9295 Would You Buy An Italian Property Today?

With the current turmoil "Would you still buy a home in Italy today?"

Personally.....No. My reasons:
1) Euro rate
2) I have seen the housing market weaken in my local area (although quite silently) and I don't beleive that Italy and Europe will remain unscathed.

My gamble would be to opt for renting over the next 12 months and see how the cookie crumbles

Category

General chat about Italy

Yes but we'd have to buy a much smaller property. We could now only afford to restore one house and not two. The second provides income in the season to cover utility bills. 2008 Smaller house cheaper to restore and run. Would add that we had not realised how very cold Umbria can be in winter so would now consider Liguria but always Italy, nowhere else.

I think the euro rate is a pain for buyers, but maybe its a dead cat bounce, it will go back up, like shares, if you sit and wait most of the time they climb back up.
I saw Soros being qouted here today, I once heard him say that the only person to make money is the first one that buys,as he has proved in the past.

The house market, ummm, I dont think that Italy will get hit as badly as the yUK, main reason Family owned houses rather then Bank owned,,,,,,,talking to people in there 30s both here and and in the yUK, they both say pretty much the same thing, they cant afford a mortgage.....the difference here of course is that the Banks wont let them have one either, so this should ( and does IMHO ) create a much more stable market.

There are still bargains to be rooted out here, if you put in the time .

So, would I buy now..... yes, as a home, not maybe as an investment.

if you mean "would I start looking for a house in Italy today" then I'd say no, unless you were sitting on a heap of cash & money was no object. Assuming your prime motivation was to buy a long term holiday home or permanent residence in Italy, I'd say that you should wait for another 3-6 months to see whether there is any significant price fall in Italy due to the credit crunch etc. Assuming you are looking for a "Brit friendly" place, there will undoubtedly be more supply & less demand as the UK catches cold from America's latest sneeze, whether or not the core Italian market is affected.

if on the other hand you have already fallen in love with a property then I'd say yes, but prepare to dig in and use the £/€ and the market turmoil to put the fear of god in the vendor and milk every last cent of discount you can out of the deal - on the basis of what's about to happen (who knows, it might not come to pass, or at least not as bad as some foretell).

if you are buying with one eye on investment or capital growth, my own gut feel is that regardless of the property markets, the £ will languish at or near its current levels for a long time and may never recover substantially before its eventual entry to the €. An eventual recovery of the $ (almost inevitible) will only make that scenario more likely. Now if you believe that, you either walk away from European property investment entirely - because it will cost you an arm and a leg at the £/€ rate, and there are much safer investments for your £ out there in the UK - or, you decide that the quicker you get a large, € denominated asset like a house, the more insulated you'll be when the change over to the € finally happens. That's a judgement call, personally I'd go with the latter option on the assumption that you have a fair slice of capital to sink into the investment and aren't financing it on equity/debt.

[quote=nigelaxis;87345]With the current turmoil "Would you still buy a home in Italy today?"[/quote]
Yes, I would still buy a house in Italy today. What's more, I would still buy the house I [I]did[/I] buy in Italy today.

The putative monetary value of the building I live in has always been [I]much[/I] less important to me than the less tangible pleasures (and problems) of my home.

Italy is a far shot from paradise but, on balance, it remains a joy to live there. I still have moments when I can't believe how fortunate I am to live where I do. As for the market value of our farm, I hope that neither I, my partner or our currently infant daughter are ever forced to find out what that number is.

lovely sentiments Allan, but the devils advocate in me would ask [B][I]could[/I][/B] you still buy it (at the current exchange rates) without bankrupting youself if purchasing today?

For the sake of argument, let's assume the answer is either "no" or "not sure". Then would you
- sit & wait in the hope that the £ recovers and/or € property prices fall
- plunge in regardless, left dependant on currency/interest rate fluctuation for survival
- abandon your dream house and downsize your ambitions to something affordable
- or just walk away?

