8696 Berlusconi lives...!

I felt that the old crooner was deserving of a thread to himself now that he has plunged Italy into yet another political crisis...

Firstly, I'm sure you will all be pleased to know that Berlusconi has, yet again, [URL="http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/30/europe/EU-GEN-Italy-Berlusconi-Trial.php"]managed to slip the clutches[/URL] of the law. Praised be to - well, yet another law he got through his [I]company[/I] parliament last time he was in control.

Another thing I have been wondering about is what happened to his [URL="http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_novembre_18/berlusconi_partito_popolo_italiano.shtml"]magical new party[/URL] (also in [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7101027.stm"]BBC English here[/URL]), launched in Piazza San Babila, Milano last November. Any news?

Of course, we already know about his taped conversations demanding that RAI give work to several of his young lady supporters - looking to lead directly to the courtroom. If - or is it now when - he gets the reins of power back again, can we guess the law that will be immediately passed to ensure both his innocence and immunity from prosecution? Again...

Anyway... Berlusconi. What's your view?

Category
Italian Politics

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 09:15

My view? I'll pass the buck to Woody Allen, who said it better (in 'bananas') than I ever could ...

"I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham."

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 09:27

Oh my goodness you two are frightfully unreconstructed. Why on earth would anyone want to take on the heavy burden of running a country if it were not for the ability to pass on these gestures of largesse to one's mates. Hardly seems worth the bother otherwise.

I mean, get with the programme.:winki:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:52

I think there is an errant 'v' in the title of this thread!

If it is removed it reads much truer.:laughs::laughs:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 12:06

I'd have to agree with this sage comment, and in response to "Berlusconi Lives" would add... "sad, but true".

In my nearly 3 years in Italy, one of the things that has kept me constantly entertained is exploring the cultural differences between me and the locals. Most of the time it's a great fun pursuit, seeing where we look at things differently, and in most cases, I'm happy to say that I'm coming round to the local way of thinking, despite 40+ years of conditioning. The area where I really struggle to have any empathy though is in the general acceptance of people like Berlusconi - mbuh!!

[quote=Nielo;81579]I think there is an errant 'v' in the title of this thread!

If it is removed it reads much truer.:laughs::laughs:[/quote]

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 13:31

I think I may have said this before, about the difference between Berlusconi and the likes of Blair, Brown and Bush.
We all know that Berlusconi is not the straightest of men, but at least he is honest enough to come at you in broad daylight,wearing a stripped black and white jumper and mask, with a knife.
Unlike the other three who dick around saying they are doing the right thing by us all, and then do u-turns faster then a rabbi at a BBQ.
I prefer honestly dishonest people, at least you know that is all BS with them.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 06:16

[quote=deborahandricky;81593]...We all know that Berlusconi is not the straightest of men, but at least he is honest enough to come at you in broad daylight,wearing a stripped black and white jumper and mask, with a knife...[/quote]
Sadly, I cannot agree with you on this. Berlusconi has a long, long history of acting in a way that would make Machiavelli look like a cheer-leader for a Wyoming prep school! Perhaps you should [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite#Escalating_conflict_between_Berlusconi_and_Di_Pietro"]delve a little[/URL] into the matter of how Antonio di Pietro was discredited by Berlusconi - or just get hold of "Sack of Rome", of course. Belusconi wields immense power with his control of the media in Italy and uses it to the full. He is a brilliant salesman and, like many salesmen, not a very good manager. Italy has already paid a very high price to both keep Berlusconi out of jail and to enhance his ego at all levels. But to suggest that Berlusconi is not a wholly devious "person", as well as an out-and-out criminal, would be simply further highlighting his success as a frighteningly effective brain-washing force in Italy.

I realise that for many people Berlusconi merely represents a right-of-centre political view and it is easy to confuse him with the British Conservative party, or the US Republican party. This would be a mistake, however as I feel that Berlusconi has never presented any kind of idealogical reason for his actions. I would be much happier to see Casini or Fini heading the Centre-Right coalition - at least they have an idealogical agenda to press.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 09:22

Imagine working for an organisation that has just over 600 employees, of which:
29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
19 have been accused of writing bad cheques
117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
4 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year!

