9174 The end of civilisation as we know it

Civilisation as we know it has just collapsed. The curse of modern civilisation, McDonald’s, has just arrived in Sarzana. I had been so happy that kids in this country still ate real food and knew what it was. Now… the future looks bleak. No doubt now Italian kids, like their equivalents the western world over, will succumb to the temptations of artificial food and become big fat blobs! There is still the hope that a repeat of Benevento is going to happen in Sarzana. When we visited a winery near this provincial town in Campania, the 17 year old brother of the cantina took us on a guided tour. When we passed a wrecked building, he informed us, that it used to be a McDonald’s, however they had closed permanently after having had their windows smashed repeatedly and generally proved unpopular. Somehow I don’t think the Northern Italians quite have that revolutionary spirit any more. Maybe I’m going to have to start an anti-McDonald’s campaign myself.

Category

General chat about Italy

Think they have already got their foot well in the door. Going to Ascoli Piceno thismorning, ther were loads of signs to their crappy food "restaurants"

They had one in Taranto back in 2001, but curiously, it doesn't appear to be there any more (unless they moved to another site)

The one in Ventimiglia is lodged behind a petrol station - not a very friendly site - hardly in the main town at all. Usually fairly empty when we pass - so there's hope.

No need to worry; the Italians will never get the hang of fast food. We have a Mcd's near the coast here and have visited it. We queued behind the three other customers and ordered, only to be told to go take a seat and the food would be brought to us.

About 5 minutes later the chips arrived, a minute or so after that the drinks. After we had eaten the chips and drunk the drinks the big mac's finally turned up!

While we were waiting we watched two very elegant ladies, of a certain age, come in, it was obviously their first visit and they spent a long time deciding on their order. Eventually they went to their table with two 'Happy meals' we could see they were not impressed!

The thing with McD’s is that you can get something to eat at any time, if you have mistimed things and are hungry at 2.30pm at least you know they will still be serving, whereas most Italian restaurants will be closed.

Given the Italian suspicion for ‘foreign’ food I don’t think there is much chance of a takeover!

[quote=Nielo;86328]The thing with McD’s is that you can get something to eat at any time, if you have mistimed things and are hungry at 2.30pm at least you know they will still be serving, whereas most Italian restaurants will be closed.[/quote]
Same applies if one should be insane (or foreign) enough to actually want to eat an evening meal before 8pm.

Personally, I continue to have great difficulties coming to terms with the fact that, in Italy, one must learn to organise one's life around siesta and opening hours that vary from shop to shop.

Given the opinions expressed here, I suppose I will be viewed with contempt for admitting it, but I have eaten in McDonalds in both Pescara and Collonella three or four times in the last six months. (By way of mitigation, it was mainly due to my pregnant companion needing a rapid protein fix in a form that she knew would not cause tummy upset.)

I recall the places being quite busy for the time of day and the service was not bad at all.

As for the idea that a few McDonalds restaurants will turn Italian kids into fat blobs, my perception is that there are quite a few obese Italian kids already. And in any case, I don't recall ever hearing of kids being dragged in off the street and stuffed full of Big Macs. If Italian kids get fat (or fatter) due to McDonalds, then it seems to me that Italian parents need to accept a large part of the responsibility for that.

Blaming fast food restaurants for our own gluttony is easy, but it seems to me no more valid than someone blaming their problem with alcohol on the low cost of wine in Italy or someone having a costly experience buying property in Italy and then blaming Italy Magazine for putting the idea of buying an Italian house into their head.

I don't like fish so I never visit seafood restaurants, but it would be pretty daft of me to start a campaign against them, wouldn't it?

If you don't like the food served by McDonalds, I suggest you not go into one. But if the very existence of McDonalds offends you, then it seems to me those feelings are not all that distant from the emotions that motivate fanatics of all stripes.

My worry is that once that it'll start with kids being taken there for a treat, because it's cheap and easy. Once they get addicted to these places, many will go through life preferring it to the traditional foods. Once they grow up, instead of the pranzo di lavoro for €10 at a family run trattoria, where they get a fresh pasta course and some proper meat and potatoes, they will go to Mcd's, leaving a lot of places struggling to survive. I'm not talking about within months, but within a generation or so. Mcd's has an aggressive expansion and marketing programme, wherever they go. So in the end we will have lesser choice. One of the great things in Italy are the local sagras in each village, where all generations get involved. But by internationalising the food these may eventually be dying out or become curious tourist attractions. I don't object to the food itself and of course I won't eat in there, but I'm worried about the future of the local culture. In the UK already local food cultures have all but died out do to the fast food chains. Maybe I'm over dramatizing and if all that will happen is that there will be an extra choice for those hours when everything else is shut, then all the better.

