9326 Residency application needs translations!

Thinking back, I believe we had to get our wedding certificate translated for the Comune (this was to do with using my married name on official documents). Quite often you`ll find that the local English language school/teacher will translate things for you at a very reasonable rate and it seems to satisfy the Comune, especially if the teacher is known in the area.

Thanks for the advice.... but is it normal for a comune to ask for every document to be translated, including the standard E121 form? Does anyone know if there is an equivalent Italian form?

Graham

Well I had to provide my E121 to the Milan ASL Office and more beaurocratic than them you just don't get. But there was NO question of a translation of ANY 'E' forms. They are European forms and they have the equivalents here.

Try this link
[URL="http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/index.html"]>Your Europe<[/URL]
This is the English version but [U]top right hand corner[/U] you can change it to any language - maybe a copy of the relevant page 'in Italian' about health provision in the EU (i.e. E121/E111 etc) might solve the problem for you.

Hello There,
Just wanted to say they are having a laugh at your expense. There is no legal requiment for you to translate your documents and I'm almost 100% they don't have the right to ask for any of those documents anyway.
Your applying for residency not permission to stay. You should take your mothers passport codice fiscale and permesso de sorgiorno and that's it.
Residency give no rights to your mother it's just the fact that she is living with you.
Tell them your'll get a lawyer.

Does your mother already possess a Permesso di Soggiorno, or has she lived in Italy for more than 5 years? If so, then her right to residence is automatic.
The Permesso di Soggiorno is no longer issued to EU citizens and, as you say, the freedom to be resident in a country is now dependent on health cover and financial resources and they DO have a right to ask for those documents.
As far as the translation is concerned, this may be a classic case of different Comunes having different rules. The trouble with the changeover from the process being handled by the Questura to the Comunes, is that the Questura dealt with these things on a day-to-day basis and were used to the rules, whereas many office staff at the Comune frankly don't know what they are doing. Your best bet is to use your power of persuasion, and either translate, roughly, for them, or bring someone along to translate for you.

Can't help with the specific issue, but I'd think carefully before any mention of lawyers. Regardless of the rights & wrongs, that may make things substantially worse before it makes them better and will leave you painted into a rather difficult corner should they decide to do a jobsworth & call your bluff.

Even if they capitulate, it will not be forgotten. Whether you view that as a good or bad thing is up to you, depends on the size of your coglioni - you may be forever remembered as someone to be respected ... or just as a nasty foreigner, to be made subject to the worst that Italian bureaucracy can throw at you forever after ... rather you than me :eerr:

softly softly cachee monkee!

Many thanks to all for the advice.

In reply to Marc, my mother has only lived here for 6 months, and therefore does not have a Permesso di Soggiorno as she is an EU citizen, and also does not have the right to automatic residence.

Reluctantly it seems that we will probably have to provide rough translations of the documents requested. Most of them are quite small, but the E121 has several pages & will be quite a task to translate.

I have tried the link to the [URL="http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/index.html"][/URL] site, kindly suggested by Carole B, but cannot find a reference to the Italian equivalent of an E121. Any other suggestions please?

Thanks

Graham

Below is the link to the page (in Italian) that [I]should [/I]help . Then I have copied the two sections of that page that explain clearly in Italian the rights for people from other countires in the EU. I hope this might help. If they still insist on a translation of the E121, send me a PM and I'll willingly do one for you. Lastly a copy of useful documents from the same page. But I still maintain that the Comune has no need of the E121, [U]but ASL will need it[/U] to be able to allocate a doctor and issue the 'Carta Sanitario'(now a plastic card like the one used in the UK)

[URL="http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/it/citizens/living/social-security/sickness/index_it.html#32_8"][B]>RELEVANT PAGE IN ITALIAN<[/B][/URL]

[B]Prestazioni di malattia in natura[/B]
(Sickness benefits in kind)
Comprendono le cure mediche e dentarie, i medicinali e i ricoveri in ospedale, nonché i pagamenti diretti destinati a rimborsare i costi di queste prestazioni.

