8759 hunting season

ok ,we have been through this before..........but, when does the season stop?
For the last 6 months my road ( I say that 'cos i own the first 50 mts of it, yes, its a public road, but, from a request that we asked, 'cos a house further down was raped of roof tiles,stair treads etc etc,) there was a thick chain put across ( with my permission,but we dont hold keys) ( thats all bollocks put to one side I hope ).
So, this morning I wake up..............30 small cars cars, with even smaller guys inside,camo gear, orange jackets (lol).....storming around, guns abalzing............

2 questions

1 Do the red hunting hunting signs mean nothing.........
2 was beer only invented ,so ugly woman can get laid too?

Category

General chat about Italy

Hello Deborahandricky,
"Yes" those beer drinking hunters do get laid! Since most of them are your local professionals such as doctors, vets, medics and lawyers lets hope you never need their help?
At least they know when the season is finished unlike you.
Perhaps you should read the rules regards those so called red signs then you might know whether your area is currently a no hunting zone or whether hunting is allowed.
I would suggest that you learn to be alittle more acceptable of their traditions as they are of ours.

I think the point D an R are trying to make is that they do not want hunters on their land, I can understand this, but the law apparantly says unless you put sign and/or fences up they can go where they want.
I have 4 fields where my 3 kids, 3 cats and 1 dog have freedom to play, so I do not want anyone on my land with a gun, but it would cost a fortune to fence it all in and I dont really want a fence all round the place anyway.
Surely common sense would suggest using guns on private land where children play is not a good idea.

Actually when you look at the issue objectively you will find the majority of Italians do not want hunting to continue in its present[I] unregulated [/I]way.These are not just 'townies' they are ordinary people from across Italy who do not want this sort of disturbance and danger happening close to their properties.

The mis-informed may believe that [B]all [/B]of these hunters are simply taking something home to eat to supplement the family's budget whereas according to LIPU the hunters are involved in the illegal capture/killing of protected and rare birds for which Italy is facing millions of euros of fines from the EU.Volunters working for LIPU have been attacked and had their vehicles damaged because they've tried to stop the illegal killing of protected birds.

Any group of people can intimidate another group by size alone but when they are also brandishing weapons this is goes beyond simple intimidation and becomes a threat.

Not so many hunters this year around my land in Marche, thank goodness, and I havent spotted my doctor, vet or surgeon amongst the few little old men trotting around, my Italian neighbours are not keen on them either, so thats one "tradition" thats hopefully on the way out.
A

[quote=manopello;82265]Actually when you look at the issue objectively you will find the majority of Italians do not want hunting to continue in its present[I] unregulated [/I]way.These are not just 'townies' they are ordinary people from across Italy who do not want this sort of disturbance and danger happening close to their properties.

Any group of people can intimidate another group by size alone but when they are also brandishing weapons this is goes beyond simple intimidation and becomes a threat.[/quote]

Manopello,
Hate to pick you up, but Italian hunting laws are far more regulated than most other countries in Europe. Remember England doesn't have guns yet every year more and more young people are killed with guns in gang violence.
You stand more chance of being shot on a Saturday night walking down any major city high street in England than you do here.
I think its strange that you make the point of large groups victimising small groups. Is that not what Goverments do everyday to the common person.
I am not saying that hunting here is perfect, but the hunting comission is trying to make changes by introducing more rules and books to educate future hunters.
Also you must realise that hunting here is greatly limited to certain area's and its part of a person's decision to move to a area where there is hunting. I wish more people moving to Italy would take that into account. There are many beautiful regions of Italy that have houses to buy and restore without any hunting.

The point I was trying to make was that [B]we do have signs [/B]all over the area around our house and land, the area is zoned for no hunting.they are [SIZE="4"]big[/SIZE] [COLOR="Red"]red[/COLOR] and plentyful.
A year ago were sitting in our garden, and heard shotgun fire from another part of the valley, and then the sound of buckshot hitting our roof.
I cant ever remember that happening , even when we used to be drinking in the Old Kent Rd............

[quote=il cacciatore;82273]but the hunting comission is trying to make changes by introducing more rules and books to educate future hunters.
[/quote]

If they dont read the signs, what makes you think they will read the books !!

Well DandR I find that hard to believe you never heard gun fire on old kent road. There have been several shooting incidents just last year outside one of the many nightclubs on that road. Its well known as one of the poorest road in London with a long history of violent crime from murder to muggings. Coming from there to here must be a walk in the park to yourselves!

