9328 so we have a new government

[quote=adriatica;87625]...that the lega nord did well is partly based on the workers of the north voting for them as a party of neither left or right but as a party of an area... despite their more tedious and ritualistic pronouncements on ethnic issues its most probably not as bad as it all seems to those that tend to dismiss them out of hand... Bossi has already given up the reins of power to a more moderate maroni in my opinion and hes a very clever and balanced man... socially more centre left than right ... what it will mean for italy this lega maxi vote again to my mind is that they will have to stop their more extreme statements and take a responsible stand... that the power base of italy commercially is the north is without doubt...start the new projects there you get benefits for the whole country... and its a place where the EU is willing to invest because they know the money goes on real projects not in someones back pocket... so Italy will benefit...because the north will start producing more and when the north produces the taxes gets paid... unlike most of Italy[/quote]
I'm not sure whether your misreading of the Lega Nord is as a result of reading too much Berlusconi propoganda or simply not knowing anything about the Lega - no personal offence intended.

The Lega is committed to the devolution of the northern area of Italy, defined by them as Padania. It is the area north of the river Po. Everyone else in Italy is considered (by the Lega) as a bunch of lazy thieves that are dedicated to stealing the food from the mouths of the babes in Padania. Rabid stuff, eh? .

Bossi was calling for the immediate eviction of the Roma families around Milan last night, to start the ball rolling. He has also demanded that the Lega be given a "substantial" number of seats in the new Berlusconi-led government.

The fact, proven over the last 14 years, is that the first priority for Berlusconi will be for the writing and passing of laws for his own personal interests. Then will follow various measures to favour his relatives and friends. Thirdly will be the protection of his own power base (yes, he did learn from the fall of his first government in 1994, where it was Bossi that caused his government to collapse). After all of that will be the business of making Italy [U]look[/U] a better place - and hang the public debt situation.

Never lose sight of the many favours that he owes and his willingness and ability to repay the favours from past years. He is, in his own way, a man of undoubted honour in that respect.

But, some good things have come out of the election as well. The creation of the two main political parties is a major achievement, which even the [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/15/witaly115.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_15042008"]Daily Telegraph [/URL]give praise and credit to Walter Veltroni for bringing the change about. My hope is that this change can continue and the strength of the parties is not now attacked and destroyed by the "old guard" of displaced politicians with many axes to grind and nothing else to fill their time with.

The official EU response is a little muted, of course, given that they have much experience of having to deal with Berlusconi already. The unofficial reactions have been less muted, as you would expect.

So. Three years of Belusconi as Prime Minister, to be followed by a period where he is just the "elder statesman" - during which time the changes to the constituancy that Berlusconi has already tried to bring about in the past can be "debated" and then passed into law. That should be just about the right time for him to ofer his services as the new President - in the US style, shouldn't it.

As Bossi said - I have a duro..

(apologies to the Italian speakers that offend easily).

nardini

no offence taken... i like to debate... but will wait for more input from others with good knowledge of the Italian system... or with opinions that differ... or less likely i suspect agree..... its a forum to discuss things after all

Both parties had promised to reduce taxes........by selling public assets. I would guess these will be at bargain prices to their mates.

I also worry where this ends. Sell the cow and now you have to buy the milk. Short term gain for long term pain?

[quote=Nardini;87634]The fact, proven over the last 14 years, is that the first priority for Berlusconi will be for the writing and passing of laws for his own personal interests. Then... SNIP[/quote]

That's about the sum of it, isn't it. My knowledge of Italian politics isn't enough to comment in great detail. As for the Lega Nord, they are chasing down the lowest common denominator. When I first visited at the time of the last election the posters said 'no to homosexual marriage', now they say 'immigrants out'; as if either were vital problems that Italy has to deal with. Racist and homophobic crap.

I look forward to how they deal with the real problems: Alitalia and Napoli perhaps?

[quote=sueflauto;87645]...at the time of the last election the posters said 'no to homosexual marriage', now they say 'immigrants out'...[/quote]
Do they mean us?

Or is "immigrant" just a euphemism for people from Eastern Europe and points further south and east without much money?