Which organisation is this? Its neither owned nor run by Berlusconi......

It's the House of Commons, whose 635 members are the same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line, and they want a pay rise!

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 09:49

[quote=numerouno;81634]It's the House of Commons, whose 635 members are the same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line, and they want a pay rise![/quote]

In Italy it is called the [URL="http://legxv.camera.it/include/dovesiedono/emicicloinpage.asp"]Camera dei Deputati[/URL]. Here, we have our [URL="http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/condannati_parlamento.php"]own bunch of convicts[/URL] in office, we don't need any English ones, thank you very much!
:winki:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 10:54

[quote=Nardini;81638]In Italy it is called the [URL="http://legxv.camera.it/include/dovesiedono/emicicloinpage.asp"]Camera dei Deputati[/URL]. Here, we have our [URL="http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/condannati_parlamento.php"]own bunch of convicts[/URL] in office, we don't need any English ones, thank you very much!
:winki:[/quote]

Do you mean these guys ????

Below is the list of names of Italian representatives in the Italian and European Parliaments that have been convicted of a crime:
Berruti Massimo Maria (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR="Red"]Driving with due care and attention[/COLOR]
Biondi Alfredo (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR="red"]Wearing Gucci knockoffs[/COLOR]

Bonsignore Vito (Udc - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR="red"]Not using his mobile
whilst driving[/COLOR]
Borghezio Mario (Lega Nord - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR="red"]Making a pass at an older woman[/COLOR]
Bossi Umberto (Lega Nord - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR="red"]Not having suger in his coffee[/COLOR]
Cantoni Giampiero (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR="red"]Seen entering a starbucks[/COLOR]
Carra Enzo (Member of Parliament Ulivo) [COLOR="red"]Seen in public with a woman that was his wife [/COLOR]
Cirino Pomicino Paolo (Member of Parliament Democrazia Cristiana - Partito Socialista) [COLOR="red"]Seen in restaurant not watching the television[/COLOR]

De Angelis Marcello (Member of Parliament Alleanza Nazionale) [COLOR="red"]Not being seen in Hello for 2 issues [/COLOR]
D'Elia Sergio (Member of Parliament Rosa nel Pugno) [COLOR="red"]Not wearing brown shoes with a blue suit[/COLOR]
Dell'Utri Marcello (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR="red"]For not employing his family as advisers [/COLOR]
Del Pennino Antonio (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR="red"]Paying the correct amount of IVA[/COLOR]
De Michelis Gianni (Nuovo Psi - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR="red"]For asking for butter with his bread [/COLOR]
And lets not forget the ex Boss himself ….[COLOR="red"]Being in possession of a dodgy hair transplant[/COLOR]

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 04:35

[quote=deborahandricky;81639]Do you mean these guys ????[/quote]If it wasn't for the fact that several of these people have been found guilty of serious criminal offences, that would have been quite amusing.

[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Below is the list of names of Italian representatives in the Italian and European Parliaments that have been convicted of a crime:

Berruti Massimo Maria (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR=Red]Driving with due care and attention[/COLOR][/quote]
[B]8 months for favouring in a trial for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribe"]bribes[/URL] to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_di_Finanza"]Guardia di Finanza[/URL][/B]

[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Biondi Alfredo (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR=red]Wearing Gucci knockoffs[/COLOR][/quote]
[B][U]Actually a Senator for Liguria[/U] - 2 months (negotiated) [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_fraud"]tax fraud[/URL] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa"]Genova[/URL].
[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Bonsignore Vito (Udc - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR=red]Not using his mobile whilst driving[/COLOR][/quote]
[B]2 years for attempted corruption in the construction of a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital"]hospital[/URL] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asti"]Asti[/URL].[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Borghezio Mario (Lega Nord - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR=red]Making a pass at an older woman[/COLOR][/quote]
[B]
(1) Fined 750.000 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_lira"]lire[/URL] for beating a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco"]Moroccan[/URL] child in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993"]1993[/URL].

