9036 Price or culture

Think all it will do Neilo is to encourage even more people to go over to the continent and buy their booze and drink there, so the Black Market sales will increase. Maybe he is cutting his own throat!!!!

I think one of the major problems in the yUK, is the amount of disposable income, wages are higher, kids are staying with there parents longer, and the state of the country as a whole.
These guys see no way out , cant afford to buy a house, if they can, the interest rates will kill them, if they default they are out on there butts.......not much to look forward to. Im sorry say.:no:

It's an age old culture thing.There was a bit in the Telegraph yesterday Walter Raleigh wrote a book warning his son about the evil of alcohol.Then theres Hogarth's painting's of Gin lane/Beer Alley nothing changes

[quote=PAS 55;85193]There was a bit in the Walter Raleigh wrote a book warning his son about the evil of alcohol.[/quote]

Hi Pas
Maybe we would have been better off writing about the evils of smoking and potatoes, then maybe there would not be so many overweight coughers about .
( I do of course include myself in this :laughs:)

I think it's definitely the "drinking culture" -- which we see plenty of here in the US as well, despite draconian drunk driving and alcohol-buying age limits (21+). My friends were always shocked that I included wine (watered down) with every dinner for my children, starting around age 6 (my parents did the same for us), but none of my kids has a drinking problem, or even did binge drinking in college -- in their mind, what's the point -- you get sick, stupid, raped, rolled, arrested, etc., etc. I've rarely seen an Italian drunk.

Every weekend some "kid" gets drunk and drives into a ditch or worse.

I think deborahandricky is partly right. Many don't see a future and need an outlet.

The Italian culture does make drinking less exciting. Who wants to drink when your parents etc all think it's a normal thing? :eeeek: Teenagers don't have a history of doing what their parents think is normal :bigergrin:

But raising prices? Just leads to the kids looking for the cheapest highest bang for the money. Or worse doing some thing illegal to get money for the booze.

I think it's a Northern Europe vs. Southern Europe culture difference. Everyone who lives North of a line from Moscow to Penzance gets depressed by the weather and drinks to escape it.

Maybe if some parents stayed home and encouraged more of a family life instead of happily nicking of to the pub or wherever leaving the kids to do there own thing and fend for themselves some of the kids would grow up with different values.

I don't think putting up the price of wine/beer will make much difference, as some people will only cut out buying other things to pay for their drink.
Also, some of the celebrities who get drunk in public and think it is ok, unfortunately this sends out a message to the public in general that binge drinking is acceptable, which it clearly isn't.
I don't really know what the solution is. Perhaps more coverage on television, or in the newspapers of the effects of excess alcohol on the body and what problems it can cause in their future health.

Francesca

I blame the parents. Yes that includes me......

I agree with much of what has already been said - I think it is definitely a cultural attitude and and an acceptance that it is okay to be drunk. Few of our female Italian friends (of any age) drink more than a glass of wine with a meal and many of the young males have told us that if they drank too much, no female would be interested in them so what's the point! They simply do not understand the concept of binge drinking and would not entertain the idea.

Raising the cost in UK will not change attitudes to drinking - here a litre of wine can cost less than a litre of coca cola so I don't think a higher price will change anything.

An Italian friend once told us that the difference between the Brits and Italians is simple - if an Italian were given E20 to buy a bottle of wine he would buy one good quality bottle and savour every sip - the Brit would buy 20 cheap bottles and drink it all without tasting any of it. I think he has a point!

Not sure whether blame can be apportioned and if so to whom but I just wish kids could be allowed to be kids these days. I look at 13/14 year olds who are so keen to be "grown up" - every magazine aimed at them is blabbing about sex and wild nights out. The clothes they promote are outragiously provocative and these blasted beebo type sites are horrendous - with all of the girls posting pouting photo's and the boys boasting about drinking etc to try to look cool. (God I'm beginning to sound like my father!).

Worse - kids now are under so much pressure - I think I read somewhere that they are the most "tested" generation. Is it any wonder they turn to drink, after all they see their parents coming home after a stressful day gagging for a glass of wine (or two).

Jackie

Problems with alcohol abuse are happening everywhere and Italy is not an exception although in small towns or villages it would be more difficult to detect as younger people tend to go to larger towns and cities to get drunk far away from their families and neighbours. Italians are very concerned about this and you only have to do a search through google.it to get plenty of information. You can also have a look at [url=http://it.health.yahoo.net/p_news.asp?id=15610&c=45&s=14]Abuso di alcol nei minori e negli adulti: chi ci guadagna e quanto? - Yahoo! Salute[/url]
As for increasing prices, I do not think that this would work or discourage young people in the UK, the USA, Italy or anywhere.
Education and good moral values are important: however, most adolescents and young people go through a phase of "rebels without (or perhaps with) a cause" and I think that it would be very difficult, even for stricter parents, to control what they do.
The breakdown of families is also a factor which does not help to solve this worldwide problem.
Perhaps we would need some sort of "revolution" to change the course. Not in the litteral sense but perhaps in our minds and in our souls. Religion used to help to control many of these issues; however, religion is not highly regarded nowadays. This also takes us to another thread on what the Vatican has been saying about drug abuse. Alcohol is also a drug.