Al

Interesting,
I was in Italy over the weekend and obviously the subject was discussed in the village bar...
I got the impression people were unhappy with Berlusconi - the corruption and the manipulation of the laws to avoid being culpable for his false accounting crimes... they alleged he was mafiosi and only interested in his own wellbeing and that of his friends. I gather the mafia have been caught trying to submit 50,000 foreign votes (from Italians in Argentina?) - all of which had been completed by one man who was supposed to have distributed them.
It seems that Berlusconi's popularity lies in being entertaining and making popular promises, for example he has promised to sort out the rubbish in Naples.
I think it will be very difficult and painful for Italy to reform - so many people have state provided jobs, the burden to the country is huge -and the birthrate is now amongst the lowest in Europe. This has an effect on the number of taxpayers in the future who will be providing pensions etc for an ageing population. Selling state assets now will give a windfall but not solve the problem in the long term... I hope foreigners with holiday homes won't be picked on as a further source of revenue. After all we're already bringing in our foreign currency and spending it on building work, eating out, car hire, shopping...and beer in the bar while we chew the cud with the locals over their dodgy premier!
Marco Mando

I'm thinking that having a devious criminal multimillionaire as your head of state probably isn't going to do the country any good. I mean, look at the state of the US dollar.

Can someone point me to a web-site giving a detailed breakdown of the voting figures?....by region, Senate and lower house and so on. Many thanks.

[quote=Ivan;87650]Can someone point me to a web-site giving a detailed breakdown of the voting figures?....by region, Senate and lower house and so on. Many thanks.[/quote]
Certo...

[URL="http://politiche2008.interno.it/"]Primo...[/URL]

[URL="http://primapaginacasertana.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/elezioni-2008-come-si-vota/"]Secondo...[/URL]

[URL="http://www.google.it/search?q=vota+elezione+senato+camera&hl=it&start=10&sa=N"]Terzo...[/URL]

etc.

I'm just pleased that (whether by judgement or luck or misfortune) somebody, as it turns out Berlusconi, has the opportunity to "drive" the country forwards, without having to cobble togeher an alliance of greens, blues pinks and whatevers. I've often had to confirm to my local village friends that politically Italy has been a laughing stock across much of Europe - thankfully now that can change.
Going forwards at least there can be no excuses - promises must be delivered on and 5 years down the road, well fingers crossed that some nice stuff happens to a nation of people who I think are exceptional.
Chris
[url=http://www.olivopiegato.com]Tuscany Bed and Breakfast - L'Olivo Piegato, The Crooked Olive[/url]

[quote=Ghianda;87660]
Going forwards at least there can be no excuses - promises must be delivered on and 5 years down the road, well fingers crossed that some nice stuff happens to a nation of people who I think are exceptional.[/quote]

hear hear, the long suffering people really deserve a break! it's a big ask though, and only an eternal optimist would assume that a working majority alone will produce any real improvement - that can only come with difficult decisions being taken for the public good rather than for personal gain ... and Berlu's track record ain't exactly great on that front.

[quote=AllanMason;87647]Do they mean us?
Al[/quote]

Dunno, but I haven't found anybody to marry yet...

Ghianda, good point. Berlu can't pass the buck if he has a decent majority.

An important point for everyone to bear in mind is that Berlusconi only has a majority[B][U] IF[/U][/B] he works with Lega Nord.

This is the great problem that will now be facing Italian politics and is a problem that will be very pertinent to everyone that is classified as an immigrant. Yes, that will include EU citizens as well as, of course, any US citizens, Australians, etc. The problem that might be seen by some as an issue involving only people of Eastern European or African/Chinese/Indian origin will also apply to people from all of the other countries - including the English speaking ones.

Lega Nord now have the power to vote against Berlusconi and defeat him in both houses whenever they chose and that is a power that they will have no hesitation whatsoever in using should it suit them - as they have done in the past. They also have the power to enforce their own policies as a way to trade support for Berlusconi when it suits them. A worry indeed.

Lega Nord now have the power to vote against Berlusconi and defeat him in both houses whenever they chose and that is a power that they will have no hesitation whatsoever in using should it suit them - as they have done in the past. They also have the power to enforce their own policies as a way to trade support for Berlusconi when it suits them. A worry indeed.[/quote]

Understood, but the stuff I've been reading from the English press seems to indicate they (Lega Nord) have moved on a bit. Besides which surely if they wreck any "sensible" changes which the big B proposes they would be fearful for their future too, albeit next time an election comes around. They only got 8%ish of the vote and some of that would not have been from serious supporters. Non lo so, but the sooner racism, xenophobia, etc and its champions are shown the door by voters the better even if it were to be by default.
Off to cook dinner for guests
Chris
[url=http://www.olivopiegato.com]Tuscany Bed and Breakfast - L'Olivo Piegato, The Crooked Olive[/url]

[quote=Ghianda;87687]Understood, but the stuff I've been reading from the English press seems to indicate they (Lega Nord) have moved on a bit. Besides which surely if they wreck any "sensible" changes which the big B proposes they would be fearful for their future too, albeit next time an election comes around. They only got 8%ish of the vote and some of that would not have been from serious supporters. Non lo so, but the sooner racism, xenophobia, etc and its champions are shown the door by voters the better even if it were to be by default.[/quote]
This is most definitely not what the Lega are saying here in Lombardy. With such a strength of opinion on the side of the Lega, they are saying the most outrageous things at the moment - which you will not see in the English language press for a while. The one thing the Lega are not is scared of Berlusconi. Perhaps the best analogy for the UK reader might be to consider the BNP as an example of equivalency. It was interesting to hear Bossi saying that the Lega have no political views other than nationalistic ones - this morning, in fact.

