8934 Wood fired ovens?

For the last two years we have had a termocucina (heats radiators as well) - it is incredibly effective and soon warms the room - we do not use it during the summer as it would make the kitchen unbearably hot.

After much investigation we bought a VESCOVI Jessica (we wanted one that looked good, rather than an ugly lump of metal, with a reasonable size oven and glass in the door of the firebox). As to how much wood it uses I cannot give a precise amount but it does not seem to use very much, less than the open fire used to - obviously it does vary from day to day depending on whether we are using the oven as well as the hob and the ambient temperature. If you are not bothered about linking one up to the CH system, then as you are probably aware, there is a huge selection out there, some available very cheaply from DIY shops and some far more sturdy versions from more specialist shops. Apart from Vescovi the other make we considered was Nordica - we already had a log burning stove by them which is excellent. Both Vescovi and Nordica are extremely well made and I would recomend either. Offhand I can't remember the kW but it certainly soon warms up our 45mq room

One thing to consider is where you need the chimney tubes - on many they are only available on the right (no choice). We needed one to be on the left and again this did limit our choice, some do offer central. The other consideration is if you want a cover - we could not find any makes that offered insulated covers, Vescovi do provide a cover but it is not insulated.

When it is lit, we only use the hob & oven for cooking - the gas hob/oven is redundant. When the fire is ticking over the oven is usually around the 100 degrees mark,it can be brought up to 200-300 degrees easily enough. One hting we have found with the hob (cast iron) is that our cast iron pans take an age to warm up so we did end up buying a couple of aluminum pans as these take much less time.

Hope this helps.

You can see some of the ovens here, with prices.
[url=http://www.mercatoneuno.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10001&categoryId=13186&langId=-4&parent_category_rn=13166&top_category=13166&beginIndex=18&sub_cat_rb=13183]Categoria - Stufe - Riscaldamento - Elettrodomestici[/url]

And at this site, you can see how much wood the Nordica oven uses per hour.
[url=http://www.lanordica-extraflame.com/php/prodotti_nordica.php?cat_ID=2&lng=0]La Nordica - Extraflame[/url]

I wouldn't mind a full stove but I don't think I have enough room in the kitchen. Not sure it would look right in the tv room.

At times I'm leaning towards something like this:

[url]http://www.clementi-ovens.com/pdf/elite.pdf[/url]

I think it would fit but I wonder if the oven is too small. One of the main reasons for wanting something like this is the tiny built in electric oven I have. Bad enough it's small but it trips the power why too easily. OTOH this stove could be put into the TV room.

At times I'm leaning towards one of these:

[url=http://www.fontanaforni.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=65&lang=en]FITTED MODEL[/url]

But it might not heat the kitchen up much in the winter. OTOH it could be stuck next to the fireplace I think and a small basic heating stove could go into the TV room.

[quote=NickZ;84095]
But it might not heat the kitchen up much in the winter. OTOH it could be stuck next to the fireplace I think and a small basic heating stove could go into the TV room.[/quote]

Ours is in place of the original fireplace which although was lovely to look at, was absolutely useless unless you wanted to end up feeling like a smoked kipper and a frozen one at that as it produced no heat! If putting one next to an existing fireplace you would need to think about the chimney tubes as theoretically you are not meant to have two fires leading into the same chimney unless they each have their own flue system. Can't remember all the technical reasons but all the brochures had big red crosses through this option.

I know what you mean. To get warm with my fireplace you need to climb in with the fire :laughs: A chimney damper would really help but might be harder to find then the right stove.

Next to the fireplace is really the only free space. I want to leave the fireplace open to roast the odd chestnut or grill a steak if I feel like it. The spot is also next to an outside wall so the installer could run an external chimney up there without too much hassle. Just the cost of all that pipe. What worries me is it's not too far from the radiator. I know he'll tell me it's a bad idea.

They are absolutely fantastic and do the job very well. Combined with a huge fuel saving I would not hesitate in purchasing one!

That said the quality of any machine is only as good as the fuel you use, so you need to source or may have access to this? We are in Liguria and we burn Cerro (Turkey Oak) or Carpina (Hornbeam) both of these burn for a long time and a very hot time, with the minimal amount of ash.

If you source a reliable supplier (word of mouth is the best) you will be fine. Remember wood sourced from near a moisture source i.e. valley bottom or near a river with have a heavier moisture content (even when seasoned) than wood sourced from altitude.