[quote=il cacciatore;82286]Well DandR I find that hard to believe you never heard gun fire on old kent road. There have been several shooting incidents just last year outside one of the many nightclubs on that road. Its well known as one of the poorest road in London with a long history of violent crime from murder to muggings. Coming from there to here must be a walk in the park to yourselves![/quote]

As to the poorest st......only on the Monopoly board ........:bigergrin:

[quote=il cacciatore;82249]Hello Deborahandricky,
"Yes" those beer drinking hunters do get laid! Since most of them are your local professionals such as doctors, vets, medics and lawyers lets hope you never need their help?[/quote]

Local? The big complaint from the farmers in our area is that none of the hunters are local. They are all wealthy (I suppose that explains vets, lawyers and doctors being on the list) and they all travel in from Rome, about 90 minutes drive away. That's not "local" by any stretch of the imagination.

They also tend without exception to be surly, mean, abusive and abusers of other people's property. Why should I have to spend my time picking up the shotgun cartridges tossed to the ground? Why should I, on my own land, be in danger of being winged or blinded by some oaf who doesn't understand elementary gun safety? Why is my car peppered with buckshot falling from the sky? And why, oh why, do I have to spend my time cleaning human excrement, smashed beer bottles, cigarette packets and beer tins from my land and my pig stys?

[quote=lotaresco;82303]Local? The big complaint from the farmers in our area is that none of the hunters are local. They are all wealthy (I suppose that explains vets, lawyers and doctors being on the list) and they all travel in from Rome, about 90 minutes drive away. That's not "local" by any stretch of the imagination.

good point well made.........

And I think this is what most [I]ITALIANS [/I]would say too!!!

Sounds like the British football hooligans have revented themselves as Italian hunters?
From personal experiance I have seen nothing like that. The hunters here in Macerata/Ascoli area of Le marche couldn't be further from your depiction. They much prefer a glass of vino than cans of beer.
If its true that your car was really "Peppered" ie; actual damage to your car than did you report this to the carabiniere?
Also if you having having these problems have you reported this to your region office. They have Marshalls who patrol on hunting days to control hunters and ensure safety.
Agian would like to refer you to previous text. Its far more dangerous in the uk. See todays news 16yr old boy dies of gun shots this morning and I wouldn't even start on the dangers of living in America and their gun crime.
Neither am I excusing the behaviour of your so called hunters if they are in fact acting in such a way. I just would like to know what steps you have taken to stop thier behaviour?
Also are you sure take these incidents are in fact the hunters as they seem more like youth behaviour?

Moved to : Italiauncovered.co.uk

vada via dalla mia terra in a loud enough voice should be understood!

Actually Oneto 15, it did used to be effective in English, but my Italian neighbour taught me the words in Italian, he uses them often, so now I have the choice,
A

[quote=Angie and Robert;82411]Actually Oneto 15, it did used to be effective in English, but my Italian neighbour taught me the words in Italian, he uses them often, so now I have the choice,
A[/quote]

What are the words Angie? And are they effective?

Too rude for the public domain I am afraid Neilo.
A

Are these 30 little people not the same people to which this country belongs? That give it its colour. I'd prefer 30 little old hunters armed with rifles to 30 shell suited teenagers armed with knives and big mouths.
Le Marche is frustrating at times, but after 4 years here I am sort of on their side now. Let them keep their traditions as long as they can. The next generation are at risk of losing everything that makes this area so wonderful.
But yes, every now and then, I want to explode at them too!! Cultural differences!
Jo Williams
[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url]

[quote=jowilliams;84380]Are these 30 little people not the same people to which this country belongs? That give it its colour. I'd prefer 30 little old hunters armed with rifles to 30 shell suited teenagers armed with knives and big mouths.
Le Marche is frustrating at times, but after 4 years here I am sort of on their side now. Let them keep their traditions as long as they can. The next generation are at risk of losing everything that makes this area so wonderful.
But yes, every now and then, I want to explode at them too!! Cultural differences!
Jo Williams
[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url][/quote]

Sorry but these type of hunters are amatuers, they shoot anything that moves without regard for any protected spieces. Whilst heritage is indeed important as is custom,these change and its not just strangers to Italy who do not like these outdated events,The new generation of Italian does not like it either.

Afterall this is also the land from where came the spanish inquisition,and i dare say a few in the vatican would like to keep that custom going too!

