8795 Banking query

Its a problem here, you normally have to order anything more than 1000........

Cash withdrawl via Bancomat card usually has pretty low monthly limits (regardless of account credit). Withdrawl from your own branch should be limited only by your available balance for a normal account unless we're talking 'funny money' amounts (in my provincial branch of banca Di Roma anyway).

[quote=deborahandricky;82611]Its a problem here, you normally have to order anything more than 1000........[/quote]

Strange, I've walked in off the street having not been to the branch in the previous six months and withdrawn various sums ranging from €2000 to €9000 with no prior notice and no pleading required.

yep, and I bet the mask and gun helped ....( Grin ).
As to ATM, you can get you bank to raise your limit, and you should also check your monthly allowance on your "Switch" type usage, banks normally put this around 500E per month.

Like Pigro said. Cash or cheque. No problems.

thanks for your prompt and, as always, helpful replies.

Our bank (unicredit) told us that we were allowed just one large cash withdrawal after which only cash of up to E1000 per day if we go into branch, or E750 through the bancomat. They said this was a new regulation brought in by the government to restrict Italy's cash economy (and subsequent tax evasion!). Therefore it's very interesting to hear that perhaps it's different from bank to bank...
Marco Mando

[quote=marco mando;82630]thanks for your prompt and, as always, helpful replies.

Our bank (unicredit) told us that we were allowed just one large cash withdrawal after which only cash of up to E1000 per day if we go into branch, or E750 through the bancomat. They said this was a new regulation brought in by the government to restrict Italy's cash economy (and subsequent tax evasion!). Therefore it's very interesting to hear that perhaps it's different from bank to bank...
Marco Mando[/quote]

Sorry, almost forgot....MM cheques, as good as cash

incredible - given that the money you're trying to withdraw has already been paid into your account, the legislation must be aimed purely at preventing you from scraping together enough readies to pay cash for goods/services in the black then? Fat lot of good that will do! The majority of such transactions are well under €1000/day anyway, and those that aren't will swiftly get structured into more 'manageable' payment terms. BTW, last time I withdrew a big lump sum like this was around August 07. So if legislation has changed, its been since then.

Sounds like anti-laundering move.

Lots of illegal things result in piles of 5s,10s and 20s. Kind of a hassle to buy something big with a wad of 10s. So you need to exchange the money for clean bigger bills.

OTOH last month nobody mentioned anything to me when I went to the bank. I asked for a cheque but they offered cash.

[quote=marco mando;82630]

Our bank (unicredit) told us that we were allowed just one large cash withdrawal after which only cash of up to E1000 per day if we go into branch, or E750 through the bancomat. They said this was a new regulation brought in by the government to restrict Italy's cash economy (and subsequent tax evasion!). Therefore it's very interesting to hear that perhaps it's different from bank to bank...
Marco Mando[/quote]

Whether other banks will follow I suspect so; as your bank suggests itis all to do with minimising the risk of tax evasion under Il decreto legge 223/2006 dealing with hiding income and tax evasion.

From the 1st July 2007 to 30 June 2008 the self employed can only receive a E500 maximum in cash - if a bill exceeds that it must be paid by bonifico or cheque - or paid in lots of inconvenient E500 amounts! From 1st July 2008 it drops to E100!!!!!

We also withdrew more than E1000 during our last visit in November without any problems; however, you may remember that the government was getting tougher with cash transactions and that every shopkeeper or business was very anxious to give you the "scontrino" before you left the place. Apparently they had been fining businesses who did not worry about that. This is, obviously, another step in the same direction.

[quote=anne2;82669]Whether other banks will follow I suspect so; as your bank suggests itis all to do with minimising the risk of tax evasion under Il decreto legge 223/2006 dealing with hiding income and tax evasion.

From the 1st July 2007 to 30 June 2008 the self employed can only receive a E500 maximum in cash - if a bill exceeds that it must be paid by bonifico or cheque - or paid in lots of inconvenient E500 amounts! From 1st July 2008 it drops to E100!!!!![/quote]
This is quite different - the first problem referred to individuals being restricted in the amount of their own money which they could withdraw from their own bank for their own use. The second is about small business being told what methods of payment are acceptable for state accounting purposes.

Both are highly irritating for those affected, but I can at least see method & possible results with the latter. The former is just pointless; it will not stop anything, just make things more tedious.