(2) Fined 3.040 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro"]Euros[/URL] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005"]2005[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arson"]arson[/URL] of the belongings of some [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant"]immigrants[/URL] sleeping under a bridge.[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Bossi Umberto (Lega Nord - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR=red]Not having suger in his coffee[/COLOR][/quote]
[B]8 months for the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enimont_bribe&action=edit"]Enimont bribe[/URL].[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Cantoni Giampiero (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR=red]Seen entering a starbucks[/COLOR][/quote]
[B]As former president of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banca_Nazionale_del_Lavoro"]Banca Nazionale del Lavoro[/URL], associated to the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Socialist_Party"]Italian Socialist Party[/URL], he was investigated and arrested for corruption, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy#Bankruptcy_fraud"]bankruptcy fraud[/URL] and other crimes. He negotiated sentences for about two years, and refunded 800 millions [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_lira"]lire[/URL].[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Carra Enzo (Member of Parliament Ulivo) [COLOR=red]Seen in public with a woman that was his wife [/COLOR][/quote]
[B]1 year and 4 months in prison for false statements to prosecutors about the Enimont bribe.[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Cirino Pomicino Paolo (Member of Parliament Democrazia Cristiana - Partito Socialista) [COLOR=red]Seen in restaurant not watching the television[/COLOR][/quote]

[B]1 year and 8 months for illegal financing, in the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enimont_bribe&action=edit"]Enimont bribe[/URL]

2 months negotiated for corruption and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eni"]Eni[/URL] black funds.[/B]

[quote=deborahandricky;81639] De Angelis Marcello (Member of Parliament Alleanza Nazionale) [COLOR=red]Not being seen in Hello for 2 issues [/COLOR][/quote]

[B][U]Actually a Senator for Abruzzo since 28 April 2006[/U] - and not on the list.[/B]

[quote=deborahandricky;81639] D'Elia Sergio (Member of Parliament Rosa nel Pugno) [COLOR=red]Not wearing brown shoes with a blue suit[/COLOR][/quote]
[B]
Not on the list[/B]

[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Dell'Utri Marcello (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR=red]For not employing his family as advisers [/COLOR][/quote]
[B]
2 years for tax fraud and false invoices in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin"]Turin[/URL], regarding his time in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Publitalia&action=edit"]Publitalia[/URL].

6 months negotiated in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan"]Milan[/URL] for other issues about false invoices accounting in Publitalia.[/B]

[quote=deborahandricky;81639] Del Pennino Antonio (Member of Parliament Forza Italia) [COLOR=red]Paying the correct amount of IVA[/COLOR][/quote]
[U][B]
Actually a Senator for Milano since 12 July 2006.[/B][/U]
[B]2 months and 20 days negotiated for illegal financing (Enimont bribe)

1 year, 8 months and 20 days negotiated for illegal financing in the Milan [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime"]underground[/URL].[/B]
[quote=deborahandricky;81639] De Michelis Gianni (Nuovo Psi - Member of European Parliament) [COLOR=red]For asking for butter with his bread [/COLOR][/quote]

[B][U]Resigned his seat in Tuscany back in 28 April 2006 after just 7 days in the Camera dei Deputati.

[/U][/B][B]1 year and 6 months negotiated in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan"]Milan[/URL] for corruption and bribes for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways"]highways[/URL] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto"]Veneto[/URL]

6 months negotiated for illegal financing (Enimont bribe).
[/B][quote=deborahandricky;81639] And lets not forget the ex Boss himself ….[COLOR=red]Being in possession of a dodgy hair transplant[/COLOR][/quote]
Notwithstanding Berlusconi himself, deserving of a book all to himself (try Sack of Rome!) you (or rather the site you copied and pasted from) missed a few...