Hey I invite you to come and sit in my backyard when they are popping off. you might dive for cover then. And my Italian neighbours fail to see the colourfull aspects of their behavoiur. It is not accepted in my area of Marche. Perhaps some customs need to die a death, my neighbours are in their 70s and do not support hunting. Your hunters must be very old indeed, bit scarey a 90 year old with a gun!
A

You are perhaps right. There are "good" hunters and "bad."
I am vegitarian and the idea of hunting isn't easy for me. I don't eat meat because at the age of 11 a neighbour gave me lunch and then told me that it was the lamb that I had saved when the mother died and bottle fed etc. I do not however have a problem with people eating meat. I have a problem with meat farming. Not with hunting. Nature is nature.
Where I live in Petritoli, hunting is a fundamental part of the community. It is a big social event and if I understand correctly, they are pretty useless as hunters. When I say big social event, I only mean that on sundays you can see them gathered at the bar early for their coffee, there is no parading of dead animals or anything.
Also in the countryside many peoplekeep rabbits and fowl for food.
I would prefer if that wasn't the case, but in the UK you can go to the supermarket and buy a whole chicken for 3 euros. That chicken has had a better quality of life than the one that you find in the chicken tikka masala further along the aisle.
I prefer the italian system.
There are bad italian hunters, particularly those that kill protected birds. There are people like this in the UK too.
In the UK there is too much political correctness, I hope it never arrives in Italy. That was the point of my email, not a defence of hunters. I don't like the idea of hunters, but if Italy loses that and moves towards the supermarket chicken model, animals are going to suffer far more.
You can hatch an egg and create a full grown chicken in 18 days (or so I am told) by pumping it full of steroids and water. Italy will hopefully resist that!!
Jo
[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url]

Well Jo.
We tried to save a falcon that had been poisoned by hunters presumably to stop it killing all the small birds to feed and live its own life. Unfortunately it was too late to save it. Praise be to the hunters that put poison out that will kill your pet dog as has been written in posts. Most come from other areas as has been noted in other posts, just for the pleasure of killing what they can and not for a food source.
So you prefer the Italian system of hunting?

Just as another point, I used to shoot as well, rabbits for the 3 dogs we had. One day by accident I shot a fox cub in some scrub, and that was the end of my shooting as that was the most distressing thing to me.

Sorry but that is not the "Italian" way of hunting. It is the way of hunting! I as a child ran home to my parents house with a shot buzzard in my hands, twice. I was in Wales.

[quote=jowilliams;84392]Also in the countryside many peoplekeep rabbits and fowl for food.
I would prefer if that wasn't the case, but in the UK you can go to the supermarket and buy a whole chicken for 3 euros. That chicken has had a better quality of life than the one that you find in the chicken tikka masala further along the aisle.
I prefer the italian system.
...
In the UK there is too much political correctness, I hope it never arrives in Italy. That was the point of my email, not a defence of hunters. I don't like the idea of hunters, but if Italy loses that and moves towards the supermarket chicken model, animals are going to suffer far more.
...
You can hatch an egg and create a full grown chicken in 18 days (or so I am told) by pumping it full of steroids and water. Italy will hopefully resist that!![/quote]
Really doubt it's possible to force a chicken to grow to commercially salable size in just 18 days. Possibly you're thinking of the 18 [I]weeks[/I] it takes for a chicken to reach sexual maturity and start laying?

I don't think it's justified to be so positive about the current standards of animal welfare in Italy. Driving around the countryside near my place, one often gets whiffs of that horrible smell which intensive chicken barns give off. It's even more common to see little flocks of chickens and ducks kept in dire conditions outside houses.

You mention how many Italians in the countryside raise rabbits for slaughter. Your admiration of the Italian way of dong things suggests you probably have never seen the conditions in which those animals are usually kept.

My observations of how animals are treated by those living around me has led me to have a rather jaundiced view. I acknowledge that here are some Italians who treat animals (and nature in general) with respect, but there are also a lot of them who consider animals to be no more than objects. I'm thinking of the hunters who blast songbirds; my neighbour who doesn't bother with stunning his pigs before slaughter but instead hangs them up by their back legs and cuts their throat; drivers who will swerve to run over a snake crossing the road; people who keep their dogs tied on a short chain outside year-round (or, alternatively, allow them to freely roam the countryside); and, as has been mentioned, those charming Italian folk who put out poison to kill raptors or - and I suspect this is more likely - any truffle-hunting dogs brought onto a patch the poisoner wants to keep clear of competitors.

I suppose it might be possible for some to see all these behaviours as local "colour" and traditions worthy of respect, but it seems to me [I]that[/I] attitude would truly be Daily Telegraph Man's dreaded Political Correctness. :eeeek:

I like Italy and many Italians, but I threw out my rose-tinted specs a long time ago.