I would buy property again today, for all the same reasons Allan has stated, despite the continuing devaluation of my $ vs. Euro, we didn't purchase as an investment in property, but rather as an investment in the next phase (10+ years) of our lives . . . though I think we were smart to simply pay cash for our house(s), to buy them in habitable condition, and to avoid any leverage. I think many people have been seduced by the idea that "real estate always appreciates", i.e., what's happening in some property markets in the US/UK now -- Regardless of market prices, I'm going to let my eventual heirs sort out how & when, or even IF to ever sell our place in Italy.

[quote=pigro;87352]lovely sentiments Allan, but the devils advocate in me would ask [B][I]could[/I][/B] you still buy it (at the current exchange rates) without bankrupting youself if purchasing today?

I bought our Italian home with with a lump sum I'd received unexpectedly plus the proceeds from selling my previous home in Scotland. My circumstances were (fortunately) highly unusual and so I don't think there's much I can say about my pre-Italian finances which might possibly be of any help to anyone else considering a similar move.

However, I [I]could[/I] have managed the purchase if the exchange rate was then (Feb-Sept 2006) what it is now and, in retrospect, it's clear that I was fortunate in when I happened to need to buy a large pile of Euros. That was just dumb luck, but it was also the case that I was terrified of blowing my one shot at financial security for the rest of my life, so I went into the Italian property market determined to look only at houses which cost less than half of the amount in my piggy bank. Again, I was very fortunate in that my resources were such that even that restriction meant I was not limited to looking only at ruins. I am, however, willing to take some credit for being sensible enough to resist all temptations to push the boundaries and consider, say, just [I]small[/I] places in Tuscany, houses with just a [I]tiny[/I] swimming pool and so on.

Buying a place in Italy was not an impulse purchase: it had been considered long before I received the lump sum I mentioned above. But then the sort of place that was on the cards would have been one of those tumbledown farmhouses and its renovation was expected to be measured in decades and buckets of sweat due to shortage of cash. I think it's very possible I'd still be in Italy (at least some of the time) if that plan had been carried through in today's financial climate, but I'm certain the property would have been a lot smaller than where we live today. I'm also sure that in those circumstances I'd be feeling very worried and pressured about what's going to happen in the next few months and years.

However, I'm also certain that while finances would be tighter due to the current exchange rate, the choices made would have been downscaled enough in a boringly sensible way for us to (not yet) be in such a terribly overstretched position that we couldn't get some pleasure from an al fresco meal whilst sitting amongst the rubble at the end of a sweaty day.

In short: I'd choose the downsizing option. It seems to me pointless to try to second-guess the world economy, UK house prices and future £-€ exchange rates, but one thing that [I]is[/I] certain is that none of us are here forever. I think it's far healthier to spend our time in pursuit of a dream, even if unpleasant fiscal realities mean it's at the converted Italian pigsty rather than the Taschen Tuscan villa end of the housing market.

Yes.

From the buyers viewpoint I'm thrilled prices are off.
I'm no less thrilled some other buyers are having trouble buying.

I'd take out an Italian Euro 15-20 year fixed mortgage. Knowing full well that currency rates would swing during that period. That's the main thing I'd change.

I'm actually hoping things stay like this or WORSE for a few more years. I'd planned to look for a second place in 2010. With my luck things will be better :wideeyed:

[quote=Noble;87347]Yes but we'd have to buy a much smaller property. We could now only afford to restore one house and not two. The second provides income in the season to cover utility bills. 2008 Smaller house cheaper to restore and run. Would add that we had not realised how very cold Umbria can be in winter so would now consider Liguria but always Italy, nowhere else.[/quote]

Not wanting to take this off topic. You do need to know Liguria can be cold in winter too - sometimes taking everyone by surprise. The climate no longer seems as reliable as in the past. Some places are warmer than others and it can be 4 or 5 degrees colder in the primi collini than on the coast and perhaps colder even further inland. Property is substantially more expensive in the coastal towns than the entroterra; so what you don't pay in property price you will pay in winter heating. So if you do look in Liguria try to get local historic temperatures rather than general ones and think about the aspect of the house.