Lega Nord are not to be taken lightly and their power has grown enormously with this election. Over 8.2% in Italy as a whole, but [URL="http://politiche2008.interno.it/politiche/camera080413/C070000000.htm"]in the Veneto[/URL], for example, they actually beat Berlusconi and won 28.163% of the vote for the lower house. This is very much the picture in the north - Lombardy giving nearly 28% in the north of the region, 16% in Milan and 18% in the rest. Piemonte is much the same, giving the Lega a huge burst of ego - and a "duro" the size of Russia!

[url=http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/archive/200507/]RGE - Nouriel Roubini's Global EconoMonitor[/url]

God help Italy........ the link is from 2005 and is mainly about the euro, but if you carry on to the middle part,it reveals how berlo actually did sweet nothing to help the Italian economy....!

What a disaster,what short memories the fickle have...........

All I can say to defend Lega Nord is that having seen what Sindaco Tosi has done in a short time to rid Verona of many illegal street sellers etc is remarkable and I admire him for what he has done.
I do feel that Italy has a great problem with illegal immigrants (not us!!!) and the time has come to sort it out.

They "LEGA NORD" will fight to save Malpensa but they will also refuse to have Naples send up their rubbish while they sit happily back and strum their mandolins.

Sorry but I just don't wear that attitude at all.

Now Bossi with a duro !!!! Not a pretty sight I would not think.

i think that its obvious to most that politicians when campaigning make statements that one should realise are just that...campaigning rubbish... this applies to all the parties...

its not long ago that veltroni had many of the camps around Rome dismantled as the Mayor of that city in order to try and build some credibility after Prodi and his non action on illegal immigration here...

the lega has made a speciality of this cause... and surprisingly enough the Italians vote that way... and who can blame them.... its to my mind a misguided path... but i wouldn't have the answer to solve the problem and who is to say which way is right or wrong when many of the people that move out of the UK do so because of problems caused by violence between groups and low expectations of quality of life whilst complaints are rife about the help immigrants receive...

it strikes me that a lot of people on this forum move here for the safer feeling and the freedom to stroll the streets.... many city italians feel that freedom is already lost and they are ready to fight to get it back..... right or wrong... and they blame only one thing... and its basically eastern europeans and more specifically rumanians and albanians.... it has a huge problem and it really is not one that can be discounted by any political party...
it is just getting to grips with a problem that has beset the whole of europe and if there was a good or easy solution to it i am sure they would be following it already...

i do not see the mass deportation of any race taking place especially not of any european community countries citizens but i do see a tightening up of requirements based on lack of criminal record... work to go to... self sustainable as regards health and accommodation... and not in a wooden hut under the motorway... however this does not make italy exceptional as many of the european countries are already pushing measures like this through...

the other point about the lega is that it did not campaign on separatism but on federalism ... which is entirely different and in the context of italy understandable... when they are the main area ploughing funds into the national coffers and that then those resources are wasted... there is no reason on earth why a salaried worker in the north should not be living his life on a salary the equivalent of a normal UK salary and paying tax at the same rate... because its an efficient a place as anywhere in Europe... instead they find themselves at the bottom of the salary tree and the top of the tax noose.. they have a great deal of pride up there in their work and ability...i guess they are just sick and tired of never being recognised...

as regards berlusconi and the lega ... they have always got on well... the problems with past berlo governments were more due to UDC pressures and refusals and this time around Cassini is outside the loop so i see no major problems with this coalition because strict terms were set between the two and they are clear.... time will tell though...and this is Italy

berlo and his criminal past is always an easy way of putting down what he might achieve... I've said it on many occasions here and it still holds true.... prodi was as much a criminal and has as murky a background... and most italian politicians are essentially in the same situation ...very strange incomes ... and lifestyles...

the amount of politicians here that have bought ex public owned property in the centre of cities and made millions of euros makes the ... was it lady porter in westminster...scandal seem like someone stealing pennies... in fact the difference is here its all known about but no one gets done for it or has to repay anything... so i would rather have an honest thief who has made zillions running the place than some of the petty thieves...lining there own pockets for a measly few hundred thousand...