Walter De Rigo (senator for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL])[LIST]
[*]1 year and 4 months negotiated for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud"]fraud[/URL] on the ministry of Work and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community"]European Economic Community[/URL] for 474 millions lire, in exchange for fake professional qualification courses for his firm.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gianstefano_Frigerio&action=edit"]Gianstefano Frigerio[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL])[LIST]
[*]3 years and 9 months for corruption in Milan, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dumping_ground&action=edit"]dumping ground[/URL] bribes;
[*]2 years and 11 months for other two issues in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangentopoli"]Tangentopoli[/URL], among which corruption (both [I]corruzione[/I] and [I]concussione[/I] variants of the Italian legal system), [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receiving_stolen_goods"]receiving stolen goods[/URL] and illegal financing.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giorgio_Galvagno&action=edit"]Giorgio Galvagno[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL]), former [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Socialist_Party"]socialist[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor"]mayor[/URL] of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asti"]Asti[/URL][LIST]
[*]6 months and 26 days negotiated in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996"]1996[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution"]pollution[/URL] of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquifer"]acquifer[/URL], abuse and omission of due acts in office, false statement, nonintentional crimes against public health (pollution of aquifer) and omitted reporting for the responsibles of the Asti corruption situation in the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vallemanina&action=edit"]Vallemanina[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Valleandona&action=edit"]Valleandona[/URL] dumping ground scandal (unlawful [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_disposal"]waste disposal[/URL] of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_waste"]toxic waste[/URL], in exchange for bribes).[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lino_Jannuzzi&action=edit"]Lino Jannuzzi[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Senate"]senator[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL])[LIST]
[*]2 years and 4 months for various [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander"]slander[/URL], was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon"]graced[/URL] by the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_Italian_Republic"]President of the Republic[/URL] just before being jailed. [URL="http://www.justresponse.net/Dick-Erikson3.html"][1][/URL][/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_La_Malfa"]Giorgio La Malfa[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Republican_Party"]Italian Republican Party[/URL], minister for Community Policies)[LIST]
[*]6 months and 20 days for illegal financing (Enimont bribe).[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Maroni"]Roberto Maroni[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord"]Lega Nord[/URL] and minister of Work)[LIST]
[*]4 months and 20 days for resistance against public official during the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police"]police[/URL] raid in the party's building in via Bellerio in Milan.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Augusto_Rollandin&action=edit"]Augusto Rollandin[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Senate"]senator[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdotanian_Union"]Valdotanian Union[/URL]-[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_of_the_Left"]Democrats of the Left[/URL]), former president of the regional council of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aosta_Valley"]Aosta Valley[/URL][LIST]
[*]16 months and fined 2 millions lire in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994"]1994[/URL], plus damages to be paid to the Region for abuse in office: he favoured a friend's firm in the assignment of a construction contract for a waste packer in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brissogne"]Brissogne[/URL]. After being removed from his position by the court of Turin, because he was "[I]ineligible[/I]", in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001"]2001[/URL] he became a candidate for the Valdotanian Union and the DS.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_Sgarbi"]Vittorio Sgarbi[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL])[LIST]
[*]6 months for grand and continued fraud against the state, i.e. the minister of Culture.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Calogero_Sodano&action=edit"]Calogero Sodano[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Senate"]senator[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats%27_Centre_Union"]UDC[/URL]), formerly mayor of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrigento"]Agrigento[/URL][LIST]
[*]1 year and 6 months for abuse in office aiming to favour illegal construction firms in exchange for voting favours.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Egidio_Sterpa&action=edit"]Egidio Sterpa[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL])[LIST]
[*]6 months for the Enimont bribe.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antonio_Tomassini&action=edit"]Antonio Tomassini[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Senate"]senator[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL]), [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgery"]surgeon[/URL][LIST]
[*]3 years for false statements: during a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth"]birth[/URL], a baby was born with [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain"]brain[/URL] damage. Forza Italia designated him responsible for health in the party and president of the Work Health commission in the Senate.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vincenzo_Visco&action=edit"]Vincenzo Visco[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_of_the_Left"]Democrats of the Left[/URL])[LIST]
[*]10 days and 20 million lire in fine for construction abuse in 2001, because of some illegal works in his house in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelleria"]Pantelleria[/URL]. He was also ordered to "restore the locations", i.e. demolishing the abusive constructions.[/LIST][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfredo_Vito&action=edit"]Alfredo Vito[/URL] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Chamber_of_Deputies"]MP[/URL] for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia"]Forza Italia[/URL])[LIST]
[*]2 years negotiated and 5 billion lire repaid for 22 counts of corruption in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples"]Naples[/URL].[/LIST]The best place for jokes is in the Friday Joke thread - especially in the political situation Italy finds itself in at the moment, wouldn't you say?

