9179 Odd Building Regulations

We are currently in the process of agreeing the scope of works and costs with our geometra for renovation works on our house in Lunigiana, which are on the whole going well. However, there are a couple of items which the geometra insists are necessary due to italian building regulations.

The first is that we must replace our single glazed timber windows for new double glazed timber windows. He tells us that this is because we are putting in a new central heating system and so we must minimise heat loss. We were thinking about just refurishing the existing windows to save some money but this does not appear to be possible.

The second is that we must provide ceramic wall tiles to a height of 2m above floor level to all walls in the bathroom (not just the shower area). This is apparently because of hygiene standards.

We know that in the UK there are some odd building regulation requirements for refurbishment but the above two seem particarly strange and onerous. Has anyone else come across these before?

Category

Building/Renovation

There are some regulations regarding thermal loadings for heating, but unless these have recently changed then they only applied to new builds, or complete restorations. I would suggest you get more advice on that.

[quote=Geotherm;86368]There are some regulations regarding thermal loadings for heating, but unless these have recently changed then they only applied to new builds, or complete restorations. I would suggest you get more advice on that.[/quote]
We were told the same thing about replacing our windows by our geometra, he said that it'd cost more to replace the glass than it would to replace the whole window. We finally bit the bullet and rang round a number of glaziers in the yellow pages, finding a company near us in Tolentino who took the windows in the morning and brought back the same frames with double glazing that evening- the cost was €30 per metre of window- so roughly €30 a double set. A darn sight cheaper than replacing them.

The thermal regulations have changed, (November 2007), and if your geometra is saying that you are obliged to fit double glazing then that is his interpretation. You should query him on this, because as Geotherm has suggested, although the law is clear on new builds it is very much open to discussion when considering the extent of its application to restorations. It rather depends on how extensive your restoration is (in my opinion) and whether it involves changes of use. The suggestion from damiano sounds good, though you might find your geometra is unhappy even with this solution, because the regulations do cover technical issues of 'cold bridging' which older window frames probably couldn't manage to achieve.

As to the 2m high tiling - I have never heard of this one as a requirement (certainly not for a single family house - maybe for a hotel/b+b there could be some public health legislation which is relatively recent and which I haven't come across.) Are you sure he is suggesting it is 'required', rather than having just costed it into a computo metrico because in his opinion it is 'normal'?

Good point Charles about what is "normal" and also interpretation of rules. My plumber decided to add a little platform to the right of my shower tray because to him it was the right thing to do ..... eh no it wasn't.

I'm pretty sure you can get old frames fitted with double glazing units at Lunigiana Vetreria.

If you drive northwards from the centre of Aulla (towards Villafranca), before you get to the Conad store you turn right on the road that leads to the new railway station. A hundred yards after this turning you turn rght and you'll find the builders merchants Iozelli (that's a capital i at the beginning, not an l). Lunigiana Vetreria are within fifty yards of them. There's also a plumbing supplier and an electrical supplier nearby.

[quote=Charles Phillips;86395]The suggestion from damiano sounds good, though you might find your geometra is unhappy even with this solution, because the regulations do cover technical issues of 'cold bridging' which older window frames probably couldn't manage to achieve.[/quote]
Of course if your geometra is unhappy with the cheaper solution it would [I]definitely[/I] be for some technical reason and [I][B]most definitely[/B][/I] couldn't have anything to do the fact that this solution means he can't give a juicy contract to his window-making friends/relatives.

Sorry. Me getting all cynical again about one of the most respected and highly qualified professions in Italy. :eerr:

It is law to have double glazing , its a new thing that has been brought in, I belive to save energy.
Regarding your tiles I havent heard of having to have them to a certain height , in actual fact its more fashionable to have them lower at the moment. Hes pulled this out of his own stubborn head and probably for the simple reason being " that he thinks its better" or his brother owns the local Ceramica.

Have you got the law number, as have not seen this one yet? Am checking with our office as well.

[quote=Chardonnay;86459]It is law to have double glazing , its a new thing that has been brought in, I belive to save energy.
Regarding your tiles I havent heard of having to have them to a certain height , in actual fact its more fashionable to have them lower at the moment. Hes pulled this out of his own stubborn head and probably for the simple reason being " that he thinks its better" or his brother owns the local Ceramica.[/quote]

So - (apart from quite gratuitously insulting geometras), are you suggesting that because less tiling is fashionable it is of necessity legal? Please engage brain before operating typing finger.