Di regola vengono erogate conformemente alla legislazione del paese di residenza o di soggiorno, come se il beneficiario fosse assicurato in quel paese. Questo potrebbe comportare una situazione più o meno favorevole rispetto al trattamento previsto dalla legislazione del paese in cui il beneficiario è effettivamente assicurato.

[B]Residenza in un paese diverso da quello in cui la persona è assicurata[/B]
( Residence outside the country where you are insured)
La persona che risiede in un paese diverso da quello in cui è assicurata ha diritto a tutte le prestazioni in natura previste dalla legislazione del suo paese di residenza. Le prestazioni sono erogate dall’istituzione di assicurazione malattia del luogo di residenza come se il beneficiario fosse assicurato in quel paese.

[B]Documenti utili[/B]
(Useful Documents)
* E 104: cumulo dei periodi di assicurazione negli Stati membri laddove sia prescritto che la fruizione del diritto sia preceduta da un periodo di carenza.
* E 106: iscrizione nello Stato membro di residenza
* E 109: certificato per l’iscrizione dei familiari che vivono in uno Stato membro diverso da quello del lavoratore dipendente o autonomo interessato.
* E 111: prestazioni urgenti durante un soggiorno temporaneo (per quanto riguarda i pensionati e i loro familiari: prestazioni necessarie)
* E 119: autorizzazione di accesso alle prestazioni in natura necessarie a un disoccupato in cerca di occupazione in un altro Stato membro.
* E 121: iscrizione dei pensionati e dei loro familiari nello Stato membro di residenza.
* E 128: autorizzazione di accesso alle prestazioni in natura necessarie ai lavoratori dipendenti o autonomi in trasferta, ai loro familiari e agli studenti.

[B]La Tessera europea di assicurazione malattia[/B]
(The European health insurance card)
La tessera europea di assicurazione malattia sostituirà il modulo E 111 a partire dal 1° giugno 2004.

Many thanks Carole for sending the link to the relevant page on the ec.europa.eu site. I have printed out the info in both languages, & will go back to the anagrafe office in the next couple of days, to see if I can persuade them that the English version should be all that they need.

I will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

Graham

Hello Again,
I have read the further replies on residency and find it somewhat saddening on the English character that everyone one seems to have this attitude of capitulation. Where's the back bone? I havn't given in, and what's further the one thing I have learnt about Italian mentality is they who shout loudest get listen too first!
As has been pointed out under European legalisation were all EU citizens and residency ie; the right have housing, can't be refused by some petty official in the anagrafe. In England you would hopefully stand your ground and you shouldn't change because your in Italy.
The last thing on your mind should be worry about what the anagrafe could do in the future.
Stand your ground.

[quote=il cacciatore;87683]Hello Again,
I have read the further replies on residency and find it somewhat saddening on the English character that everyone one seems to have this attitude of capitulation. Where's the back bone? I havn't given in, and what's further the one thing I have learnt about Italian mentality is they who shout loudest get listen too first!
As has been pointed out under European legalisation were all EU citizens and residency ie; the right have housing, can't be refused by some petty official in the anagrafe. In England you would hopefully stand your ground and you shouldn't change because your in Italy.
The last thing on your mind should be worry about what the anagrafe could do in the future.
Stand your ground.[/quote]
Let us know how you get on then, eh? You big, butch brute, you..

;)

I'm scottish actually :-) pesonally, I'll stand my ground all day long if neccessary, but not via threats about lawyers, just with a calm re-statement of what I believe to be required (backed up by some documents & friendly local support if possible) to try and get what I want with as little drama as possible. If I can make a friend rather than an enemy out of the discussion so much the better.

It's all well and good to exhibit your bulldog spirit, but it will undoubtedly ruffle feathers when you tell someone how to do their job, particularly in a foreign language. Depending on whose feathers they are (and who they're related to/married to etc.) you may be setting yourself up for a fall.

That may be no loss to you, but it's not [B][I]you[/I][/B] that you are advising, it's someone else. If keepwick needs to keep his local comune onside, advising him to even mention lawyers over this issue is misguided until all reasonable efforts have been expended on resolving it amicably.