Can anyone clarify whether the personal banking bit is now law, or whether marco's bank have adopted it either arbitrarily or ahead of it becoming law?

[quote=Gala Placidia;82672]We also withdrew more than E1000 during our last visit in November without any problems; however, you may remember that the government was getting tougher with cash transactions and that every shopkeeper or business was very anxious to give you the "scontrino" before you left the place. Apparently they had been fining businesses who did not worry about that. This is, obviously, another step in the same direction.[/quote]

Worse then that. Get caught three times [?] and you get shutdown for a day. It only gets more serious.

I'm still not sure which law he is being hassled about.

I know Jan 1st everything is supposed to use IBAN instead of old Italian version. Something could have come in at the same time.

It sounds like different banks in different regions interpreting new rules as strictly or leniently as they want. Nobody in my branch of the Bank of Sicily seems to be aware of any new rules. Every time I go in (most recently last month) I see aged customers withdrawing and depositing vast quantities of cash without question. I am free to do likewise if I wish. My architect told me that the banks are supposed to report cash withdrawals of more than 10,000 Euros but it all seems rather vague.

The 10K rule isn't really new. It's a worldwide rule in fact. Used to be 12.5K in Europe but got lowered. Italian banks didn't lower it at the time and got hassled over it. They may have finally complied with the 10K level instead of the older higher one.

personally I don't care about withdrawls being reported (or queried theeafter if they look suspicious) ... but if my bank were to prevent me from accessing all my funds whenever I want, I'd vote with my feet PDQ. If I couldn't move my direct debits to a foreign Euro bank account (and so just close the Italian account entirely), they'd end up with just enough in my account to cover the D/D's. The rest would withdrawn as fast as their stupid policy allows. Some would be paid into a UK (or other European) bank for access by ATM for normal cash requirements ... the rest would be kept [STRIKE]in the shoebox under the bed[/STRIKE] somewhere safe.

Me to.

But then I'm already only keeping emergency funds and enough to deal with Enel etc bills.

What is really annoying me is that they are creating problems when you are withdrawing your own money, which has already been declared when you originally deposited it into your account.... It does not make any sense. I think that we are going to go back to the old sock under the mattress....

Hi

Same for us, although we live here permanently we do not use our Italian bank for anything other than paying dd's and the annual cheque for accountant. We have also found it very straightforward with HSBC to just send a fax requesting a funds transfer and within 1 o 2 days it has landed in Tuscany.

With our HSBC account we also get to withdraw money (euros) from our UK accounts without charges and the rate is acceptable. Using british c cards means we can pay these off from the uk bank.

This has worked well up to now.

[url=http://www.tuscanyfortwo.com]Tuscanyfortwo.com[/url]

this is my first post, sorry if i sound rude but is this really serious? you people with bank accounts there must surely have got a letter telling you about this before it happened? i've read a bit about italian banks being bad but i find this scary!

Not bad but different. Our bank is run totally by women, all of whom dress for work as for a night out clubbing, but they are all very helpful and very efficient, you just need to get your head around the fact it is not a UK highstreet branch of Barclays and enjoy it.
A

[quote=Gala Placidia;82727]What is really annoying me is that they are creating problems when you are withdrawing your own money, which has already been declared when you originally deposited it into your account.... It does not make any sense. I think that we are going to go back to the old sock under the mattress....[/quote]

yes,it's going to be applied pretty well all over from what i can see.But please excuse me i don't really understand what the fuss is about why on earth would one want/need to withdraw thousands of euro anyway from their account.Imean if you're making a big purchase you'd normally pay by bank transfer or whatever and even smaller amounts by card or cheque anyway..
or am i missing something.

I think that what is annoying most of us is the fact that they are putting so many forms of government or bank control over what you do with your own money which is declared and taxed accordingly, anyway. I agree with you, most of us considering a big purchase will pay by credit card, bank transfer or cheque... I think that it is the "Big Brother" unnecessary controls that upset us.