Hi,
I was told about the 18 days by a canadian whose job it was to make the chicken tikka masala. First he had to cut the growths out. I don't know if it is true.
I have no illusions about animal welfare in Italy and neither do I wear rose tinted glasses.
My personal experiences with the hunters here has been very positive. They have always had respect for the people living in the countryside around Petritoli. Perhaps we are just lucky. In the UK a friend of mine was struck across the face by a fox hunter when he asked them to get off his land.
I am also aware of the other points that you have raised and indeed my own dog very nearly died last year through poisoning. Then again a neighbour in the UK didn't like another neighbour's dog so he shot it several times with an air rifle. Puppy drowning was also quite common.
My point is that the problem of animal welfare is universal, not limited to the Italian countryside. The problem here is perhaps the lack of controls and education. It isn't that the Italians are a particularly cruel race (I could give a long list of other cruel instances that occured in Wales, so perhaps it is just us Welsh and the Italians that have a nasty streak in us). As you say, there are some italians who treat animals with respect, and probably a lot more than there were 50 years ago. Hopefully things will continue to improve as the elderly uneducated farmers slowly die off. Certainly when my dog was poisoned the locals were mainly shocked and horrified.
This is Italy, it is not paradise. It is very easy to come here and enjoy the landscape, the wonderful food and wine, the festas and sagras etc etc and then complain about anything that doesn't suit us. You have to love Italy, warts and all, hard though that may be at times. I must say that here in the countryside around Petritoli, the locals with their small holdings tend to keep the animals in relatively good conditions. I can't say the same for the commercial chicken and pig farms where conditions are awful, but I am not sure how good they are in the UK.
Nearly forgot, yes dogs on chains is something that I really do dislike. It is perhaps the only thing for which I can't really find a UK comparison in view of the great numbers which are kept in this condition.
My God, what a hot potato this hunting and animal welfare issue is!!
Regards
Jo

Hello,
I have just read the last page of replies and am really quite disturbed by what has been said. Are Hunters really excepted to take the blame for all the animal cruelty in Italy.
Where's the evidence?
As is in many countries around Europe not all people who go out with a gun to kill animals are hunters. These so called people have a very well known title "Poachers" and these are the ones who commit many of the acts that are described by others in this thread. It's a very old offence poaching and carries heavy penalties. Please do not associated all hunters as he same as these poachers.
Also I have heard of many cases of poisoning of animals and bird but often this is no more than one persons word. Evidence such as forensic testing a sample of a dead creatures blood would be appropriate evidence not just finding an ill "falcon".and saying it must of been poisoned.
As I said in a earlier text I have seen none of this so called behaviour by Italian hunters and I'm on the inside. I cannot vouch for other area's of Italy, but around Amandola/Sarnano area of Le Marche the hunters seem to act according to the hunting laws.
Please if other's have real factual evidence please provide it?
Again if these acts are occurring such as vandalism, criminal damage and poisoning of protected species I would suggest contacting the appropriate authorities.

With regards to intensively-reared birds, the UK standard is hatched to slaughter in 39 days. I don't eat chicken that's pumped full of antibiotics and raised in this way.

I found out recently from a neighbour the reason why so many 'wild' birds are kept in tiny cages around the houses: they sing and attract similar types that can then be shot. Lovely. The guy we bought our house from had several thrushes kept this way. Nice tradition. There are some things that we can only hope gradually lose their popularity.

[quote=Skichi;84529]I found out recently from a neighbour the reason why so many 'wild' birds are kept in tiny cages around the houses: they sing and attract similar types that can then be shot. Lovely. The guy we bought our house from had several thrushes kept this way. Nice tradition. There are some things that we can only hope gradually lose their popularity.[/quote]
Quite possibly a hunting expert will rush to let us know that such barbaric things [I]never[/I] happen these days, but I've heard that an even lovlier tradition is to keep these lure birds in covered cages indoors for most of the year. The idea being that, having been in perpetual gloom and out of hearing of other birds fo so long, they'll sing even harder when taken outside by a charming chap with a shotgun who feels the need to demonstrate his masculinity by blasting a few little birds.

I'm in Holland at the moment and one of the things that always strikes me when arriving in The Netherlands is how many more birds there are here and how relaxed they are about humans compared to the numbers and how they behave in Italy. The same applies in France, the UK and other countries where there is a more enlightened attitude toward nature and wildlife.