i would say people in their thirties here would be hard put to get a mortgage because they are still living at home with no job... being supported by parents... its not until 35 that they leave home ...and for Italians its quite easy to get a mortgage if your parents or grandparents guarantee it... in fact easier most probably than the UK...its just not easy for non italians...

house prices where they have inflated... and that generally in the cities are due to drop a couple of percentage points but the italian market is not really one that rises or drops dramatically ... what has dropped off in a large way is sales...people are just staying put... but unlike the UK say... the only other market i know... people have no urgency to move either downwards or upwards...so property tends to stay on estate agents lists...longer... because they will not drop the price... they have no need to ...

so i guess there will be no cries of sadness over this on this forum but the only sector really suffering here is the estate agent... and that's at a time when some of the big franchising chains have increased there number of outlets ten fold or so in the last few years...

what held good yesterday still holds good today... if you choose the area, the property and condition and you have the spare money then you are most probably not going to loose anything... nobody ...despite the emotional statements likes to buy ...put money in and then find that its worth half of what they paid...

if i had to borrow money to be able to buy here i wouldn't... but i wouldn't have done it before either... i would also never take a mortgage based on foreign exchange or interest rates outside my main country of work residence... this is speculation beyond bricks and mortar and is most probably mis sold more than houses...

as nigel has been here quite a while now and from his question seems to be renting... i would say in reply to his statement/question that there is never a good or bad time to do things... if you are a lucky type of person they always seem to work out...whenever you take the jump....

nobles statements i find hold true... we are getting many more enquiries and viewing now on those properties that fall below e100k or just about the 100k mark... and not ruins... her other words on climate ring true too... nobody seems to take into account that italy from top to toe is a cold country in winter ... for instance two cities in italy were at zero this morning... and its spring... and i see from the weather that there is more snow due...

cassini also makes some good points on climate which hold true throughout all italian regions to my mind... we have one of the coldest provinces in Italy the other side of the mountain to us... as the crow flies maybe just 20 - 30 km ... but it can be up to ten to fifteen degrees colder in the winter and that much hotter in the summer

this so called crisis might not be a bad thing to make people think more carefully on size of house and condition ... and area... to have to spend their pound a bit more carefully ... with a bit more sense and thought attached to the whole process

we could always just pool all our remaining £/€/$ and buy yuan, which dropped below the strategic value of 7 per $ last night. it's now unshackled from the $ and therefore is starting to find its true level.

Then put that on deposit in the Bank of China - inflation there is ~9% due to the phenomenal growth, and the bank interest is therefore bound to be fairly tasty.

Let the capital compound upward while we survey the property market and then (thanks to the fake commies who now let us westerners buy private property there) snap up some prime property in downtown Shanghai.

We wait a few months and then cash in after we double our money (not worth the bother of renting to tenants meantime, it won't take that long to double and buy to let is soooo last year, dahling!).

By then, our now enormous wad of yuan will have doubled in value against our own feeble currencies ... so we can all buy one of Al's top end Tuscan mansions (by now being flogged to all-comers "cheap as chips") out of spare change & convert the rest back into € for pocket money. Just watch out for the new neighbours though, you'll have Boris the oligarch on one side and a triad holiday home on the other, and Chiantishire may by then be better known as Chian-ti province.

No? What do you mean China is too risky? Political instability? but they are a totalitarian regime, they ain't going anywhere, it's safe as houses!! ... currency controls you say? relax! the black market is normal practice for that kind of deal ...

send me your euros (c/o Pigros Pyramid Property Purchases ltd.) we can't lose, I tells ye!!

[quote=adriatica;87360]
i would also never take a mortgage based on foreign exchange or interest rates outside my main country of work residence... this is speculation beyond bricks and mortar and is most probably mis sold more than houses...
[/quote]

Unless you think exchange rates are going to average worse then today why would you do that? Stick your money under a mattress. Every time exchange rates are acceptable convert it to Euros and use it to pay your expenses. I'm sure most can figure out better options then the mattress to. Interest rates are still fairly low.