[quote=AllanMason;86329]
I don't like fish so I never visit seafood restaurants, but it would be pretty daft of me to start a campaign against them, wouldn't it?
l[/quote]

No but if the local drug dealer started giving out toys with his drugs. Putting ads up all over. Using cartoons to promote things. In general targetting kids you might consider it a problem. Guess what kids are being targeted. Marketers know getting kids hooked means hooking them for life.

Are parents to blame for not saying no to kids? I guess but I doubt most drug users were pushed by their parents into drug use.

[quote=Heiko;86335]My worry is that once that it'll start with kids being taken there for a treat, because it's cheap and easy..[/quote]

I think you have a valid concern but it depends upon where the dreaded M or BK is situated ie how convenient it is. One opened up close to a fairly central primary school attended by friends' children in Rome. Unusually, the school finishes at 4pm every day - for too many children a daily Happy Meal became a quick treat to replace a more simple and healthier snack given to children to fill a gap before going on to the after school activity of swimming, basketball etc
There is already an increasing number of obese children in Italy - I don't think all the blame can be put on fast food but it obviously doesn't help.

[quote=NickZ;86336]No but if the local drug dealer started giving out toys with his drugs. Putting ads up all over. Using cartoons to promote things. In general targetting kids you might consider it a problem. Guess what kids are being targeted. Marketers know getting kids hooked means hooking them for life.

Are parents to blame for not saying no to kids? I guess but I doubt most drug users were pushed by their parents into drug use.[/quote]
Very emotive, but I have great difficulty in equating a Big Mac with heroin -- or even tobacco.

Yes, multinational companies are big because they're very good at selling their product. It's usually a matter of opinion whether a particular product is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing. My personal view is that choice is good: sometimes I want a balanced meal along the lines of the tradional British dinner, sometimes I want just some pasta and a simple dressing based on passata, sometimes I'm happy to spend three hours eating lunch in an agriturismo and very occasionally I feel like making the main meal of the day a guilt-inducing high-calorie, high-fat, high-protein meal from Burger King (which I much prefer to McD's).

What I find fundamentally dishonest and far too easy is the current "victim culture": the idea that none of us bear any responsibility for anything bad that we do to ourselves or that happens to us (or to the children we're responsible for).

I smoked heavily for more than 20 years. If I get cancer, it would be very easy for me to blame the tobacco industry for that, but the uncomfortable truth is that [B][I]I[/I][/B] made a decision to start smoking and [B][I]I[/I][/B] voluntarily handed over money daily to buy more cigarettes. I was fully aware of the facts; I knew what smoking was likely to do to me in the long term and I could feel what it was doing to me in the short term, but [I][B]I[/B][/I] chose to continue smoking.

Although it has been several years since I quit, I know I damaged my lungs by smoking. I could comply with the currently fashionable victim mentality and blame Big Tobacco and their advertising for that, but that would be dishonest.

It seems to me similary dishonest to believe that any of us will be forced by advertising to buy ourselves or our children a meal at McDonalds. I know a bit about addition and I cannot ascribe addictive qualities to a piece of minced meat topped with some sauces, a couple of slices of pickle and a bit of lettuce and stuck between two pieces of soggy bread.

As for the possible dangers to traditional dishes posed by McDonalds and its ilk, well, if fast food culture has indeed reduced interest in traditional dishes in Britain, perhaps that might have something to do with those traditional dishes not being all that fantastic to begin with?

Given the profound conservatism of Italians when it comes to food, I find it very difficult to believe there will ever come a day when there's a prospering McDonalds in every village and no other place to eat.

[CENTER][IMG]http://www.annaghvarn.plus.com/umbria2006/p1010501.jpg[/IMG]
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McDonald's, in Assisi. It just didn't seem right. What would St. Francis have thought? :eeeek:

[quote=AllanMason;86345]

Then you weren't like most kids. When I was a kid most started smoking because of peer pressure of one sort or another. I think we'd be hard pressed to find too many kids who have really thought about the risks of smoking and still smoke. Kids just don't worry about next year or the twenty years down the line.