Ciao.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 04:50

Which way to the naughty corner ...............

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 05:02

[quote=deborahandricky;81671]Which way to the naughty corner ...............[/quote][URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/circolo-di-conversazione/5373-friday-joke-39.html#post81315"]Here... :laughs:[/URL]

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 05:59

I grazied D&R's post because it was hilarious. I take Nardini's point that he's raised a very serious subject, in a political part of the forum, & it's not one which should be trivialised.

However, I don't think D&R's input neccessarily did so (trivialised matters, that is). It is in fact wickedly satirical of the egomania/pomp of Italian politicians, which itself is IMO a telling symptom of their corrupt tendencies: think Jonathan Aitken speechifying on TV about wielding the sword of truth (or whatever tosh he cobbled together) ... ego often provides a convenient smokescreen for an underlying malaise. Satire has long been a tool of political commentary, and often the most effective tool for making joe public actually sit up & take some notice. in some societies, its also the only way to get a dissident viewpoint out "under the radar" of the authorities.

So, just wanted to say that I don't find D&R's joke to be out of place in the thread ... and, had it not been there, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to read Nardini's excellent rebuttal, which really opened my eyes and brought the thread to life ... "beating a moroccan child" ... FFS.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 11:00

[quote=numerouno;81634]Imagine working for an organisation that has just over 600 employees, of which:

[[I]A cut 'n' paste list of BS that doesn't deserve repeating.[/I]]

Which organisation is this? Its neither owned nor run by Berlusconi......

It's the House of Commons, whose 635 members are the same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line, and they want a pay rise![/quote]
Nonsense like this annoys me.

The most trivial error in the post is that there are currently [URL="http://www.parliament.uk/faq/members_faq_page2.cfm#mem1"]646 MPs[/URL] in the House of Commons, not 635.

More seriously, the list of crimes is total rubbish. Everyone who helps spread ill-founded assertions like this contributes to the corrosive atmosphere of cynicism about politics and politicians created by the media these days. It's all too easy to say, "Huh! All politicians are crooks!" shrug and absolve oneself from even the minimal responsibility we have in democratic countries of making a choice at election time, nevermind actually getting involved in politics and trying to make things better.

It is, as Nardini's carefully researched post indicates, not at all difficult to find politicians in Italy who have close personal experience of the law at both ends of the process. It's also certainly the case that Members of Parliament in the UK are human beings, not saints. However, a few minutes Googling for information on the list of crimes cited by numerouno will lead you to [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A593129"]this BBC page[/URL] or to that fount of truth in a forest of urban myths and lies, [URL="http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/congress.asp"]Snopes[/URL], where you will find that the statistics have nothing whatsoever to do with the House of Commons. The list of nefarious activities was originally supposed to prove how crooked members of the [I]US Congress[/I] are. However, even though it's possible there is some basis of truth in the numbers and crimes listed, it is impossible to verify this since the original source was careful not to name names. What's more, it's an interesting question how the original source could have gathered their information. How, for example, could they know that American Express (to cite the credit card company mentioned in the original piece) had refused anyone a card? And of course, given what the USA is like, it would be surprising if any group of a few hundred people didn't include quite a few who had been sued for something or other at some time.