The moment you decide to do anything outside of your home country you're taking currency risk. Political risk. By spreading out the payments via a mortgage you're cutting your currency risk. In any one month you'll have less risk then single big lump buys.

[quote=pigro;87361]we could always just pool all our remaining £/€/$ and buy yuan, which dropped below the strategic value of 7 per $ last night. it's now unshackled from the $ and therefore is starting to find its true level.
[/quote]

:frown: Months back a company I want to buy a camera from starting making noises they would have to hike the price to offset the currency moves. Things have moved faster then they were worried about to. :madd: By the time time I've saved the old cost the new one will be far more. :eeeek:

Despite some sensible posts from adriatica and pigro, the underlying belief behind a lot of the comments is that the Euro will, at some time in the future, weaken against the US$ and the £. That, to my mind is the bet you are taking if the exchange rate is influencing whether or not you purchase.

As an aside, are any of the US owners of prime Tuscan Mansions bought a few years ago reconverting their asked selling price back into US$? I doubt it! If they did, they might even find they have made loadsabucks in having disposed of a Euro asset bought with an inflated dollar currency if they ask the 'right' price.

I so agree with Mathematician on this subject. We have just bought in November and as an investment for our enjoyment and future over the next ten years. We will leave the sorting out of the property to our children. They may keep the house or sell whenever they wish in the distant future!

[quote=Mathematician;87353]I would buy property again today, for all the same reasons Allan has stated, despite the continuing devaluation of my $ vs. Euro, we didn't purchase as an investment in property, but rather as an investment in the next phase (10+ years) of our lives . . . though I think we were smart to simply pay cash for our house(s), to buy them in habitable condition, and to avoid any leverage. I think many people have been seduced by the idea that "real estate always appreciates", i.e., what's happening in some property markets in the US/UK now -- Regardless of market prices, I'm going to let my eventual heirs sort out how & when, or even IF to ever sell our place in Italy.[/quote]

I agree too. Our holiday house was very cheap anyway(but habitable) and I think of it as a wonderful adventure that I hope will carry on until I die. We have only had it 3 years but already the experiences we have had and the Italian friends we have made have given us a wealth of life enhancement that is worth far more than money. We already have a meagre budget but luckily the view from our terrace, the woods and fields lit up by magical swarms of fireflies, the breathtaking scenery and the kindness and warmth of our Italian neighbours are all free. We feel truly blessed to have our "life through the looking glass", especially as we are not at all rich and chose to use a small legacy to buy a lifelong adventure.

[quote=AllanMason;87351]Yes, I would still buy a house in Italy today. What's more, I would still buy the house I [I]did[/I] buy in Italy today.

The putative monetary value of the building I live in has always been [I]much[/I] less important to me than the less tangible pleasures (and problems) of my home.

Al[/quote]

Allan, I so agree and if it was now that we wanted to move to Italy, I don't think the exchange rate would necessarily deter us, we'd just bite the bullet and cough up.
It is a joy to live here, if we were free to move we wouldn't want to delay moving here. Like you, we can't believe how fortunate we are either. We also both hope to be carried out of this house in a box. (Ideally - though realistically very unlikely - at the precise same time!) V

Living in Norway, it is strange to see this discussion. It gives me a perspective on that not everybody is as lucky as us Norwegian consumers, or unlucky as Norwegian exporters. Today one € cost NOK 7,94 One year ago the rate was 8,09. (down 1,85%) As for £; today 9,92, one year ago 11,91. (down 16,7%) USD down from 6,03 to 5,03 (16,6%) Cheaper and cheaper to buy abroad for us Norwegians.
However, the export industry is the looser, Norwegian products getting more expensive to sell abroad.

I'm with Alma on this one. If you want to live in Italy, life's too short to wait around waiting for the next currency uplift, get on with it and enjoy the experience.