I can't speak with any authority on this, but I have a feeling that if your mother is of pensionable age and is an EU citizen, she is entitled to enlist in the Italian health system (ASL) even without having made any social security contributions in Italy. That should take care of the health cover issue. Check this out with your local ASL office.

[quote=Marc;87691]I can't speak with any authority on this, but I have a feeling that if your mother is of pensionable age and is an EU citizen, she is entitled to enlist in the Italian health system (ASL) even without having made any social security contributions in Italy. That should take care of the health cover issue. Check this out with your local ASL office.[/quote]

Our local ASL office in Marche accept the english versions of the E121 or E106, so registering for health cover should not be a problem.

Its just the local comune office at San Ginesio that is asking for a translation for the residency application, but as its a very small comune, I am not too keen on getting a lawyer involved at this stage

Graham

Goodness - it's an absolute minefield, we are having much the same problems as the comune are demanding that we have a translated version of our marriage certificate stamped by 'the consulate '. I phoned the british consulate and got miss 'I'm not in the mood today' and was told in no uncertain terms that they don't do that and it wasn't needed!!! Back went my husband with a nice home made typed out italian version and was once again told 'need consulate stamp'. He tried phoning the consulate and got the same response - we have since been advised by an american / italian work colleague that what we need to do is go to the italian consulate in the uk for it to be verified / stamped................:veryconfused:

You may need this done by the Foreign Office, then it goes to the italian embassy for recognition and stamping.

An interesting section from the 'Your Europe' site to which Carole B provided a link
(and this is from a section for EU citizens with [U]fewest[/U] rights, i.e. those not working etc.):
[I]
Your right of residence is evidenced by issue of a registration certificate. Community legislation no longer obliges Union citizens to obtain residence permit as proof of the fact that you have the right of residence. You have this right because you meet the conditions and not because the host Member State “permitted” you to reside there.

For the registration certificate to be issued, the host Member State may only require that you present a valid identity card or passport[1] and

* a proof of comprehensive sickness insurance cover; and
* a proof of sufficient resources[2].

The registration certificate shall be issued immediately and with an unlimited validity[/I]

[url=http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/living/right-residence-more-3-months/for-other-citizens/index_en.html]European Commission - Your Europe - Citizens - for other Union citizens[/url]

As far as I know, Italian law now complies with the above. It's just that, perhaps understandably within a small [I]comune[/I], not all bureaucrats have yet caught up with recent changes. And/or, they get confused with the much more onerous requirements for non-EU citizens.

For a pensioner the E121 ought to provide sufficient proof of health cover, but with a 'difficult' [I]comune[/I] it might sometimes be easier to go to the ASL first and then return to the [I]comune[/I] [U]after[/U] you have obtained Italian health cover, as to obtain this a residence certificate is no longer officially necessary and the ASL bureaucrats might possibly be more up to date. That way, no translation of an E121 could possibly be required.

[quote=bosco;87703]
For a pensioner the E121 ought to provide sufficient proof of health cover, but with a 'difficult' [I]comune[/I] it might sometimes be easier to go to the ASL first and then return to the [I]comune[/I] [U]after[/U] you have obtained Italian health cover, as to obtain this a residence certificate is no longer officially necessary and the ASL bureaucrats might possibly be more up to date.[/quote]

Many thanks for suggesting this..... I will try my local ASL office to see if they will issue health cover without a residence certificate. This could be a lot easier & quicker than getting the E121 form translated.

Graham

Many thanks for your thanks.

Please let us all know if it works - because as you've been finding, what should be possible in theory does not always happen in practice!

[quote=bosco;87737]Many thanks for your thanks.

Please let us all know if it works - because as you've been finding, what should be possible in theory does not always happen in practice![/quote]

I went to the local ASL office in San Ginesio this morning, but they refused to consider a registration for Italian health cover, until my mother has obtained her residency. We are hoping that the main area office in Macerata might be more up to date. So we plan to visit the office there early next week.
If not we will reluctantly have to supply a translation of the E121 to the comune.