As an example of the sort of behaviour I mean: it's almost expected in the UK that a Robin will appear looking for a snack whenever one starts digging in the garden, but I've never seen this behaviour in Italy. Rather, the most I see of birds around our place is a few of them quickly fluttering off to what they think is a safe distance whenever I step out of the door.

No matter what hunting apologists may say and no matter what blinkered Italophiles may want to believe, there is an obvious explanation for the relative scarcity of birds in Italy and their fear of humans. It involves those quaint little men with a shotgun on one shoulder and canvas sack full of small corpses on the other. Whether he has a piece of paper in his pocket which allows him to call himself a "hunter" or whether he lacks said document and so can be labelled a "poacher" seems to me irrelevant: both are part of a culture in which it is considered acceptable to kill for pleasure. In many other parts of the world, it's generally accepted by civilised people that getting enjoyment from killing another living creature is a sign of psychological pathology, not a wonderful tradition and a great way to spend a day

[quote=giovanni;84382]Sorry but these type of hunters are amatuers, they shoot anything that moves without regard for any protected spieces. Whilst heritage is indeed important as is custom,these change and its not just strangers to Italy who do not like these outdated events,The new generation of Italian does not like it either.

Afterall this is also the land from where came the spanish inquisition,and i dare say a few in the vatican would like to keep that custom going too![/quote]

Well, the Inquisition originated in France, as I already explained in an earlier post on a differente thread; however, I fail to see what the Inquisition of the Vatican have to do with hunting, which is probably the first sport practiced by man.... out of necessity...

[quote=Gala Placidia;84533]Well, the Inquisition originated in France, as I already explained in an earlier post on a differente thread; however, I fail to see what the Inquisition of the Vatican have to do with hunting, which is probably the first sport practiced by man.... out of necessity...[/quote]

I think you know which inquisition i meant, but if we are going to be padantic,the first one was actually southern france, and NORTHERN ITALY.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition]Medieval Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Medieval_Inquisition]Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].

But really my reference was for outdated modes.

As to the hunting question, the fact is in the oldern days they hunted for food.

When was the last time you eat golden eagle? or otter, the alpine lynx, white tailed eagle?ect ect.,well you better get your order in,as they are in short supply!

Nothing wrong with hunting for food, but barbaric killing off of local indeginus animals just for fun isn't hunting.

And when people hunted for sport in the old days, they were few who could do this,so real harm to nature was limited.

Now any doc,tailor or student could do it......

[quote=AllanMason;84531]no matter what blinkered Italophiles may want to believe, there is an obvious explanation for the relative scarcity of birds in Italy and their fear of humans. It involves those quaint little men with a shotgun on one shoulder and canvas sack full of small corpses on the other. Whether he has a piece of paper in his pocket which allows him to call himself a "hunter" or whether he lacks said document and so can be labelled a "poacher" seems to me irrelevant: both are part of a culture in which it is considered acceptable to kill for pleasure. In many other parts of the world, it's generally accepted by civilised people that getting enjoyment from killing another living creature is a sign of psychological pathology, not a wonderful tradition and a great way to spend a day[/quote]
I'm sorry to disagree with you Al, but my experience of Italy, having lived here full-time for 7 years and spending large amounts of time before that here with my wife's relatives, is different.

In the UK, I lived for many years in Norfolk for my sins. There is, I assure you, no shortage of rather aggressive little men wandering about the countryside with loaded shotguns and hunting dogs. In fact, I saw (and heard) a great many more hunters there than here - and I live in the Lomellina now, bird heaven.

As far as little birds are concerned, they used to be hunted for food - not for pure pleasure. Italy was (and still is in many parts) a very poor country and the catching of birds - any size and type - represented the stark choice between eating or not. It is all too easy to forget that hunting is traditionally done for food, not just sport. I have to say, however, that I have many memories of eating small parts of small birds when I was younger and visiting relatives that lived in France. A plate heaped full of Lark's livers was very popular there then, I recall. Rather a disconcerting sight, I have to add.

I must admit to feeling that hunting the collared doves that live in my garden and eat (or try to) every single seed and plant that I put in the ground is often in my mind, however. And the Starlings that can completely strip our Fig trees in two days! But my gun-toting days are now over, so they are safe - sfortunatamente!

Don't get me wrong, Giovanni... I am not in favour of hunting, let alone when it can harm protected species. There are laws to protect them; however, the problem seems to be law inforcement.
But what really surprised me in your previous message is your statement that the Vatican had anything to do with hunting.... You do not realise it, but your statement may be considered offensive and unjustified to Roman Catholics.
Regarding the Inquisition.... look at my message in the "Drug Problem" thread under "General Chat about Italy", as it contains a translation of the Inquisition entry in the Spanish Wikipedia. It all depends on who writes history.....
Finally, I do not think it is a good idea to mention religion in a thread that has nothing to do with it. It can only antagonise people. "Pax vobiscum!"

