and my husband will take all these comments with him and put them to him during discussion. We will see what comes from this meeting. Thanks v much I will let you know what is said.

[quote=manopello;82845]I'm wondering if you can do anything with your back garden to prevent so much water gathering? You say its a steep slope.

Would terracing help? Or planting with more trees to absorb water through their roots?

It strikes me that if the amount of water coming to your house could be reduced your problems may be partly solved.

Also its not very good to have bare steeply slooping land behind or even in front of your house as very heavy rain could cause land slides (depending on the geology of the area.)It might be wise to plant this area up asap if you have not done so already.Honey locust trees were recommended before by someone on the forum.[/quote]

Quite a valid point thank you. Land slides are always indeed a worry aren't they but planting above is not possible in our scenario. We actually are the lower half of essentially 2 semis. The upper semi is surrounded by paving on one side and gravel the other as it decends to our section. Once we got established we were thinking of paving the gravelled side down towards our house. But who knows this may make the run off worse.

Below us is a terrace and below that a small orto on a fairly steep slope.

So we cannot do anything with the land above our property at least when it comes to planting. Maybe relaying pipes is an option across someone elses land if appropriate but that is it.

Our property is well established in fact part of it is hundreds of years old. So while the land must have been fairly stable for it to be still standing obviously something has changed. Whether this is actually due to land slippage elsewhere or a water course change in direction that remains the question.

Many thanks

[quote=susan;83704]................ We actually are the lower half of essentially 2 semis. The upper semi is surrounded by paving on one side and gravel the other as it decends to our section. Once we got established we were thinking of paving the gravelled side down towards our house. But who knows this may make the run off worse.

Below us is a terrace and below that a small orto on a fairly steep slope. ................................[/quote]

I think your posting may give a clue to a possible scenario for the 'flooding' problem.

It seems to me that it could well be the case that paving/gravel around the other [higher] semi is channeling water down to your land.

If this is happening, it could also be that 'your' land is acting as a 'sponge' and holding that water and letting it percolate into your sunken living room.

If this is the case, you could dig a trench right next to your house wall, preferably down to a depth below your sunken floor, and line the bottom and wall side of the trench with polythene. Lay a perforated pipe, to a fall, in the base of the trench and take the water away to the 'steep slope to the orto area', where it can be discharged onto the surface of the slope. Back-fill the trench alongside your house wall with well draining material - the gravel should do!

The pipe needs if possible to be laid at a fall of 1 in d [where d is the diameter of the pipe in mms - so a 4" or 10cm diameter pipe is laid at 1 in 100, but a larger diameter pipe needs a flatter fall.]

If you can't get a perforated pipe easily, you can make one by drilling a couple of rows of holes along the sides of an ordinary plastic pipe - but lay the pipe with the holes about 25 - 30 mm up the side of the pipe, not at the bottom.

This could well be worth trying.

Thanks - your input is going into the file tonight ready for my husbands trip to Italy tomorrow. He is going to discuss your suggestion along with the rest. Many thanks for your time in responding. Susan

We also had a problem with water in the cantina area of the house. I removed the brick floor and found the equivalent of a French drain underneath. Unfortunately it was completely blocked with clay, but after clearing that and opening the outlets then it has dried out. Hopefully the problem is solved, but I am waiting for the next rains to see if it that is the remedy before looking into it further.