Graham

Uh-oh - the classic chicken-and-egg gambit. You can't have residency until you have helath cover, but you can't have health cover until you have residency. <>

[quote=il cacciatore;87683]... and find it somewhat saddening on the English character that everyone one seems to have this attitude of capitulation. Where's the back bone?[/quote]
Behind the sternum, connecting the pelvis and the cranium, if my memory serves me, but ask a qualified doctor if in doubt ;-)

The way I see it is this:
You can (should be able?) to get residency [I]without[/I] having to prove the right to health care with such things as E121's.

BUT

You [I]cannot[/I] be allocated a doctor or be given health care (even if you are Italian) if you are [I]not[/I] a resident!

The 'villains here are, without a doubt, the "jobsworths" in the Ufficio Anagrafe... but if they won't accept the European Guidelines on the matter, it doesn't matter what you do they will still insist on a translation. I've sent you a PM about that Grahame!

Below is the precise wording that has led me to believe that you can choose to register first at [U]either [/U]the ASL [U]or[/U] the comune:

[I]While EU nationals having all the requirements for
registration with the NHS (unless they have an E121 Form)
have no obligation to apply for their registration in the
National Registry, Legislative Decree No 30/2007 provides that
the Local Authority has the responsibility to establish that the EU
national has all the requirements to be registered with the National
Registry.

Either:
(i) The EU national having the requirements to be registered
with the NHS can apply to the Local Authority for registration with
the National Registry; the Registrar shall ask for any documents he
deems necessary for the registration.

Such information, however, are not sufficient for the
registration with the NHS; therefore, the EU National must produce
to the ASL all the documents required, as listed here below.

Or:
(ii) [U]the EU National may decide to register first with the NHS
a[t] the ASL and then choose to apply for registration with the
Registry Office.[/U]

In either cases, he/she is expected to provide the ASL with
the documents justifying his/her registration with the NHS. [/I]
[my underline]

The above comes from the relevant current Italian Ministry of Health Circular, which is available for download as a PDF (labelled 'Residency requirements') in both English and in the original Italian here;

[url=http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1152525284045]Italian health systemBritish Embassy, Italy[/url]

This is the Circular which I believe the ASL should be following, and taking a print-off of the original Italian version to the ASL might be helpful?

[quote]Bt bosco: [I]While EU nationals having all the requirements for
registration with the NHS [B][U][COLOR="red"](unless they have an E121 Form)[/COLOR][/U][/B]
have no obligation to apply for their registration in the
National Registry, Legislative Decree No 30/2007 provides that
the Local Authority has the responsibility to establish that the EU
national has all the requirements to be registered with the National
Registry.[/I] [/quote]

Oh it is a real minefield isn't it...
But I wonder why the 'exception' of [I]"unless they have anE121form"[/I]?

I know that when I applied for health care with my E121 I was provided with a book of vouchers which I could take to any Doctor who would then treat me and/or issue me with a prescription free of charge. The doctor then had to present that voucher to ASL for repayment of his fee. Then once I had my Permesso di Soggiorno (no longer required) and my residency documents (or the receipt for my application) then I surrendered my E121 to ASL and they issued me with my Libretto Sanitario and I chose my doctor from their list...

Just as an aside - I remember the (then) translation from Italian to English of the instructions on the E121 'Voucher Booklet' - I'm certain that the authorities had done it with and electronic translator :laughs: . But at least the doctors could understand 'their' instructions and that was all I cared about!

The problem you will come across most often is - as Carol B says above - the official in the ufficio anagrafe. There is very little you can say when you are facing one that is sticking to her/his guns about their interpretation of the law. Yes, I know that there are those that would say be "English and demand" your "rights" - but, sadly, in the face of an ignorant anagrafe that won't get you anywhere but to the attention of the local polizotto.

My advice, as always, is to be fully prepared with MORE pieces of paper that you think you need. If your anagrafe wants translation, it will prove easier and cheaper to get a translation of everything and have it with you in a large file. I know that there will be those that will object to this as being very "unenglish" behaviour, but it is the best chance of achieving your objective. Leave your ego at home when facing officialdom here, hard though it may be at the time. Keep in mind your objective and set out to get it in the easiest way possible for you.