[quote=Nardini;84555]I'm sorry to disagree with you Al, but my experience of Italy, having lived here full-time for 7 years and spending large amounts of time before that here with my wife's relatives, is different.

There is a difference though, the roads of lincolnshire and norfolk are full of wondering pheasents and partridges breed freely so that even the young kids could take as many home as pets if they wanted to.

You are right, Nardini, there are plenty of typical Italian and Mediterranean recipes which use little birds.... I cannot eat them.... Also, lark's livers has been a delicacy since Roman times... Another dish I will never eat....

[quote=Gala Placidia;84562]Don't get me wrong, Giovanni... I am not in favour of hunting, let alone when it can harm protected species. There are laws to protect them; however, the problem seems to be law inforcement.
But what really surprised me in your previous message is your statement that the Vatican had anything to do with hunting.... You do not realise it, but your statement may be considered offensive and unjustified to Roman Catholics.
Regarding the Inquisition.... look at my message in the "Drug Problem" thread under "General Chat about Italy", as it contains a translation of the Inquisition entry in the Spanish Wikipedia. It all depends on who writes history.....
Finally, I do not think it is a good idea to mention religion in a thread that has nothing to do with it. It can only antagonise people. "Pax vobiscum!"[/quote]

No one metioned religion,except you. I mentioned an institution,and within that institution there are some, a small number who would indeed love to go back to the old days and all its traits.

This was merely an example of how i percieve hunting for sport/pleasure.
And was in response to someone mentioning culture[which at one time or another they BOTH were]
And indeed the idea is to show how outdated they both are to the general puplic.

The statement is neither offensive of unjustified ,unless you try to take it out of context,these things did happen they are historical facts end of.

Using your own values, i could say that talking drugs is both offensive,and off putting.As most people do not take them.

Whats the difference? they were/are both evils of their time......

[quote=giovanni;84563]There is a difference though, the roads of lincolnshire and norfolk are full of wondering pheasents and partridges breed freely so that even the young kids could take as many home as pets if they wanted to.[/quote]Picking up a stray pheasant and taking him/her home would be an invitation to a meeting with the local magistrate though - usually a landowner himself, in both Norfolk and Lincolnshire. Always remember that the English hunting scene is very much a class issue, whereas hunting in Italy is still often driven by hunger alone. I'm not saying that the class situation does not exist here, but one must try not to conflate the two reasons for hunting in Italy.

[quote=Nardini;84573]Picking up a stray pheasant and taking him/her home would be an invitation to a meeting with the local magistrate though - usually a landowner himself, in both Norfolk and Lincolnshire. Always remember that the English hunting scene is very much a class issue, whereas hunting in Italy is still often driven by hunger alone. I'm not saying that the class situation does not exist here, but one must try not to conflate the two reasons for hunting in Italy.[/quote]

i wonder if you can tell me the last time anybody was done for such a crime.
I am not talking poaching either.

Your statement is indeed very misleading if only by accident.re landowner /magistrate.

Now on there land thats different, thats poaching.......

[quote=giovanni;84584]Your statement is indeed very misleading if only by accident.re landowner /magistrate.

The law since the 90,s makes it clear the injured party cannot sit on the bench,nor can his friends relatives ect,ect..He cannot sit on a bench if the injured party is know as a friend to him. in otherwords making it a waste of time to even try to make a case against anyone for picking up a partridge or phaesent off the side of the road.[/quote]
Ah, but you are missing my point a little here, Giovanni. The fact that a magistrate is often a landowner in those parts doesn't make him THE landowner - so no law is broken. Of course, if a magistrate is a landowner himself, he will tend to see things from a landowner's perspective, won't he. The perspective that says, clearly, that a bird bred in captivity is, indeed, the property of the landowner that bred him. There is no problem proving that point to the magistrature in them thar parts. Capisce? :smile:

[quote=Nardini;84588]Ah, but you are missing my point a little here, Giovanni. The fact that a magistrate is often a landowner in those parts doesn't make him THE landowner - so no law is broken. Of course, if a magistrate is a landowner himself, he will tend to see things from a landowner's perspective, won't he. The perspective that says, clearly, that a bird bred in captivity is, indeed, the property of the landowner that bred him. There is no problem proving that point to the magistrature in them thar parts. Capisce? :smile:[/quote]

We are going off track no matter,interesting piont anyway.