Thanks everyone for your responses. It is interesting to hear about everyones experiences of strange italian building regs.

If someone knows of the reg which applies to double glazing it would be interesting to read it and find out exactly what is required. Our windows are very old with rickety agricultural glass so whether they would stand up to double glazing is unlikely but we shall certainly speak to Lunigiana Vetreria and double check as this could be a saving.

As to the tiles, I agree that this seems very odd and we shall question this again. I was cleaning all the grouting in our UK bathroom over the weekend (which the previous owners fully tiled) and I cant see how they can be more hygienic then painted walls which can easily be wiped down if painted with special bathroom paint.:veryconfused:

I see that a lot of forum members write about geometras. And as I have an Italian friend who never uses them, I asked him why. Here is his answer about geometras contra architects.

The law of 1929 that regulate the action of the geometra;
[url=http://www.geometri.vt.it/Documenti/regolamento%20professione%20Geometra.htm]regolamento professione Geometra[/url]

See Art. 16,

letter l) : .......non possono comunque implicare pericolo per la incolumità delle persone = geometra are able....... to planning, direction of agricoltural industrie building that however can't involve danger for the safety of the persons

letter m) : progetto, direzione e vigilanza di modeste costruzioni civili =planning, direction of modest civil building.
With regards to both letters , they are able to planning of agricultural and civil building, but that can't involve danger for the person and this mean, for the jurist, that they are able to planning and direction of building for the animals and for dead persons ( Tombs, graves)! And living persons have to keep far of such building!

Originally the geometra was able to measure plots . At least they was able improperly ( because our politicians too often use to close both eyes) to build very simply houses that need not pillar or beams of concrete. Geometra are not able to calculate it.

Geometra is educated until the age of 18-19 years!

Finally the politicians opened both eyes and....just this year the geometra's school will be closed. But: existing geometra can works....till they will die!

I know of a geometra that charged € 5000 + VAT to plan a swimming pool. My architect charges € 1000 for the same works.

And earlier I trusted a geometra for some planning of an office. His works was returned five times from the authorities. I then engaged an architect and his works was approwed first time. And the cost was less!!

[quote=AllanMason;86436]Of course if your geometra is unhappy with the cheaper solution it would [I]definitely[/I] be for some technical reason and [I][B]most definitely[/B][/I] couldn't have anything to do the fact that this solution means he can't give a juicy contract to his window-making friends/relatives.

Sorry. Me getting all cynical again about one of the most respected and highly qualified professions in Italy. :eerr:

Al[/quote]

Now I can relate to this - and how!

I wanted upvc, wood effect, [I]maintenance free[/I] windows for my place. 3 french doors (7ftx4ft), 4 normal (5ftx4ft), 5 for mansarda (3ftx2ft) plus a reinforced (blindata) double width front door.

Well discussing this with my geometra he explained that 'i[I]n my area[/I]' upvc widows were not permitted (though I seem to remember that he said 'frowned upon'). It seemed strange - but hey... this [U]IS[/U] Italy, land of the irrational (made up on the spot?) bye-laws. I took the bait and asked him to get me three quotes for wood windows - which he did...but of course they were somewhat 'weighted' towards one particular firm He explained that it was a small firm right in my own village and that I could see examples of his work at both his workshop and on many houses in the village. Well the price - though much higher than upvc - was competitive and his work was very good.. So he got the job.

Now some 18 months [I][U]after [/U][/I]the work was finished I found out, purely by accident, that my carpenter was in fact a [U]first cousin of my geometra[/U]! Such a connection never crossed my mind as I knew the geometra, and his parents, lived in a town halfway down the lake - so, silly Brit that I am, I [I]assumed[/I] that was where his whole family came from! Yeah - right!