No I am not clever, my wood man told me that. I did not believe him but my God he was right.

Hope this helps

Robert

The guy next door gets me truck loads of wood for a fair price. He normally brings me a mix of dry and not so dry. Dry starts well but burns quicker. The less dry takes forever to start but once started just keeps going and going. I guess it burns cooler and I worry about what that means for the chimney.

:no:If the wood is not dry (less than 20% moisture) you can expect tar and soot to build up in the chimney. And this tar and soot can ignite and burn. If that happens, the chimney may be destroyed beyond repair. It takes only a temperature of a little more than 100 c to ignite, and when burning the temp. rise to 1300-1400 degrees!
Same thing can happen if the air supply to the fire is restricted. :no:

Having had a chimney fire I'd do anything to avoid another!!!

We bought a new top of the range wood burner and have been advised only to use dry well seasoned wood.Some people think by burning wood slowly they are saving money but unless you get a good hot burn going you will only create more tar and chimney fires!!

I like the look of the woodburning stoves and they seem so cheap.Are they actually capable of producing heat for the radiators?

[quote=manopello;84377]Having had a chimney fire I'd do anything to avoid another!!!

We bought a new top of the range wood burner and have been advised only to use dry well seasoned wood.Some people think by burning wood slowly they are saving money but unless you get a good hot burn going you will only create more tar and chimney fires!!

I like the look of the woodburning stoves and they seem so cheap.Are they actually capable of producing heat for the radiators?[/quote]
Having been in a house in the UK a couple of years ago visiting a friend and a chimney fire started, then I would not like to go through the experience again of the wood burner chimney glowing bright red and the roaring noise of the tar burning.
We lived in a Thatched Cottage, with an open fireplace and were always very wary of the fire risks linked to wood burning, unless it was very well seasoned.

has anyone heard of the company 'WAMSLER'?Are they around in italy ?[url=http://www.wamslercookers.co.uk/html/ch_900.html]Wamsler 900 Series Central Heating Cooker[/url]

They make wood burning aga type stoves that can heat a house /hot water.In the UK they are about £2,600 much less than an aga but they look good and would fit the bill for a lot us house restorers looking for something functional but also good looking.

This thread started with ovens and seems to be heading in the direction of stoves. However I have a camino open fire with a nice hood over it and an appetite for wood you would not believe plus I can see about 90% of the lovely heat going up the chimney. The hearth is about 1m wide by 65cm high and 60cm deep. Can I put a wood burning stove in this space and will it be more efficient than present arrangement? Radiators, chip pans etc not needed.

65cm sounds tight for a stove elliven, perhaps you could consider an 'inset' designed for your sort of situation. Most of the stufe makers available in italy have a section in their websites devoted to these. Is there a cosmetic element with your camino that could be removed to increase height? if you could strip out, or open up, your chimney is sure to be more than big enough for a stove. Manopello, don't know about Wamsler in Italy, but if this type of cooker appeals, then take a look at the much wider Italian range from De Manincor ... very artisan, with looks to die for - be warned - at [url=http://www.demanincor.it]de Manincor[/url]

Usually the installer can punch a hole into the chimney above the current fireplace and stick a pipe in there. Downside outside of looks is you lose the use of the current fireplace. If that doesn't bother you and you've got space next to the fireplace or even in front of it then you could install a stove that way. A stove is a lot better on fuel then a fireplace.

I swear I posted a reply about wood moisture. The "wet" stuff I get is a little wetter then framing lumber. So I'd guess 10-12% or so. I've no idea which box my wood moisture meter is in or I'd check. The wood sure isn't dry enough for furniture. I don't think the idea is to save money by using wet wood. Here we pay by weight for firewood. So wet wood is more expensive. The advantage of less dry wood is it lets you avoid tending the fire all night long.

[quote=manopello;85046]has anyone heard of the company 'WAMSLER'?Are they around in italy ?[url=http://www.wamslercookers.co.uk/html/ch_900.html]Wamsler 900 Series Central Heating Cooker[/url]

They make wood burning aga type stoves that can heat a house /hot water.In the UK they are about £2,600 much less than an aga but they look good and would fit the bill for a lot us house restorers looking for something functional but also good looking.[/quote]

Did not come across WAMSLER when we were doing our research a few years ago so not sure whether they are out here or not.