[quote=livarandsofie;87465]Living in Norway, it is strange to see this discussion. It gives me a perspective on that not everybody is as lucky as us Norwegian consumers, or unlucky as Norwegian exporters. Today one € cost NOK 7,94 One year ago the rate was 8,09. (down 1,85%) As for £; today 9,92, one year ago 11,91. (down 16,7%) USD down from 6,03 to 5,03 (16,6%) Cheaper and cheaper to buy abroad for us Norwegians.
However, the export industry is the looser, Norwegian products getting more expensive to sell abroad.[/quote]
Not sure if this works, but we have an Italian friend, lives in UK. He buys US dollars @2 to the pound, takes them to Italy and buys Euros with them, he reckons on getting about 20 cents more on the deal than if he bought Euro's in the UK.

Any body else played around like this?

And in answer to the original question.. yes.

Andy

I am still in New York having a great time, but I had a quick look at this thread which I had missed, and I loved it. Here are my thoughts on the topic:
Nobody really knows what is going to happen with the currencies; however, I would still buy if I would find an interesting place and the price was right. Possibly there are quite a few bargains out there at the moment. It is a good investment... long term, of course.

[quote=redslk;87542]Not sure if this works, but we have an Italian friend, lives in UK. He buys US dollars @2 to the pound, takes them to Italy and buys Euros with them, he reckons on getting about 20 cents more on the deal than if he bought Euro's in the UK.
[/quote]

Was he telling you this by satelite phone from his private island? if it is true, he should be sitting on a huge pile of cash by now as he's discovered a very neat exploit in the international currency market. Fortunes are made & lost on a couple of cents spread never mind 20 ...

There may be some dumb institution out there that's offering a market-busting rate on the £/€ but I can't see how or why!

Is it maybe that he' just doing this with small sums (i.e. a few hundred quid) and while the rates are as he says, there are commission charges which skew the actual value of the transactions? Or maybe the UK places he's using are all just poor value high street types and he's slightly more savvy about where he does his trades in Italy?

Would be interesting if you could post the actual trades, charges & institutions involved - I for one would have no problem copying him if he's getting 20 cents more per euro than I could get directly from a UK institution ...

Hi Equestrian

I feel much the same as you. We bought our apartment as a retirement home because we loved Italy; not as an investment. My daughters can wory about it's value, although I hope in time they will love it as much as I do. In retrospect I think we would have to downsize with the fluctuations in exchange rate. We went way over our intended budget because we liked the place so much. It was a new build apartment and I seriously underestimated how much we would need to spend to sell my flat in the UK, move our furniture out to Italy, buy new furniture, fit a new kitchen, fit new bedrooms etc. However, I think we were really lucky because the exchange rate was good and we sold in the UK before the house prices there really started to fall.

This is a very interesting thread. My husband and I will be making the move to London in March of 2009 in order to work and be close to Italy while we look for our new home!! My only worry is about getting money from a bank in the Uk in order to buy our home in Italy. We aren't too worry about money due to the type of work my husband does and he will continue to work in the UK will living in Italy, but I do worry how the bank will look at his ..dodgy or no?
Anyone else with this type of experience?

At least this thread has turned out to be interesting reading! My original post was from an economic point of view. I believe that exchange rates will improve and expect that Italian homes may be more negotiable during the approaching months.

One of the best methods to buy now and cover yourself against exchange rate changes is to have a euro mortgage. If the buyer then negotiates/buys well then they may have 'financially' still done well, regardless of the market.

The aspect that has arisen in this thread is more important then £......its about lifestyle, enjoying your life. On that note I say "get to Italy as fast as you can". I am already on Italian soil and having a good time too. Life is certainly too short to wait to start living.

For those wanting to move to Italy I would say come NOW and rent first. Its much easier to find the right place at the right price if you are already here.......and it means you can start enjoying Italy much sooner. Summer is arriving too!

So, I will answer my question again. Would I buy an Italian property today?
I would personally move to italy 'now' and rent while doing my property search. I would start looking and understanding the market and if I find the right house at a suitable price I would buy and use a Euro mortgage. I would not worry about the dead money of renting as I would expect to get that back from saving on the cost of the house, improvements in exchange rates and the quality of life I would have while looking.