The fact is a landowner whether the actual owner of the bird or not,by being a land owner he has a vested interest.[yes i know its silly] this is why they are not allowed to sit on the bench.
Would also explain why there has been alot of adverts for magistates from all works of life over the last decade.

But its still becides the point i tried to make, here in the uk we actually produce gaming birds for sport on such a grand scale they roam the roads.
10,000s are killed on the road each year, even more die of starvation.

[url=http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_shooting/ALL/1035//]Animal Aid: THE PHEASANT INDUSTRY - Feathering their nests[/url].

In Italy these hunters shoot anything,as there is not a market for the introduction of mass farming of game birds for sport....

So the hunters in England will be killing game birds [majority wise]
The Hunters in Italy will be killing anything.

[quote=giovanni;84592]...So the hunters in England will be killing game birds [majority wise]
The Hunters in Italy will be killing anything.[/quote]
Surely, Giovanni, killing is killing no matter how you package it? Is it somehow better - more acceptable - to kill something you have bred for killing rather than something that happens to fly overhead? Anyway, I would still contend that there are very few small wild birds killed in Italy today as compared with the numbers killed in the 1930s, for example. There are also wild pig hunted here (think deer hunting in England or Scotland). There are, of course, people that hunt for "sport" in Italy - as there are in the UK, of course. But I still think that you are conflating killing for food with killing for pleasure.

It doesn't make it right, of course - but who is to say it is wrong. I eat meat and have faced the reality of actually killing what I eat, rather than a shrink-wrapped packet of something pink in the supermarket. Does that necessarily make me a bad man?

[quote]Surely, Giovanni, killing is killing no matter how you package it? [/quote]

Is it? I think there is a vast difference between killing to eat, and killing for fun.

[quote]I would still contend that there are very few small wild birds killed in Italy today as compared with the numbers killed in the 1930s, [/quote]

That almost sounds like a complement to the hunters and the care and understanding they now have with nature,but the reasons have nothing to do with these sport hunters what so ever,apart from maybe being poor shots.

For a start there are far less to kill, that could play a part..peoples non acceptance of this also plays apart,As does poaching for food,something my grandfather did in the 30s. Today thankfully the need is far far less.

I started this thread because I was miffed at people not making allowances for my choices and needs.
when I said 30 little guys , I truly meant that , 'cos I stand 1.98mts tall , so there all without doubt shorter then me.
I have heard from dog owning brits that they get told off when there dogs are not on leads, but these 30 had 2 (maybe ) dogs each, running around my land ( yes , I can call it that ) scaring the bejezzus out of my cats , tramping over my garden.
Not withstanding the fact that they were better armed then the cribs and the bloods or any Sarff London gangs .....I really don't wont these guys anywhere my family or house.
I am going to make it a point this year to confirm with my mayor ( he drinks in my local bar) That .......
I will put up on tree/post around my house, NO HUNTING
I will rant and rave at every meeting that is associated with hunting
and should any person ( local or otherwise ) shoulder any grievance with my choice., they are more then welcome to come to my house to discuss it ...........but like Vinny Jones said in Lock Stock etc,,,,,,,,,,,,," you had better be waving a white flag "

You can only take so many near misses........and then say ....thats that !!!!!

Rant over ......................

Well,obviously they were trespassing and there are laws against that, worldwide. Ask the police to enforce them and put signs stating "Private Property - No trespassing - No hunting" everywhere.

[quote=Nardini;84593]Anyway, I would still contend that there are very few small wild birds killed in Italy today as compared with the numbers killed in the 1930s, for example. There are also wild pig hunted here (think deer hunting in England or Scotland). There are, of course, people that hunt for "sport" in Italy - as there are in the UK, of course. But I still think that you are conflating killing for food with killing for pleasure.[/quote]
Nardini, it seems from what you said in this post and your earlier that you believe Italy is a benighted country where the population survives only because of good old-fashioned hunting-gathering. I know things are tough for many Italians, but I have some difficulty believing that the only way all those people living in tower-block flats in the back streets of Rome, Naples and Milan manage to survive is because papa heads off to the countryside every Sunday with shotgun in hand.

Personally, I can understand and accept people hunting if that's the only way they can put protein on the family table. But none of the thuggish, sour-faced (mainly) old men wearing fluorescent waistcoats and holding guns that I've seen standing around in clots by the roadside look like they're starving. In fact, most of them look like they could do with [I]less[/I] saturated fat in their diets.