[quote=Gala Placidia;82765]I think that what is annoying most of us is the fact that they are putting so many forms of government or bank control over what you do with your own money which is declared and taxed accordingly, anyway. I agree with you, most of us considering a big purchase will pay by credit card, bank transfer or cheque... I think that it is the "Big Brother" unnecessary controls that upset us.[/quote]

This is a particularly British obsession (see no identity cards) in the U.S.A. cash transactions over usd.5.000 (which is very little) are registered for federal use.The same people who worry about big brother are still using credit cards,gps satellite navigators,have health/tax code numbers and use computers/telephones all the time they ALREADY know everything about us if they want/need to...la festa è già finita.......
when people book in here we take ALL their passports INCLUDING infants for registration some people say is one (passport) enough ,the law under which this registration process was instated was june 1931 ( everyone knows what was going on then)but on reflection it's not a problem for the majority of honest people around..

Sebastiano, I have Spanish and Australian dual nationality. In Spain, we have ID cards and the Central Bank checks transactions over 5,000 Euros (I think). I am all in favour of ID cards as it is a quick way of identifying yourself and if you do not have anything to hide it should not be a problem. Actually, I would love to have a microchip implanted with all my personal data so I do not have to worry about stolen or lost documents and all my health and medication particulars could be available in any emergency. As for the banks... I am lately a bit annoyed with them, they are starting to take longer to transfer monies.... it looks as if they are the owners of your own money.... and then, they charge a lot, give very little service in return, manage your investments with very little performance and make enormous profits for themselves.

Sebastiano,

I'm not worried about big brother. I don't care if they scrutinise all my transactions over a given threshold. I don't care if that threshold is zero. Just as long as the scrutiny doesn't unduly inconvenience or delay me in going about my own lawful business.

I'll be very happy if they manage to cut out the cash economy by ensuring all commercial transactions over 100€ are settled by bonifico/cheque - would save me the risk of lugging big wads of cash around every time I come to Italy to pay off all the tradesmen who currently expect cash in hand.

Just as long as the Banks start issuing cheque books with more than 10 cheques AND they stop charging such ridiculous fees for the cheque book/cheque processing etc. ... but of course there's no chance of that, the banks will make hay while the sun shines, result being more cost & inconvenience for me. Realistically, cheques are dinosaurs too. They're being entirely phased out in most first world banking systems (as they are slow, error prone and costly for the banks to administer). This legislation (if that's what it is, I still remain to be convinced) would fly in the face of progress in that respect.

Regardless, the fundamental problem with the situation that the OP describes is that they are denying him full and free access to his own funds, apparently on the premise that he may intend do something naughty with them. That is simply bad & lazy goverance, no matter how you try to use the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" defence.

You previously asked why anyone would need to access large bundles of cash. If these measures result in every tradesman actually accepting ony cheque/bonifico then sure, that need diminishes greatly. However, there are still several cases where I may need a wad of cash in my back pocket:

- large, private 2nd hand purchases (eg. buying a car or sit-on lawnmower etc.)

- going on a long trip within Italy, where you need the security of cash to cover travel, subsistence etc. & contingencies for medical/other emergencies etc. Yes, a bancomat or visa is fine up to a point - but they do have problems. Either unwittingly exceeding card limits, finding the bank or retailer communications network down, being somewhere rural on a sunday with no ATM's within 50km radius etc. etc.

- merchant receiving a "card declined/manual referral" instruction back from an EFTPOS terminal when they try to take your payment. They tend to say "your card was declined, give me another card or cash" instead of doing what they should (calling the visa auth centre for a manual authorisation code). This situation is very common - upto 10% of card transactions get flagged for this treatment on a random basis (or when the usage pattern on your card is unusual ... like it will be when you go on a long trip).

I could go on with more scenarios, but the specifics aren't important. Its my money, and if I deposit it with a bank it's for safe keeping until I want to use it. That's the core function of a bank. None of their (or govt's) concern whether/when I decide to withdraw it, though they're welcome to note & audit the withdrawl.

[B][I]So, once again - can anyone state conclusively whether this limitation of cash withdrawl from bank accounts is now a statutory requirement (or will become so by a known date)? [/I][/B]If not, it's a storm in a teacup and not worth further debate ... if you don't like what your current bank is imposing, up to you to change banks. As chief Wiggum pointed out above, surely the banks would need to communicate such changes to the terms and conditions of the account? Surely therefore that would have explained whether the measures were introduced at the bank's discretion, or as a result of national/regional legislation?

No evidence of this being implimented in my bank (as of 10 days ago)