If I was looking at investment property, the answer is a definite 'No'. For this I would be investigating America and the UK. As George Soros stated 'The first one to buy makes the most money'.

[quote=remyholic;87622]This is a very interesting thread. My husband and I will be making the move to London in March of 2009 in order to work and be close to Italy while we look for our new home!! My only worry is about getting money from a bank in the Uk in order to buy our home in Italy. We aren't too worry about money due to the type of work my husband does and he will continue to work in the UK will living in Italy, but I do worry how the bank will look at his ..dodgy or no?
Anyone else with this type of experience?[/quote]

Hi,
When you get to the UK it may be a good idea to start banking with Barclays. They are both in the UK and Italy and it might make it easier for opening Italian bank account etc.

Barclays also have a Euros account in the UK, but its pretty useless as it only offers a chequebook. No card or any sort when I last checked. Go straight for an Italian Euros account and keep life simple.

However, I would not use a UK bank for the currency purchase as they don't offer the best rates. I generally use smartcurrencyexchange.com for currency transaction. They will also allow you to buy from £3,000 upwards at better then bank rates, so you can make smaller transfers for costs of living etc.

For working in the UK/living in Italy. If your husband is in Italy for over 180 days in a year he will be an Italian tax payer.

I hope these comments help. Do you know where you plan to live in Italy?

Nigel, I think Remyholic's question was really about getting a UK mortgage to fund an Italian house purchase (rather than finding a convenient UK bank to deal with occasional funds transfers and day to day current account banking needs)?

Remy - as you'll be aware, the UK banking sector has its knickers in a knot right now, with banks scared to lend money to each other never mind to the (wo)man in the street.

Lending criteria have therefore become much more strict (lower multiples of salary; higher interest rates; shorter terms and lower Loan to value ratio) - and that's just for normal UK property purchases; Getting a mortgage from a UK bank to fund a purchase of a foreign home was always trickier.

If your joint income is sufficiently large/stable and you can put down significant equity to keep the LTV low, you'll always find someone who'll lend you money to buy property, but you need to do some careful research on specialist UK providers of finance specifically for foreign house purchase.

The high street banks generally don't want to know about that kind of lending, particularly if you won't be owning a UK house to act as security and won't even be resident in the UK once you take out the mortgage - it's just too far from their comfort zone.

Your post didn't explain whether you actually have (or will buy) property in London. That may change things somewhat, particularly if you are buying it outright from the sale of property from your previous home country. It also doesn't clarify whether your husbands work will be carried out physically in the UK (commuting) or over the internet etc. form italy?

Anyway, while I disagree with nigelAxis in general about a Euro mortgage being a wise idea for a UK salaried person in the current climate, it is probably the best route for you if you won't have a UK property to act as security (as in its absence, any UK lender will hit you with a big premium in the interest rate they offer to cover the increased risk as they see it). You should research UK providers of Euro Mortgages and compare with direct mortgages in Italy from a European bank.

I'd start that research NOW, so that you don't arrive in the UK unprepared. The currency & property markets are both in for a rocky ride so the sooner you agree a lending facility the better placed you'll be to act when required.

We have friends who took a home equity line of credit against their (paid up) home in the States to purchase property in Italy about 5 years ago -- it has turned out quite well for them, no Italian mortgages to negotiate, paid cash & negotiated a good purchase price, and the interest rates on their HELOC have gone down as the euro value has gone up against the dollar. Admittedly, they didn't plan it this way, but so far it has worked out well, and the US bank's only risk is based on a US property. Does this work in the UK as well?

yes, thats exactly what I did 4 years ago, though we refer to it as a "remortgage" on the home property.