As for the number of small birds being killed, well, how wonderful it is that Italians are now slaughtering fewer of them than their great-grandfathers were 80 years ago! But I wonder how you'd respond if someone used a similar argument to justify a few incidents of dog-fighting, bear-baiting, child-prostitution, people farming cats for their fur or some other form of behaviour that you find barbarous and unacceptable but which was accepted or ignored a century ago.

For the record, I'm not an anti-hunting fanatic. For example, I have few problems with boar hunting; they can be a damned nuisance, they breed prolifically and there are no non-human predators in most of Italy. In my scheme of morality, it also counts for something that a good hunter can kill a boar cleanly without the animal suffering and that the meat is eaten. (However, I do question just how many [I]good[/I] hunters there are in Italy, given how I've rarely heard just a single shot around my way; generally, what one hears is a fusillade of at least ten rapid shots as the hunter tries to bring the animal down.)

[quote=Gala Placidia;84737]Well,obviously they were trespassing and there are laws against that, worldwide. Ask the police to enforce them and put signs stating "Private Property - No trespassing - No hunting" everywhere.[/quote]
Sorry, but I don't think this is obvious at all. I stand to be corrected, but I've been led to believe that there is no such thing as "trespass" in Italy, or at least not in anything appoaching the English or American legal sense of the term.

While I am free to decide what I do with the land I nominally own in the sense that I can decide what to plant or graze on it, I believe that Italian law grants me very limited ownership rights over things growing on that land which I have not actually cultivated. I do not, for example, "own" the fruits of wild plants, so anyone is free to wander over the farmland and forest which I own and collect any "wild" food they find. So I can't object if someon else gets to the truffles, mushrooms, berries, nuts growing on my land before me, and I can't prevent people hunting furred and feathered critters on my land. Nor do I have any legal grounds for stopping anyone from collecting fallen wood in my bosco.

That doesn't mean, of course, that one can walk into anyone's farmyard and pick vegetables from the orto and a snag a chicken from the run and so get a very cheap Sunday lunch!

It does mean that just putting up a sign saying "No Trespassing, No Hunting" is unlikely to have much impact on those quaint old chaps with shotguns who are determined to exercise their traditional right to blast anything that moves in the Italian countryside.

Allan, perhaps somebody with a better knowledge of Italian law can clarify this; however, I spent some time recently at a locality known as Boveglio (LU), Municipality of Villa Basilicca, and there they have lots of signs stating that you are not allowed to hunt or pick mushrooms, wild berries, collect wood, etc.. throughout the "comune" as they belong to the residents of the area through some sort of cooperative.... I cannot remember the exact words. So there must be some law protecting property or they would not bother putting so many signs. I understand that the land they refer to as "protected" is really public land belonging to the "comune".

Allan is correct. The signs which Gala has seen will probably be in a 'hunting reserve', where some group (could be private, or a cooperative) have paid a level of tax to gain a concession so that only they can hunt there. It isn't public land. It is a riserva. It could be for animals/birds, or it could be for truffles.
Otherwise, there are some 'natural reserves' where hunting is banned, and those are state or regionally controlled. Putting up a no hunting sign on private land without paying the tax is guaranteed to irritate the common hunter who has a right to shoot, (within the regulations concerning distance from habitation etc.)

[quote=Gala Placidia;84752]...a locality known as Boveglio (LU), Municipality of Villa Basilicca, and there they have lots of signs stating that you are not allowed to hunt or pick mushrooms, wild berries, collect wood, etc.. ... So there must be some law protecting property or they would not bother putting so many signs. I understand that the land they refer to as "protected" is really public land belonging to the "comune".[/quote]
I, too, would be interested in clarificiation. I suspect that a comune must have the power in law to restrict the common rights I mentioned in my last post since I understand that only No Hunting signs provided by a comune have any legal standing in Italy.

In other words, while I could put up handmade signs prohibitting hunting all along the boundaries of our land, hunters would be within their rights to ignore them, but a sign issued by the comune after I asked for the land to be made a no hunting zone should have some legal force behind it. As it happens, the previous owner of our place did have it made a no hunting area, signs are in place and the locals seem to respect them. At least that seems to me the most likely explanation for the boar that trotted past me while I was working out in the garden in December and again in January, while the hunters and their dogs remained in the forested slopes below and just watched them run off.

(Edit: Thanks for the clarification you posted while I was writing, Charles.)

8759 hunting season

Some people just don't get it. Do they?

More laws than any other country.

Hooligans in Italy

Hunting Le Marche

Hunting in Italy

Hunting Italy

Animal Welfare

Where are the hard facts?