It is't capitulating to the enemy, remember. It is getting what you want. And yes, I get angry at the "jobsworth" facing me sometimes as well - I say a few things in English to relieve my tension whilst smiling and if it gets to the point where I cannot smile any longer, I leave the field of battle in order to live another day, returning when someone else is in the ufficio anagrafe. Difficult at times, I know, but the only practical way. Legal battles should be fought via your lawyer, not facing your protaganist yourself.

One final point is to remind you that the Italian official you are talking to will not accept any document that is not an official Italian one. A British interpretation, even from the British Embassy, will not have any more significance than the writing on the back of a box of cornflakes for an official intent on obstruction.

Good luck - all!

[quote=Nardini;87841] the Italian official you are talking to will not accept any document that is not an official Italian one. A British interpretation, even from the British Embassy, will not have any more significance than the writing on the back of a box of cornflakes. [/quote]

I agree completely.

Stimulated by Nardini's post, I went to check the Italian wording of the section I posted above. To my surprise (given that the two PDFs are posted on the British Embassy website in exactly the same place and under exactly the same title), I discovered that the English wording is - in my view rather misleadingly - no longer a translation of the adjacent Italian text. Instead, it is a much fuller document of which the Italian original has now been removed from the Embassy website.

The English text therefore has in itself no offical standing whatsoever in Italian eyes, so my suggestion that an Italian version of it might be helpful if used with Italian officials is (a) not possible without doing your own translation, and (b) incorrect - unless anyone has access to the original.

Very sorry about that! I was trying to be helpful - but have not succeeded.

[quote=Carole B;87840]Oh it is a real minefield isn't it...
But I wonder why the 'exception' of [I]"unless they have anE121form"[/I]?
[/quote]

I think that this might be because for everyone except pensioners, entitlement to benefits of any kind derives solely from their contribution to the Italian state through taxation etc. And records of this will exist whether you register as resident or not.

However pensioners' entitlements depend upon contributions made in another EU state, and if a pensioner gets any Italian benefits I believe the Italian state may be able claim money back from the state which gives you your pension. So they want to know who you are, where you are, and where from!

I may however be wrong.

[QUOTE=bosco;87869] "the Italian original has now been removed from the Embassy website.... unless anyone has access to the original."

It is however here: [url=http://www.anolf.it/circolari/minsalute_3_08_07.htm]Ministero della Salute: Circolare del 3/08/2007[/url] so my suggestion may still be appropriate.

and the relevant section (which might be highlighted on a print-off?) is
[I]In seconda ipotesi il cittadino comunitario, può scegliere di recarsi prima presso la ASL per l'iscrizione al SSN e poi, in secondo momento, può richiedere, se ritiene, l'iscrizione anagrafica. In ambedue i casi dovrà sempre presentare alla ASL la documentazione che giustifica l'iscrizione al SSN.[/I]

The clickable link [I]'allegato'[/I] at the top of the [I]Circolare[/I] leads to the list of documents required for health registration.

You're right 'bosco' - the 'allegato' pdf file of [I]required documents[/I] (page 3 penultimate item) for a pensoner states quite clearly that to enlist at an ASL office the pensioner must present two documents -
1. E121
2. Proof that they have applied for residency OR their residency permission.

[URL="http://www.anolf.it/download/minsalute_3_08_07_all.1.pdf"][B]>REQUIRED DOCUMENTS<[/B][/URL]

I have been to the anagrafe office at San Ginesio this morning, and "Jobsworth" has accepted an E121 translation (kindly supplied by CaroleB), without any questions at all. So we now have the official receipt of the pending residency, and are just awaiting the police visit in the next couple of weeks.

I also went to the local ASL office which is nearby, and they have given the health cover with the E121 form (English copy) & the residency application receipt. It is only for 3 months initially, but this will be converted to permanent cover once the residency application is processed.

So it has been a successful day today, and I would like to thank everyone for their help & advice.

Graham

Congratulations.