[B]NO - WRONG![/B] :no:

Well you live and learn.

livar

a good point i think but in all honesty like most things in Italy there is some confusion with the whole profession...

historically they were pretty much of that ilk and basically sorted disputes between neighbours over boundaries...it has however moved on and laws in Italy rarely keep up with life..

the other point is that they can do higher level courses which qualify them almost to the same degree as an architect... certainly in technical expertise in any case

however a bit like many professions here they tend to use their position and qualifications to get in with either local or national politics... a studio for whatever...from law to buildings allows them to first get a foot into comune political life and then onto provincial..regional and national... all jobs with good pensions and salaries but more importantly power to do things and to allocate funds to friends... in general these are the worst ones to get involved with because their agendas are far outside your building work... again this is a generalisation but one i have found to be not far from reality

so i would rarely tar them all with the same brush... i have seen good value work from some and almost criminal extortion by others... but then again i have seen this with architects too...

despite all our debates on here there seems to be no easy solution... care and common sense i guess... questioning as in the start of this thread...and see what gets thrown up...but even the answers here are not definitive...

takes bathrooms as a case in point ... apart from tiles ... and there is a horror here about not tiling all the wall... the infamous bidet... many non europeans especially do not see the need for this... yet you try and get them to build a bathroom without capped tubes to where one should be...and the space left between sink and toilet for it... not because there is a law it just seems they find it hard to think in any other way... its a minor point but there are and always will be difficulties with very fixed thinking here...

my evaluation is that there is no one living here that would sensibly not have double glazing.... if there is a case for changing windows... the thin glass of old is even worse than modern day single glazing... always put in the best you can afford both for summer cooling and winter cold protection...

tiles...well... just buy the tiles... put a mark on the wall and tell the builder to stop when he arrives at that point sticking on the tiles...

you have most probably already got a contract with this geometra... even if you have not signed anything... just make it clear with him you are happy to be guided and informed but decisions will be made by you... its important to get this right from the start...

Following Livarandsofie's post, this is an interesting article to read:

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2003/07/28/pital27.xml]The Italian job - Telegraph[/url]

A geometra is basically a building surveyor educated at a technical college between the ages of 14 to 19. In other countries, the equivalent diploma would require 2-3 years of university. In many places it is considered as a first step towards the full architect's degree. But just a first step. The current Italian qualification seems to be below that level. We are very happy with the work that our geometra is doing for us in Italy, but the all the ideas, plans and specifications come from my husband who is a retired architect... so we have the best of both worlds.

[quote=Charles Phillips;86471]So - (apart from quite gratuitously insulting geometras), are you suggesting that because less tiling is fashionable it is of necessity legal? Please engage brain before operating typing finger.[/quote]
And you need to learn to read a little better . I remarked on the Geometra in question and did not generalise .

[quote=livarandsofie;86496]The law of 1929 that regulate the action of the geometra;
See Art. 16,

l) progetto, direzione, sorveglianza e liquidazione di costruzioni rurali e di edifici per uso d'industrie agricole, di limitata importanza, di struttura ordinaria, comprese piccole costruzioni accessorie in cemento armato che non richiedono particolari operazioni di calcolo e che per le loro destinazione non possono comunque implicare pericolo per la incolumità delle persone; nonché di piccole opere
inerenti alle aziende agrarie, come strade vicinali, senza rilevanti opere d'arte, lavori d'irrigazione e di bonifica, provvista di acque per le stesse aziende e reparto della spesa per opere consorziali relative,esclusa, comunque, la redazione di progetti generali di bonifica idraulica ed agraria e relativa direzione;

m)progetto, direzione e vigilanza di modeste costruzioni civili

These are the 2 letters you quote, i have not the english knowledge to translate it correctly...by the way, i totally disagree with you because geometras (I'm an italian Geometra) can plan and direct "small buildings" civil and rural made with "simple" structure also in renforced concrete that need for "simple" calculation skills.
So if you read it correctly you can't tell what you wrote...

[quote=livarandsofie;86496]
Originally the geometra was able to measure plots . At least they was able improperly ( because our politicians too often use to close both eyes) to build very simply houses that need not pillar or beams of concrete. Geometra are not able to calculate it.[/quote]
they was able IMPROPERLY?!?!!? why??? where u read it?!?!
[quote=livarandsofie;86496]
Geometra is educated until the age of 18-19 years! [/quote]
after that we have to take a 2 years intership in an almost 10 years old Firm and at the end we have to overcome a state examination(in Bologna every year near 50% are rejected)that test our working skill in all what YOU wrote we can't do....why Italy ask a geometra to overcome this examination if he couldn't do this job?!?!