It's no different with many of the other bad habits that start in childhood. Kids face a bombardment of peer pressure and advertising. Telling them they SHOULD want something. No kid was ever born saying Ronald. Or wanting to stick a lit bundle of tobacco in their mouthes. Those are learned.

eat like a king, not like a clown!

I think that you guys are looking at this the wrong way. When I visited Italy, there were a couple of times where i was hungry but couldn't find an open place to get some food. I think Mc'Ds will solve this basic problem. Some worry about your future generations getting hooked on fast food, but even here in the states people hate Mc'Ds and only eat there as a last resort. One benifit of having this or other fast food chains will be to provide young kids with a way to earn money and to learn the value of working to get the things they want. I am not trying to imply that italian kids are spoiled by any means; i do think that they are like any other group of kids in that they need to learn that money doesn't grow on trees.

In the end please do whatever needs to be done to preserve your great food tradition. The world will be filled with mourning if we ever lose out on the greatness that is italian cousine.

Ok the comparison with the drug dealer may be a bit extreme, but the principal is correct in my opinion. Kids are targeted and it’s not an increase in choice, but in the long run a decrease in choice, which is exactly what I’m arguing against. Italians may be conservative in their food choice, but have you spoken to any teenagers? Our next door neighbour here in Italy is a long distance lorry driver. He says he relies on McDonald’s especially when he is up in Scandinavia, where it is the only affordable option, and he knows what he is getting wherever he goes. That’s fine and a free choice. He has taken his son to a relatively distant MacDonald’s for a birthday treat, which is still ok. But this boy now thinks as McDonald’s as something special and now he has one on his door step.

But to get this discussion out of a more hypothetical level, my wife, who teaches English at the secondary school nearest to the said new outlet decided to do a little survey with her kids next. She teaches 200 teenagers and the results may be encouraging or not, I’ll keep you informed. Questions will include what their favourite food is, whether they have been to a McDonald’s before and how often they would use it in the future. Any particular questions you would like included, let us know.

The other argument, that the UK never had much of a food culture I cannot accept. Ok I’m not British, but if you look around there are traditional foods, only you have to look bloody hard for them. Fast food is of course not solely to blame, their was the economic crisis of the 1960’s and 70’s that made people turn for these cheap alternatives. With Britain for centuries being an economic powerhouse a ‘cucina povera’ like in Italy never developed, however there are recipes that have been handed down the generations. My 93 year old mother-in-law in Belfast is full of wholesome soups, shepherd’s pies and such like. Never looks in any fancy cookery books.

well it was Petrini`s response to Ronald McD trying to get a foothold in Rome that brought about the birth of Slow Food...so at least that`s one great thing...

I cannot accept Heiko's rose tinted vew of Empire Building UK mitigating against the evolution of a 'thrifty' tradition in cooking............however, when I saw in the frozen food compartment in the UK pre-prepared 'bubble and squeak' I stopped and stared in complete bewilderment!

Well, if we are so worried, perhaps it is time to join them:

[url=http://www.slowfood.com/]Slow Food International[/url]

After all it is an Italian initiative.

[quote=Steve Graham;86352][CENTER]McDonald's, in Assisi. It just didn't seem right. What would St. Francis have thought? :eeeek:[/CENTER]

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[LEFT]Actually, St Francis was a bit of a high life globalist (of his time) and I think he would have just loved the drive through McDonalds in SM Angeli![/LEFT]

[LEFT]"Francesco era estroso ed elegante, primeggiava fra i giovani, amava le allegre brigate, spendendo con una certa prodigalità il denaro paterno, tanto da essere acclamato “rex iuvenum” (re dei conviti) che lo poneva alla direzione delle feste."

from [URL="http://www.santiebeati.it/dettaglio/21750"]San Francesco d'Assisi[/URL][/LEFT]

picking up on a point at the start of this thread as regards south north revolutionary action... i somehow doubt it had anything to do with the principle of preserving local culture when mc ds was burnt and had its windows broken... more to do with not paying the extra rent required... one of the reasons that its hard to start up anything in those areas without good local knowledge...