[quote=pigro;87350]if you mean " Assuming you are looking for a "Brit friendly" place, there will undoubtedly be more supply & less demand as the UK catches cold from America's latest sneeze, whether or not the core Italian market is affected.[/quote]

From what I have seen, American demand for properties fell last spring and UK demand fell during the winter. German and Dutch demand doesn't seem to have been affected in the same way and there are a whole load of new markets opening up, particularly Scandinavian, Russian etc etc.

I don't think prices of "brit friendly places" will drop significantly as it is really difficult to explain to an eighty year old farmer global economics. I have tried! If they understand they then think it is best to keep their famhouse as it makes a safer investment.

Jo Williams

[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url]

consder those many Btrits & Americans who bought Italian property - particularly (but not exclusively) holiday homes - while their currencies were riding high and are now struggling to afford the debt servicing and running costs.

Some proportion of these owners will neeed to sell, others will want to sell. Either way, that will increase availabllity of the kind of property which they tended to buy, and which I referred to as "Brit Friendly" as shorthand.

[quote=pigro;87794]consder those many Btrits & Americans who bought Italian property - particularly (but not exclusively) holiday homes - while their currencies were riding high and are now struggling to afford the debt servicing and running costs.

I think it will depend on how long the US and UK problems continue (hopefully not long as I need to sell a house in Wales in order to restore the house I bought in December.........I think I have already lost the money for my central heating and electrics.....no problem: I like candles and hot water bottles!. Luckily I can put off the restoration for as long as necessary and have no regrets about buying as the house is perfect for my needs(ie small and cheap). So, that is one property that will not be going back on the market-hopefully!).

Most expats have restored, or are restoring, their properties and you are of course right, there could be some bargains to be had here at the expense of the poor souls who have suddenly found themselves in difficulty. I just don't know how many of them there are and whether that in itself is enough to rock the market here. We'll see. Certainly in Le Marche it would do no harm to see prices knocked back a bit (unless of course you are a seller!).

As always it will be an important lesson: think hard before borrowing to buy a holiday home and make sure that you have a realistic view of the costs of restoration and maintenance. Also anyone thinking about buying a farmhouse and creating apartments to let needs to take a realistic view of the expected income, especially (but not exclusively) in view of the current economic problems. At the end of the day, a holiday home is a luxury, buy what you can afford!!

Jo
[url=http://www.southernlemarche.com]LE MARCHE[/url]

[quote=tennaval;87816]Actually I disagree thats its all woe for the seller. For transactions between Brits, as many are, this is an ideal time not only for the British buyer to grab a bargain with cash but the British seller who needs to sell too.
Firstly, forget the Euro and arrange to pay in Sterling, that will avoid the dismal exchange rate. The buyer gets a bargain price for an already restored Italian farmhouse and the seller clinches the sale by reducing the price knowing full well they can return to UK with a bundle of lovely cash and make up their loss in a market widely predicted to fall by at least 20%................[/quote]

Assuming of course that they are free to use that "bundle of lovely cash" (or whatever is left after CGT) to buy property in the UK rather than say for saving a failing business, paying for a divorce, or for medical treatment etc etc. Sorry, but so far they are the reasons that I have heard from expats wishing to sell their restored properties.

Buying an investment property out here and making a profit isn't easy. If a seller is put into the position that he HAS to sell, and sell quickly, then I really do not see him coming out smiling. The buyer on the other hand will be laughing!!

It will be interesting to see what happens to the market during the remainder of the year.

[quote=nigelaxis;87642]Hi,
When you get to the UK it may be a good idea to start banking with Barclays. They are both in the UK and Italy and it might make it easier for opening Italian bank account etc.

For working in the UK/living in Italy. If your husband is in Italy for over 180 days in a year he will be an Italian tax payer.

I hope these comments help. Do you know where you plan to live in Italy?[/quote]

hey mate thanks for the info..I still have a long way to go in learing about banking in uk as well as italy.

[quote=pigro;87656]Nigel, I think Remyholic's question was really about getting a UK mortgage to fund an Italian house purchase (rather than finding a convenient UK bank to deal with occasional funds transfers and day to day current account banking needs)?