In short, the list was purest BS when used against member of the US Congress and totally irrelevant in considering whether British MPs are fit to hold their jobs.

Be cynical about politics and politicians if that allows you to feel superior to them, but it's a wise person who knows it's far too easy to believe that Tony Blair, Nelson Mandela, Berlusconi and Robert Mugabe are all the same and all motivated by the same thing.

Al

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 11:13

[QUOTE=pigro;81676]QUOTE]

I still think your sexists

Isle of man indeed

Just off now to find some comfy shoes amd a pipe
Love Deborah and Mary

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 11:26

What’s the difference between the UK, Italian, US, German governments and the London , Milan, NY , Berlin , symphony string section ……………

There all on the fiddle…………………………………….

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 11:51

[quote=deborahandricky;81692]
I still think your sexists

Isle of man indeed

Just off now to find some comfy shoes amd a pipe
Love Deborah and Mary[/quote]

To be accused of being a sexist is bad enough ... to be accused of being a whole gang of them is worse & not at all good for my schizo tendencies!

Just changed my sig ... so you can smoke your pipe in peace. Just don't fug up the naughty corner too much with smoke. Sorry Nardini, its all D&R's fault, I'm not trying to derail your thread again :-)

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 04:33

... is no longer Silvio Berlusconi, probable future prime minister of Italy!

He has dropped back to third place in the new [URL="http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/05/richest-people-billionaires-billionaires08-cx_lk_0305billie_land.html"]Forbes list[/URL] of Italian "richest people" - a mere number 90 in the world at large.

Third place? Good grief! How has he managed to fall behind both [URL="http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/10/billionaires08_Michele-Ferrero-family_S9QN.html"]Michele Ferrero & family[/URL] and also [URL="http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/10/billionaires08_Leonardo-Del-Vecchio_P765.html"]Leonardo Del Vecchio[/URL] ? Not by stint of good management it would seem.

I'm quite happy to keep buying Ferrero Rocher choccies and wearing my Ray Bans now!

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 04:49

Theres a fair few young russians on that list, well they have to be young,the walls only been down 17odd years...

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 04:49

Knowing Mr. B he will use that to his advantage - saying to the "italian people" - "you see I am so busy trying to save you that I had to sacrifice some of my personal wealth. Obviously if I focused just on my business this would have not happened" :smile:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:09

[quote=ronald;84547]Knowing Mr. B he will use that to his advantage - saying to the "italian people" - "you see I am so busy trying to save you that I had to sacrifice some of my personal wealth. Obviously if I focused just on my business this would have not happened" :smile:[/quote]

I am not sure that would go down too well. Afterall 60,000,000 people in Italy are poorer by a few billion.......

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:38

...and yet roughly half vote for him every time :smile:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:41

[quote=giovanni;84550]I am not sure that would go down too well. Afterall 60,000,000 people in Italy are poorer by a few billion.......[/quote]
Sadly, I fear that Ronald is right - after all, Berlusconi owns and controls the main body of media here in Italy, so he is highly adept at advertising himself in a way that seems to appeal to the majority. Memory being what it is here, many people have already forgotten the mess he created the last time he was in power - not that he ever lost power, really. Control of the media is the key to infusing your product into the mind of the hapless consumer - it is called advertising! The product? Tar-top!
:winki:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:43

[quote=ronald;84557]...and yet roughly half vote for him every time :smile:[/quote] Actually it is only around 30% of the voting public. You shouldn't believe everything that "Fido" says, you know!

:bigergrin:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:44

[quote=ronald;84557]...and yet roughly half vote for him every time :smile:[/quote]

So did half of America for Bush...... you know what they say......:laughs:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:47

Nardini - I was impressed about how he eloquently explained precisely this on Vespa last night. He said that it is not fair that the smaller parties get the same air time as the larger ones because that means that they will disproportionately increase their percentage of votes because "obviously" the more one is on TV the more one has the chance to increase their votes.