Rankings over the last 50 years

Year 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 present
Italy 2 2 11 14 17 22
UK N/A 20 21 19 12 9
USA 10 14 19 21 23 20

Strange that the UK never made the top 25 in the 60's........so it could be just all us baby boomers...........

Sorry I cant them lined up to well but I hope you get the idea

I agree that putting the price up in the UK will make no difference to the attitude towards binge drinking. However in Italy I have noticed that beer drinking is becoming more popular. I don’t feel so out of place in the bar in the village, as I used to when I was a teenager on holiday. With disapproving looks from the locals, and some of my relatives. Because I was ready for my second Peroni and they were still on the first. The big difference is the Italians don’t get aggressive, and want to kick your head in, as some brits do because they caught you looking at them.

Hi Attillo7, I know that feeling well! Italy's the only place I've been where the owner of the bar actually dissaproves of people drinking in it! I get a dispensation because i'm foreign and don't know any better, but woe betide a local who went back to the fridge for a 2nd beer :-)

and while we're at it, can you imagine a bar in glasgow where they kept the beer in a fridge on the public side of the counter and the punters helped themselves ...

The price increase has absolutely nothing to do with stopping binge drinking- if it was it would have been put onto "alcopops" not wine- as someone on Sky News said yesterday- how many kids drinking on street corners are drinking wine- it is all about getting more revenue from "soft" targets- you know those mugs who arrogantly believe that working for a living, buying your own home and supporting yourself and your family is something to aspire to and that a couple of glasses of wine at the weekdnd are your reward (and they have to be drunk at home as your local high street is a no go zone from about 6pm on Thursday to 6am Monday morning). It's just another stealth tax! as for binge drinking- we,ve all done it- the difference is that people no longer seem to grow out of it and it is seen as a badge of honour to get pissed as often as humanly possible, but to me it just seems to be indicative of the loss of control that is now ingrained in the UK society- excessive eating, drinking & violence seem to be in the news every day. On the other hand though I didn't often see someone drinking wine at 9am as I did in my local bar in Italy yesterday so it looks like everywhere has alcohol problems, just different ones

[quote] On the other hand though I didn't often see someone drinking wine at 9am as I did in my local bar in Italy yesterday so it looks like everywhere has alcohol problems, just different ones [/quote]

Not that strange though, you see alot of manual workers having a shot of alcohol around 9am,but the diference is, thats it. Now can you imagine that happening here in the UK? just one drink,and thats it?

Lets not try making comparisons where there are not, drinking on the streets/parks, underage drunkeness and binge drinking regular are a real problem here in the UK.

Italy has a long way to go to get to the same state,lets hope they can nip it in the bud.

[quote=HelenMW;85373] On the other hand though I didn't often see someone drinking wine at 9am as I did in my local bar in Italy yesterday so it looks like everywhere has alcohol problems, just different ones[/quote]

I think my comment is much along the same lines of giovanni's. You see having a glass of wine at 9am as 'an alcohol problem'. Why? What has the time of day got to do with when having a glass of wine is 'not' an alcohol problem? I think you have demonstrated quite wonderfully the difference in attitude to booze between Britain and the Continent!

Some people may be surprised at how many Italians (I think mostly the older generation) drink wine at what seems like a strange time of the day. My dad is 77 and has always had a small glass of wine at breakfast (probably 3 or 4 times a week depending on what he is eating), one for lunch and one for dinner every day. He doesn't drink it because it's alcohol, he sees it as having a glass of his homemade grape juice that's good for you and he has never ever had more than two small glasses with an evening meal. The only other drink he has is a very occasional beer. I would say the same habit is enjoyed by all my Uncles (10 of them just on my Dad's side of the family) in England and Italy of the same generation.
Of course the younger generation in Italy seem to enjoy alcohol a bit more these days but I think it's still much less than most other countries and is frowned upon by everyone especially parents. Anyone thought to start drinking a bit more than normal would be seen as a serious family matter and practically all the close relatives would show concern.

I was brought up with a very small amount of wine mixed with water or lemonade if I wanted one with an evening meal mostly at weekends from a young age of about 10 or 11. I believe this is the secret. Don't create an environment where many teenagers can't wait until they're 18 to get to the pub and have their first legal drink. None of my Italian friends or I ever had this urge to get a drink or get drunk at any age.