as regards mediaset and Italy... the most corrupt organization here is the RAI in terms of media... it is one sided, hopelessly outdated and full of friends doing jobs for friends... it keeps documentaries that do not follow the italian history books off the air by buying them and never showing them... its a rabid supporter of all things left,extreme left and communist... and does little if anything in what could be termed public interest programming but sets the bassist of terms here in sexist television and very low brow game shows... media set by italian standards to my mind is a shining star and makes better programmes and better entertainment and its satire programs knock both right and left equally.... its a commercial set of stations so can basically do what it wants... the RAI should be better

i still hope for something good to happen to Italy from this result... but Italy and its politics is a bit like the England football team... whenever they look like they are doing well they loose... by doing something completely and utterly stupid... there is a massive job to do here and there will be huge resistance from the extreme left that still runs basically the whole civil service, the judiciary and public broadcasting plus halve the national papers...we will see

[quote]By [B]'adriatica':[/B]
"....that the lega nord did well is partly based on the workers of the north voting for them as a party of neither left or right but as a party of an area... despite their more tedious and ritualistic pronouncements on ethnic issues its most probably not as bad as it all seems to those that tend to dismiss them out of hand... Bossi has already given up the reins of power to a more moderate maroni in my opinion and hes a very clever and balanced man... socially more centre left than right ... what it will mean for italy this lega maxi vote again to my mind is that they will have to stop their more extreme statements and take a responsible stand... that the power base of italy commercially is the north is without doubt...start the new projects there you get benefits for the whole country... and its a place where the EU is willing to invest because they know the money goes on real projects not in someones back pocket... so Italy will benefit...because the north will start producing more and when the north produces the taxes gets paid... unlike most of Italy"[/quote]

This is so true - so many northern Italians (and especially the big city dwellers) have felt this way for a long time, and as you say 'Who can blame them?' All they want is that their taxes are collected and redistributed by Milano and NOT Roma. But I fear that unless, or until, the Lega becomes much more powerful no one will bother to listen - it's very convenient to keep the satus quo on such matters - without which the South might actually have to look to 'the families' to subsidise them, and we all know that ain't going to happen - don't we?

Adriatica, I think you're deluding yourself. And I think it's because your own sympathies are with the Right. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but I think it's giving you a rose-tinted view of what a Berlusconi government will bring.

Based on the actual evidence of his past behaviour, rather than campaign promises and hopeful predictions of what a government with a clear majority might be able to do, I am very pessimistic about any prospect of actually dealing with the country's problems.

I predict that things will be generally worse by the time of the next election. If I'm wong, you can say "told you so".

(Yes, I would have preferred a Veltroni win. I'd even prefer Prodi to be still running the country, even though he was an excellent cure for insomnia.)

I feel that it is a very bad situation indeed for the balance of power to rest with such a group of fanatics as the Lega. I also feel that it is disgraceful that a government cannot rule effectively in large swathes of the country because organised crime has the upper hand. What I don't understand is how the majority of Italians I know, who are hard-working, thoughtful and honest, feel they have absolutely nobody to represent them, except perhaps Di Pietro. Why can't Italy produce efficient, uncorrupt politicians who believe in the common good, rather than lining their own pockets? Beats me.

[quote=English teacher;87752]I feel that it is a very bad situation indeed for the balance of power to rest with such a group of fanatics as the Lega. I also feel that it is disgraceful that a government cannot rule effectively in large swathes of the country because organised crime has the upper hand. What I don't understand is how the majority of Italians I know, who are hard-working, thoughtful and honest, feel they have absolutely nobody to represent them, except perhaps Di Pietro. [B][I][COLOR="red"]Why can't Italy produce efficient, uncorrupt politicians who believe in the common good, rather than lining their own pockets? Beats me.[[/COLOR][/I]/B][/quote]

They do - but unfortunately for years [I]'they'[/I] have also had ways of eliminating such people either physically (e.g. Aldo Moro) or by putting the frighteners on politicians, judges and policemen...

[QUOTE=Dream Academy;87708]

They "LEGA NORD" will fight to save Malpensa but they will also refuse to have Naples send up their rubbish while they sit happily back and strum their mandolins.

Hello... did someone call me?! [url=http://www.myspace.com/marcwoodward]MySpace.com - Marc Woodward - UK - Acoustic - www.myspace.com/marcwoodward[/url]
Marco mando
(sorry, not hijacking thread - just ignore me and I'll go back to strumming..)

[quote=Steve Graham;87735]...................I predict that things will be generally worse by the time of the next election. If I'm wrong, you can say "told you so"...........[/quote]

For Italian politics - that's a bit like predicting that 'it will get dark tonight'!

.