my other point would be...and i have no concerns over the presence of fast food chains is that italy has always had them...healthier... but fast...and that basically the sliced pizza take away shops...virtually always open... practically always located near schools and office locations...

outside of that... and a different experience entirely is the italian bar... if ever i am hungry outside mealtimes i have always found i can have as many cakes or sandwiches as i want... not much of a fan of the cake...but have always manged to get a sandwich made...

there is a great concern here about the problem of obesity in children and i think at this stage there are not enough burger stile fast food outlets to have caused the problem... more to do with the fact i would say that Italian eating habits are still based around life before the motor car was such a common element... now parents park their cars inside the school doors to pick up their kids... anyone with children here will know the battle of school pick ups...as mothers and fathers drive down the wrong way at one way signs...double triple or quadruple park...shout and scream or just stop in the middle of the road so that their child can walk less than a meter to get into the car...

high pasta and pizza intake was fine when jack or jill walked home or even to the bus stop... and maybe from there to the house... now the car has reduced all exercise... schools here rarely have activities although outside of schools there are many clubs of various activities from of course football and basketball... but these have to not only be paid for... but also driven to...

so if there is any problem world wide and even in italy its most probably the car as overweight people with overweight children use this to maintain their size and with all the stress generated from the angst of finding that parking space just in front of where ever they want to be its obvious that they will need to feed their face to reduce the tension...its a comfort thing... however i am not suggesting a car ban... or a food ban ...its just the world moves on and thinking and meals move on at different rates it will balance out ...i hope... look at how many people you see on bikes at the weekend....

[quote=adriatica;86428]...

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Thank you for reminding us of a historical fact. I actually remember that, when visiting Pompeii a few years back, a guide told us that a particular building was actually "the MacDonald's of those times", a place selling fast food for workers and travellers... Nothing is new, history repeats itself.

[quote=adriatica;86428]

Most small groceries will make a pannini for the cost of the materials.

It's pretty hard to get fat on pasta or even pizza. The calories aren't there even if you pile on lots of high fat sauce. Well maybe with lots of some sauces. An adult size plate of pasta doesn't have much more calories then a kids sweet snack. Stuff like that combined with the low activity levels are the problem. Most kids would be hard pressed to eat enough pasta to get fat. But a bunch of cakes? No problem.

I'm not a lover of the Big Mac - but they do have one saving grace - their toilets!

When motoring through France several years ago with the kids - you knew where to find a clean, working loo.

Altamura - the town without Mc Donalds;
McDonald’s opened in a piazza in the centre of Altamura, 45km south of Bari, in 2001 and after a five-year battle, the fast-food giant McDonald’s gave up in June 2006.

[url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1553904/posts]The baker who beat McDonald's[/url]

Hooray our local Mcds had to close .Lack of custom!!!This is in Devon.
I suspect this trend will continue thro Europe as the novelty wears off.
I've noticed eating in the local restuarants the younger chuildren are eating plates of chips and pizza rather than the traditional meal their parents are eating.in fact chips now seem to be playing quite a large part inon the menues of the cheaper places.

McDonald's is already in La Spezia and when I drive past (never been inside) its normally packed. I have never seen a McDonalds that was empty anywhere, so I guess there will only be more to come.

Any sign of Starbucks coming to town?

[quote=nigelaxis;86702]

Any sign of Starbucks coming to town?[/quote]

Bloody well hope not. I had a coffe in there once. I was confused by a bewildering choice of exotically flavoured coffees and the Cappucino I did get in the end wasn't very good. I really can't see the Italians going for second rate coffee. Whenever I travel with my clients to the UK or Germany, they never stop complaining about the bad coffee and as soon as they're back on Italian soil it's a bee line towards the first autogrill for a proper espresso.:yes:

There's hope yet. Got the results of the survey of the local school on their food preferences and the cooking of 'La Mamma' is still a definite favourite. 2/3 of all the kids said they would never or only occasionally eat at the new McD. Lots liked to cook themselves, although more so the girls and most were concerned about a healthy and balanced diet although also more promounced with the girls. Full results are published on my blog [url=http://pathtoselfsufficiency.blogspot.com/]Path to Self Sufficiency[/url] for those intersted.

i can see fast food in a limited sense, but please, for the love of god, don't let starbucks come to Italy. Your coffee is way way too good for them.