Remy - as you'll be aware, the UK banking sector has its knickers in a knot right now, with banks scared to lend money to each other never mind to the (wo)man in the street.

yeah i think we will have to buy our house straight out or put half down on what ever we purchase...which is okay with us..
....by the way....we are looking in Le Marche, Toscana, and well thats about it for now..in that area though
...well i know my husband wants to by a place in England as well..so that may be what we do at the end of this year before purchasing next year in Italy.
Its all up in the air ..and it seems the way our lives go ..anything could happen..and were pretty much open to it as well :laughs:

I don't think the Americans are going to cash out. The ones that I know bought their houses with a long term perspective and have an emotional attachment to them. Also the cost of maintaining a house in Italy is not all that high even given the poor exchange rate.

[URL="http://villacasale.net"]Pas de Bidet[/URL]

[quote=stefanaccio;87852]Also the cost of maintaining a house in Italy is not all that high even given the poor exchange rate.[/quote]
...And isn't one already relatively tiny (compared to UK, anyway) cost of keeping a house in Italy - ICI property tax - supposedly about to disappear completely in our glorious "new" political dawn? :winki:

I've always wondered how many empty houses one would see in Italy if property taxes were not so miniscule.

All that applies to permanent foreign residents without a mortgage, IF they aren't totally reliant on foreign pensions/investments etc. to cover their living costs. It doesn't realy apply to holiday home owners who were sucked in by the 3+ years of heavy hype on TV telling them that they needed to get into the holiday home market for both lifestyle & investment reasons (and they couldn't lose).

These poor souls have probably put themselves in debt to fund their italian house purchase by borrowing against theoretical equity in their UK home. That theoretical equity is now debatable in practice (!!), and the repayments on the increased debt are rising despite central bank rate cuts (if they've come off a fixed deal and are faced with the new reality).

Add to that the currency issue - making actually using the holiday home much less cheap than it was in previous years ... and theres a large number of "Brit Friendly" houses that are still going to come on the market. Its a drop in the ocean for the Italian market as a whole (in fact totally insignifcant) but it will still IMO result in a glut of such property in what will become very much a buyers market.

And ICI is only going for prima casa (if Berlu even lives up to that commitment) ... not for holiday homes :-(

I agree that this could be a good buyers market; howver, only for those with the necessary cash in hand (no mortgages, etc) and the means to survive the high euro rates. A small minority, indeed! Anyway, I always thought it was crazy to mortage your property to get a secondary residence, almost similar to doing it to buy shares in a volatile market... even in a stable market... Pure gambling!

We've found the carrying costs of our places in Puglia FAR, FAR below those of our properties in the US -- taxes alone would have to increase by SIXTY times what they are in Italy to even approach what we're paying in property taxes in New York City and the Adirondacks. We thought the first ICI bill was a mistake (like the decimal in the wrong place kind of mistake) it was so low. No selling Americans here.

[quote=AllanMason;87855]...And isn't one already relatively tiny (compared to UK, anyway) cost of keeping a house in Italy - ICI property tax - supposedly about to disappear completely in our glorious "new" political dawn? :winki:

I've always wondered how many empty houses one would see in Italy if property taxes were not so miniscule.

Al[/quote]

I live in a townhouse and pay 70 euros council tax A YEAR!!! Don't think I'll be organising a big party to celebrate the abolition of ICI!!!!

Fully agree with Pigro's comment about the UK media being partially responsible for fuelling the massive move to the "sun" (where? where?) a few years back. I personally don't know anyone here who moved at that time but expat friends in France tell me many of their holiday home neighbours are suffering big time. Some remortgaged UK property heavily in order to buy obscenely large but cheap by UK standards house in France. Interests rates go up, the almost inevitable (because they only bought the place due to media and peer pressure, it wasn't as though they were die hard Francophiles) interest in returning to France for each and every holiday wears off. Yet now they can't sell. Add totally unrealistic expectations as to price appreciation and the sum they now want for it and you have a very depressing picture that I suspect is possibly quite widespread.

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