We have a VescoviJ5fc wood burning aga type stove that can heat radiators and hot water - it has a kW of 29, one of the highest we found. Most were alot lower. The other company that offered high kW was Nordica. I think someone has already given a link to Nordica earlier in this thread, the Vescovi site is [url=http://www.vescovilamberto.com]Vescovi Lamberto - Progettazione e realizzazione Cucine - Termocucine - Stufe - Cappe - Forni - Rovereto - Trento - Italy[/url]

[quote=manopello;85046]has anyone heard of the company 'WAMSLER'?Are they around in italy ?[URL="http://www.wamslercookers.co.uk/html/ch_900.html"]Wamsler 900 Series Central Heating Cooker[/URL]

They make wood burning aga type stoves that can heat a house /hot water.In the UK they are about £2,600 much less than an aga but they look good and would fit the bill for a lot us house restorers looking for something functional but also good looking.[/quote]

Yes, I think they are manufactured in Germany but are still currrently being sold in UK. I have installed/used a couple along with other other makes such as Franco Belge and Bosky. Bosky was marketed in the UK by UA Engineering but I think they have ceased, They were made in Italy by Themrorossi, big in heating and probably still going strong.

They all use similar system and they do take a bit of getting used to. Although a lot of controlls can be fitted to the systems it is ultimatley the ammount of fuel (they are designed to burn any solid fuel, not just wood) that is fed into them that governs their output, not just setting a time clock or adjusting a time clock.

That said, they can be tremendously satisfying additions to the home..... in the same way that if you can appreciate the sattisfaction of growing your own food, the work involved adds to the experience. It often works 'the other way round' Having got the house nice and warm, you look at the hot oven and feel, 'I must use it' and off you go creating something to cook.

The thing I do find surprising over here is the lack of insulated flues, in the Uk I would not advocate anything (internally) other that a pummiced based liner. I to have experienced the "glowing" metalwork of chimney fires....... frightening! Here they have a lot more knowledge and experience of woodburning and understand the importance of dry wood so it isn't so much of a problem. The comment "damp wood lasts longer" concerns me, you don't appreciate the damage it does as well as the loss of heat having to burn off all that moisture.

Wood ovens are not for everyone but for those that appreciate and understand them they can be very cost effective (must have a cheap of free source of wood) and addictive.

Wood ovens are not for everyone but for those that appreciate and understand them they can be very cost effective (must have a cheap of free source of wood) and addictive.[/quote]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]A open fireplace has a 15-20 % efficiency but an new sophisticated wood burner has an efficiency of appr. 80% of the burned wood. Burning pellets can improve the effect up to 90%.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]One kilo of wood with 20% rest moisture can give 4,26 KWH. At 80% that means 3,4 KWH. At 90% 3.8 KWH.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I do not know what every one of you can expect to pay for wood, but in Puglia I have seen prices as low as € 9 per kvintale, i.e 340 KWH. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Electricity at a cost of 0,20 pr KWH means that 340 KWH will set you back € 68,-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Even if one pays € 18 per kvintale wood (0,18 pr kg. and gives 4,26KWH) the cost pr KWH is € 0,045 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]What does your electricity kost?[/SIZE]

[quote=livarandsofie;85093]Wood ovens are not for everyone but for those that appreciate and understand them they can be very cost effective (must have a cheap of free source of wood) and addictive.[/quote]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]A open fireplace has a 15-20 % efficiency but an new sophisticated wood burner has an efficiency of appr. 80% of the burned wood. Burning pellets can improve the effect up to 90%.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]One kilo of wood with 20% rest moisture can give 4,26 KWH. At 80% that means 3,4 KWH. At 90% 3.8 KWH.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I do not know what every one of you can expect to pay for wood, but in Puglia I have seen prices as low as € 9 per kvintale, i.e 340 KWH. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Electricity at a cost of 0,20 pr KWH means that 340 KWH will set you back € 68,-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Even if one pays € 18 per kvintale wood (0,18 pr kg. and gives 4,26KWH) the cost pr KWH is € 0,045 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]What does your electricity kost?[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I suppose that if you have a free supply of wood then a wood fired oven would be an advantage. Just looking at the specs of a few that were listed then they say that on high fire then the wood would last 30 mins. There is no capacity listed though as wood varies in weight.
The oven here is 90cm wide and uses 3Kwh so 2 hrs cooking with electricity in theory costs from your calculations Euro 1.20 approx. Reduce that with the time that the oven switches on and off then it is about half that time, so 60 cents.
Advantage is, I dont have to keep bringing wood in, or cutting it to size in the middle of winter, cleaning the ash pan, just to cook. Labour saving cost or fun factor?

The ones I'm looking at are rated at 1kg per hour at 300C. That's after reaching 300C which takes 5-7kg. So lets say 8kg for the first hour. I pay 15Euros for 100kg. The first hour costs 1.20 at that rate and every hour after that is an additional 15cents. For 300 C Lower temps will burn less wood. My electric oven doesn't reach 300C. The wood oven goes much higher. Of course it'll burn more wood at higher temps but when you need 400C you need 400C.

The cooking area is 92x52x45cm. Which compares nicely with the shoe box size electric oven I have.

OTOH I doubt many people are installing these things to save money. A nice gas stove is cheaper and likely costs less to run. But it won't give you the flavour etc of a wood fire. Which is the reason for wood cooking.

[quote=livarandsofie;84242]:no:If the wood is not dry (less than 20% moisture) you can expect tar and soot to build up in the chimney. And this tar and soot can ignite and burn. If that happens, the chimney may be destroyed beyond repair. It takes only a temperature of a little more than 100 c to ignite, and when burning the temp. rise to 1300-1400 degrees!
Same thing can happen if the air supply to the fire is restricted. :no:[/quote]

The flame temperature of a fire should be over 500ºc to achieve full combustion of the wood. Yes you are correct unseasoned wood above 16-20% moisture content will create resin and tar build up this occurs also with poor draft (not enough oxygen), but last I read resins and tar ignite at around 750ºc then it rises to 1300-1400ºc.

Burning season wood with plenty of oxygen is the most efficient way of burning wood and hence the need for an all important essential piece of kit - An Accumulator!!

There is no other piece of kit that can help you burn wood more efficiently and save time and money and it works well with solar as well.

[QUOTE=NickZ;85196]The ones I'm looking at are rated at 1kg per hour at 300C. That's after reaching 300C which takes 5-7kg. So lets say 8kg for the first hour. I pay 15Euros for 100kg. The first hour costs 1.20 at that rate and every hour after that is an additional 15cents. For 300 C Lower temps will burn less wood. My electric oven doesn't reach 300C. The wood oven goes much higher. Of course it'll burn more wood at higher temps but when you need 400C you need 400C.

The cooking area is 92x52x45cm. Which compares nicely with the shoe box size electric oven I have.

OTOH I doubt many people are installing these things to save money. A nice gas stove is cheaper and likely costs less to run. But it won't give you the flavour etc of a wood fire. Which is the reason for wood cooking.[/QUOTE]
Most electric ovens only reach around 250C, enough to cook a good rare whole beef fillet. Even the oil fired raburn we had managed that very well.
Don't know about getting the wood flavour though as the oven should be completely isolated from the heat source, otherwise fumes will also get onto the kitchen when you open the oven door.
Maybe the option to reach 400C is to allow you to fire bricks for housebuilding purposes !!!!!

[quote=manopello;85046]has anyone heard of the company 'WAMSLER'?Are they around in italy ?[URL="http://www.wamslercookers.co.uk/html/ch_900.html"]Wamsler 900 Series Central Heating Cooker[/URL]

They make wood burning aga type stoves that can heat a house /hot water.In the UK they are about £2,600 much less than an aga but they look good and would fit the bill for a lot us house restorers looking for something functional but also good looking.[/quote]

Used one for 22 years in Sweden to service our acc tank water mantled 19Kw. replaced it with a new one exactly the same. I paid 19.000 skr last which converts to about £1500. £2.600 is way too much negotiate you'll get it for less.

:smile:

[quote=Geotherm;85205]
Don't know about getting the wood flavour though as the oven should be completely isolated from the heat source, otherwise fumes will also get onto the kitchen when you open the oven door.
Maybe the option to reach 400C is to allow you to fire bricks for housebuilding purposes !!!!![/quote]

When you open the door on your fireplace does the smoke fill the house? :eeeek:

Traditonal bread/pizza ovens would have a fire/embers in one side and the food in the middle. I think these have been banned now by big brother :eerr:

400C or higher is for pizza.

[quote=NickZ;85214]When you open the door on your fireplace does the smoke fill the house? :eeeek:

Traditonal bread/pizza ovens would have a fire/embers in one side and the food in the middle. I think these have been banned now by big brother :eerr:

400C or higher is for pizza.[/quote]
Yes, it does Nick, but as we only burn a fire about 6 times a year, then it's no problem.
Forgot about bread/pizza, but we have the original oven outside for that and use it for cooking lots of other things as well in the summer.

[quote=livarandsofie;85093]Wood ovens are not for everyone but for those that appreciate and understand them they can be very cost effective (must have a cheap of free source of wood) and addictive.[/quote]

[SIZE=3]A open fireplace has a 15-20 % efficiency but an new sophisticated wood burner has an efficiency of appr. 80% of the burned wood. Burning pellets can improve the effect up to 90%.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]One kilo of wood with 20% rest moisture can give 4,26 KWH. At 80% that means 3,4 KWH. At 90% 3.8 KWH.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I do not know what every one of you can expect to pay for wood, but in Puglia I have seen prices as low as € 9 per kvintale, i.e 340 KWH. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Electricity at a cost of 0,20 pr KWH means that 340 KWH will set you back € 68,-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Even if one pays € 18 per kvintale wood (0,18 pr kg. and gives 4,26KWH) the cost pr KWH is € 0,045 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]What does your electricity kost?[/SIZE][/quote]

You have to be careful with manufacturers' claims they tend to include in their efficiencies the amount of energy to the surrounding area and measure in absolute perfect conditions which as we all know is seldom. This means enough oxygen, constant negative pressure in the chimney, perfectly dry wood, et cetera et cetera. Although pellet burners will give marginally more they tend to be more expensive in purchase.

Wood fires in realty very seldom work in this manner and seldom give over 72/73%. Most of the posters to this forum - I can guarantee- have few or none of the perfect conditions needed to achieve even the norm of 72% max and their efficiencies are significantly lower.

But all studies show that the cheapest energy source is wood. In this you are correct however I would say the correct value is more like 9 -10 cents/Kw half the cost of enel.

:smile:

Just to add fuel to the fire (groan) on cost of woodburners, I used to install second hand ones in the cottages on the estates that I used to work on paying a maximum of £200. The last one I bought for a mate of mine cost just £25. It is saving him over a £1000 per year in heating, cooking and hot water costs. He hasn't had to use his oil boiler since installation although it is linked and can be used if needed. He's the one with a big smile on his face! I have a one in a container in the uk that I picked up for nothing, if cost is an issue there are other routes.

[quote=lotan4850;85201]The flame temperature of a fire should be over 500ºc to achieve full combustion of the wood. Yes you are correct unseasoned wood above 16-20% moisture content will create resin and tar build up this occurs also with poor draft (not enough oxygen), but last I read resins and tar ignite at around 750ºc then it rises to 1300-1400ºc. [/quote]

[LEFT]According to several experts on wood firing in Norway, chimneyfires can occur at very low temperatures.

The conditions at which phenomena occur is if a product called tarsoot is produced. (I do not know the English word for it) Tarsoot is formed not only in the chimney, but in the flue and oven itself. It is a mixture of moist acids and distillates formed during the burning process if the wood is not dry enough to burn with a high temperature. The tarsoot solidifies when cooling down and is extremely easy to ignite. It can ignite at temperatures down to appr. 100C.

([URL="http://www.pipeeksperten.no/pipebrann.html"][COLOR=#551a8b]http://www.pipeeksperten.no/pipebrann.html[/COLOR][/URL] Maybe Lothan4850 understand and can translate better than me.)[/LEFT]

To reduce the risk of chimney fires install your stove on an insulated chimney.
For example that means running a flexible liner down the chimney with insulation round it, using pumice chimney liners (solid masonry liners), a twin wall insulated chimney system.
When burning (if burning wood) burn only seasoned wood and do not slumber burn or overnight burn. You should see good flames in the firebox.
Sweep your chimney at least once a year, twice if only burning wood and you may also need top sweep more often - it depends what and how much you are burning.
Read more about this and chimney fires here:
[url=http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/chimney-fire-stats.html]Chimney fires statistics and percentages[/url]

Wamslers do make very good range cookers.

: )

As we only need to light our woodstove for a few days each winter when we have short visits, our neighbour suggested we try batons of compressed wood. (We haven't got a pellet stove).
These dont take up much room to store and give out a really fierce heat which is wonderful when it's really cold as it's our only source of heating. Useful for someone who hasn't got room for masses of wood.
ciao
pam