The fantastic journalists accepted this and moved on and nobody said... "so in that case it would be reasonable to assume that the owner of 3 tv stations, magazines and newspapers would be disproportionately advantaged"

Ok - I have to stop now. I promised myself that I would not get worked up about politics this election. It is all such a mess and the pickings are truly slim

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 05:58

[quote=ronald;84564]Nardini - I was impressed about how he eloquently explained precisely this on Vespa last night. He said that it is not fair that the smaller parties get the same air time as the larger ones because that means that they will disproportionately increase their percentage of votes because "obviously" the more one is on TV the more one has the chance to increase their votes.

The fantastic journalists accepted this and moved on and nobody said... "so in that case it would be reasonable to assume that the owner of 3 tv stations, magazines and newspapers would be disproportionately advantaged"

Ok - I have to stop now. I promised myself that I would not get worked up about politics this election. It is all such a mess and the pickings are truly slim[/quote]
Of course, it has to be remembered (please everyone!) that the journalists are employed by the companies that Berlusconi controls, meaning that their jobs are at risk if they are "difficult" to him. One only has to remember Michele Santoro and Enzo Biaggi to see how it works in Berlusconi-land.

Hey ho.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 06:04

I think it shows how his mind works,Thats what worries me.Basic fairness to one and all cannot exists in his thourghts

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 12:37

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 14:47

[quote=Torchiarolan;84665]We were in a restaurant in Italy, when we heard on the ubiquitous TV in the corner that the Prodi government fell, most Italians there jumped up delighted and cheered, like a goal in the world cup, thought a table of 7 nearby was going to start a fight they looked and spoke so angrily, anyway it calmed down, and we were advised that the other table were "Prodi supporters"[/quote]That's actually one of the things I find attractive about Italian politics. (If anything about politics could be attractive.) Political questions on social and economic issues actually [I]matter[/I] to people.

In the UK, you have the choice between centre-right New 'Labour', centre-right Conservatives and centre-right Liberal Democrats. And don't get me started on my home patch in Northern Ireland where tribe is more important than anything else.

(If I was an Italian citizen right now, I'd be rainbow-inclined.)

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 03/07/2008 - 14:31

....do things matter because people are interested per se, or becuase there are a vast number of factions to identify with?

Speaking from my usual position of total ognorance, I notice that in the UK there are only really 2 (maybe 3) camps......so one has to use a fair bit of rounding error if one wants to affiliate with any of them.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 03/11/2008 - 09:26

Poor old Berlusconi has [URL="http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/11/europe/EU-POL-Italy-Fascist-Candidate.php"]cause for pink cheeks[/URL] again - supposing you can see the pink against his eternal orange, that is.

It seems that one of his "selected" worker bees, designated for work in the Berlusconi fold after the April elections, has announced his life-long love of fascism - and Benito Mussolini.

Giuseppe Ciarrapico, a businessman from Rome and past president of AS Roma, is in the running for a new seat in the Senate. Perhaps he missed the bit when [URL="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jan/24/worlddispatch.philipwillan"]Fini corrected his own attraction[/URL] to Mussolini back in 2002?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 04/14/2008 - 14:06

Well, it looks as though Berlusconi has done it. Again.

Shares in Mediaset are already rising with the news - although the news for Berlusconi is not quite as rosy as he thought it might be. Bossi has done very well, ensuring that he retains a firm grip on Berlusconi's little bits. So much, then, for a constitutional change that has any kind of real significance as Bossi will not - can not, in fact - allow it. So, it's back to square one again.

Bring on the Messina Bridge project! Long may it make fortunes for the builders and low-paid work for the people of Calabria and Sicily. It may even be finished before the next major earthquake! Forse...

PS. Has anyone heard yet which month we won't be paying tax in? And ... yippee! ... no bollo next year!

Hah.