Ok I will tell you why, in some cases, I see drinking at 9am in the morning an issue. One of the guys I saw drinking has some kind of affliction caused by alcoholism which means he has a neck which is bigger than his head- his drink at 9am is the first of many throughout the day. There are at least 4 old guys in my town who spend the whole day standing in the square chatting between visits to the 5 local bars- these are not workers having a glass of wine before work.Also there is another guy in a neighbouring town who works for the council who by lunchtime is smashed out of his skull & is driving a council vehicle around (more than once with interesting consequences). These are not isolated cases. There is also a problem here with drink driving, as due to the cultural differences it is not unusual for people to have a couple of glasses of wine with lunch & then get in their car & drive (Remembering of course that the drink drive limit is lower here than in the UK). And before I get jumped on again I know this also happens in the UK- the difference is that in the UK people do it knowing full well they shouldn't.I am by no means saying that everyone who has a drink at 9am is an alcoholic but I also think there some people who have commented on what I said while looking through rose coloured glasses- remember a lot of alcoholics manage to cope without outward signs.

I remember being on a course once with an alcoholic who said that you didn't need to be smashed all the time to be one, but merely be an habitual drinker. He said that if you had two glasses of wine every night you were in some eyes an alcoholic (probably most of us then!).

As far as there being a drink problem in Italy it was reported on the forum last year that the main issue is drink driving and that the number of drink related deaths on roads during the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning were alarming. As the limit is lower than the uk though I'm not sure whether such accidents were a direct cause of [B] heavy [/B] drinking or a combination of youngsters being very tired and falling asleep at the wheel or just plain inexperienced drivers. I'm sure that in the clubs away from the parental gaze even Italians go a bit wild!

Jackie

Another difference between the Italian and British 'wine' drinking habit can be found [I]when[/I] they drink wine.

I have never known the older 'average' Italians drink wine if it was not to accompany food. Please understand that I am not speaking about the younger generations because I suspect that this is/has become acceptable to them and so they do.

Now the British think nothing of opening a bottle as soon as they get home from work, or when they are at home 'generally' - just to relax! Then when they go to pubs and wine bars etc. it's the same. It often doesn't stop at one bottle either. But they are drinking what they consider to be a really [I]light[/I] acoholic drink (it's not as if I'm on 'shorts' they cry) - not one which can be up to 12/13% proof. In addition they often drink on an empty stomach - never a good idea I was taught and which I believe is excellent advice.

It's one of those cultural differences I suppose. If grapes grew in the UK in times past then we may have developed a different attitude to drinking wine - but they didn't and we (in general) haven't! The shame is that wherever you live, there are enough warnings these days about the risks of drinking and driving for everyone to understand. The pity is that too many consider that these risks would NEVER apply to them - after all, [U]they[/U] can hold their drink!

I agree with most of what has been stated by Jackie C and Helen. Although Italians are classed as "moderate" drinkers, by European standards, the alcohol-related problems are increasing, particularly amongst the young ones. To think only of the older generation having a glass or two of their home-made wine with their meal is a bit of a rosy picture. You only have to look at the enormous array of alcoholic drinks available at any supermarket to realise that people are into the consumption of all sorts of beverages and that it is not light consumption. We cannot blame foreigners alone for that. There is an increasing number of alcohol related accidents, particularly young people. You only have to do a quick search through google.it under "alcol abuso Italia" and you get plenty of relevant information.
Oh! According to some statistics I managed to see that way, it looks as if the problem is bigger in the North than in the South of Italy. Interesting!

[quote=Gala Placidia;85563]
There is an increasing number of alcohol related accidents, particularly young people......![/quote]

If you are saying that young people are increasingly the result of alcohol related accidents, I could no agree more.:laughs:

Sorry, Nielo, I missed the word amongst.... this is what happens when you write a quick reply. Having clarified that, I tend to agree with you on your funny comment.

One only has to read the newspapers on a sunday and a monday to recognise the number of young people being killed on italian roads after a night out. Italian disco's appear to close at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning so tiredness undoubtedly plays a part, but common sense dictates that so do alcohol and drugs. In the UK someone driving the wrong way up the motorway is usually an old guy who has got confused, here it is usually a young person under the effect of alcohol and drugs.

I agree that young people here in Le Marche are not seen drunk in the village (except perhaps during major festivals). There is little community respect for those seen to have lost control of their senses (I also get away with it to a large extent as I am foreign!). This does not mean that there is not a drink problem amongst them, but I doubt that it compares to the one we have in the UK. I haven't been to the disco's so I cannot really comment!

I agree that it is a northern european problem - let's face it during july I would prefer to wake up dehydrated and with a headache anywhere in the UK rather than in Le Marche under the glorious sun!

Any price increases in alcohol risks increasing the consumption of other drugs (which by all accounts is already spiralling out of control). At least then the government can say that alcohol consumption has gone down!!