[quote=livarandsofie;86496]
Finally the politicians opened both eyes and....just this year the geometra's school will be closed. But: existing geometra can works....till they will die![/quote]
again....where have you read it? simply not true

[quote=livarandsofie;86496]
I know of a geometra that charged € 5000 + VAT to plan a swimming pool. My architect charges € 1000 for the same works. And earlier I trusted a geometra for some planning of an office. His works was returned five times from the authorities. I then engaged an architect and his works was approwed first time. And the cost was less[/quote]

there are honest, thieves , good and bad professionals in every cathegory

[quote=ldb;86630]l)....

there are honest, thieves , good and bad professionals in every cathegory[/quote]

I totally agree.:yes:

[quote=Gala Placidia;86502]Following Livarandsofie's post, this is an interesting article to read:

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2003/07/28/pital27.xml]The Italian job - Telegraph[/url]

I read Gala's interesting link and then went on to read the other articles from the Telegraph that were listed and guess what...? One of the firms based in both Italy and England mentioned, are to be avoided, unless you are indeed polli da spennare!

Gosh, Noble! That means that those poor ladies where in a trap from the very start! Perhaps it is a good thing for potential buyers to read that article and get a warning of what may happen. There are lots of crooks out there, or, as the Tuscans would say:

"Un farabutto tu lo trovi dappertutto"

i think, as in all profession, you must work with somebody you can trust. We know good geometras, who not only do good jobs but also try to make you same money not spend more! Workmen in Italy are used to do things a certain ways and sometimes they find the things British people want very strange. They'll try to convince you that's not the "right" and "nice" way to do it, but at the end of the day, as long as you follow the health and safety regulations, you must put your foot down and stick with want you like.
To come back on the windows, when you renovate a building, if you don't touch something you can keep the old one but as soon as you decide to replace, maintain, repair it then you have to follow the last regulations (ei: if you are doing a new roof you must put a safety hook on it but you are not expexted to do it until you are keeping your old roof). Might be the case with your windows...:smile:

There are indeed new regulation on thermal standards, you hav eto provide an allegato eneregito ambientale, proving that you are improoving the thermal performance of your house. The new regulations do not state that you have to change your windows to double glazed ones, but your geometra is right in saying that if you had to install radiators without doing so, you would end up having too big of heat loss through your existing windows, therefore having huge bills. So, although it is not stated by the law, it would be a good idea to follow your geometr's advice. I am in the process of finishing a house renovation and I did change the windows.
[url=http://www.latoca.co.uk/casa%20Metti.html]Casa Metti[/url]

it is considered best practise in Italy to tile up to 2m high, but I am not aware of any building regulation as such stating this rule.

Hope this helps (I would still stick with your geometra's advice- best practise and not building regs)

Paola

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Paola - I really like your website; it is very interesting to see other peoples renovations going on. I especially like the tiles - are they cotto?

Our geometra came back to us about the tiles and he quoted the following:

The Regulations Hygiene of the Municipality of Filattiera (art. 183 codicil 7) recite: “[I]The floor must be of easy washable smooth impermeable material; the walls covered of impermeable material till the height of mt. 2.00[/I]”.

So for anyone that was interested, this is what he was refering to.

Well, impermeable simply means waterproof, so there is no requirement to tile: there are specialist bathroom paints which look like matt emulsion, (and are breathable, unlike a vinyl emulsion), but since you cannot tell these specialist paints from ordinary tempera, and ordinary tempera stands up perfectly well in most bathroom locations you could get away with that!

the tiles are not real coot, they are ceramic tiles: [url=http://www.panaria.it/prd/Collection.aspx?CollectionId=34#a]PANARIA CERAMICA - Collezione[/url]
the price is mid range, they have a very good variation in texture.
Why do you have a problem with tiling up to two meters? It usually does not make a big difference in price, unless you have very expensive tiles...

Paola

I think it is more personal preference. I prefer not to see tiles everywhere in a bathroom, but I know that many bathrooms in Italy (and in the UK) all of the floors and walls are tiled and many people like this.

Also at home in the UK I have had two different bathrooms, one which was tiled and the other painted in special waterproof paint (as Charles mentions) and I personally found it easier to wipe the painted surface then scrub the grout on the tiled surface. I am sure other people have different preferences.

I just thought it odd that there didn't seem to be the option of painting walls rather then tiling here.

Your floor tiles look very realistic. Thanks for the link.

9179 Odd Building Regulations

Double glazing

Who to trust?