I always cringe when I hear people say that children are under so much pressure today that is why they have problems. Life is hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not a bed of roses, never has been and never will be!!!!! How do we know how much pressure kids were under 70 years ago? Were there surveys? Or were people too busy trying to survive? Kids are spoilt today: they have too many designer clothes, too much pocket money and too much television! Kids are no longer able to entertain themselves as I did growing up (amazing the fun you can have with a tennis ball or a skipping rope). I didn't tell my mother I was bored after the time she replied: only boring people get bored! Television is destroying children (makes a great babysitter apparently). If youngsters are not equipped with the necessary skills to deal with life, is it any wonder that they turn from television to other stimulants such as alcohol and drugs.

Back to Le Marche: Here there are however alcoholics of all ages. As Helen says, there are those in every village that do nothing all day but walk up and down the village visiting bars before setting off home in their cars. Drink driving is a huge problem mainly ignored by the local police! If alcoholism is less of a problem here, drink driving is a much bigger problem than in th UK.

It would be nice to think that here in italy they all just like to enjoy a glass of top quality wine with their meals. It just isn't true!!! Some people do, undoubtedly, as my aunts and uncles do in the UK and my parents will do when in company. However wine is not as much the drink of the middle classes as it is in the UK, in fact where I live it is more the drink of the common people. I was once told that I should drink lager in the bars and not wine as it was not elegant to drink wine in public!! But it costs 60 cents a glass!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm losing track of this message...............

I suppose I think that Italy has less of an alcohol problem than in the UK, but that that isn't really saying much bearing in mind the scenes that most town or city centres in the UK witness during the weekends. It has an alcohol problem and also a serious drug problem. Even in my sweet little medieval village!! Can't see any point in pretending that it doesn't, even if it is less visible!

Jo
[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url]

I have said in another thread that I think my part of italy is 30 or 40 years behind the UK. I suspect that there will be a quick and unpleasant catch up caused by the current young generation. I often hear the same stuff here about how hard it is for youngsters today to get good jobs, marry, pay for a home, have children etc etc. I repeat: It has always been hard!!!

We all know that Italians marry very late and are reluctant to leave home. If this continues they will have more disposable income for entertainment and we may arrive at the point where they too forget to stop binge drinking in their early twenties.

I find it difficult to compare my village with 2500 residents (over a 23 sqkm area) to the towns with populations of 20000 or more that I lived in in the UK. But, I would certainly say that there appears to be less drinking amongst women. I suspect that this will change. Youngsters today are not bound by the strict catholic codes that their grandparents drummed into their parents. It will be interesting to watch and when I am 80 years old I can sit in the bar with my infamous glass of wine, shaking my head and saying "you know it was never like this 50 years ago."

I've never understood the stats. Does it include home made wine? Grappa?

Wine with breakfast would have been pretty common in the old days. The calories were needed if nothing else.

Somebody shows up for a visit out would come the wine or something harder. Sure a snack or more would be offered but wine wouldn't be hiding.

Cafe correcto works all winter long. Morning or later.

[quote=Steve Graham;85204]I think it's a Northern Europe vs. Southern Europe culture difference. Everyone who lives North of a line from Moscow to Penzance gets depressed by the weather and drinks to escape it.[/quote]

Spot on Steve! This is indisputable. Having lived in both climes, I know this to be an absolute. No more to add.

A heading in Il Messagero 21st March 2008 following the deaths of Mary Collins and Ann Gubbins recently killed in Rome by a drunk driver several times over the limit:

"E ora c'è il "binge-drinking"
tanto alcol, tutto in una sera"

Jo Williams
[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url]

Interesting thread. We've just recently bought in Italy and owning a Grocers/Off-Licence in Scotland, I've had many a conversation regarding the drinking habits of the Brits vs Italians. As someone said, in the UK a large percentage of people (not just kids by the way) drink to get drunk. I serve people each day who boast about how bladdered they were the night before and how many times they were sick. In Scotland, and I'm sure the rest of the UK, drinking is seen as macho. "If you canni handle yer drink yer a wimp" (got to be PC). And the biggest problem is now actually not with young boys, but the young girls. Is this the same in Italy?

And to get back to the original posting....... It makes not one bit of difference to the drinker how expensive the drink is. I've seen it over the last two weeks when I put up the price of the alcohol. I've had a couple of people remark on the price, but they still paid the asking price in the end. Bottom line is that it's more money for the governments coffers.

However, I've got bad news for all you sensible kinds out there. I believe the official description of a 'binge' is, to take three times your daily allowance of alcohol in one sitting. So for a woman that means 6 units of alcohol or two thirds of a bottle of wine. And for men, about 1 bottle and a third. Maybe I should revisit some of the reasons I have for wanting to move out to Italy.

:swoon: