In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
i think that where your arguments to my mind fall down....is that you specialise in berlusconi problems... if you look far wider and far longer you will see that a lot of what you say in context of political misuse of power applies to Prodi for one but to almost all Italian politicians
by describing him as a non politician or outside normal politics could be justified in a world sense but in Italy he fits right in and to my mind epitomises the true Italian politician ... italian politics and criminality are one and the same thing and it is in my view again almost naive to think you can separate the two and if any party is more wound up in that sort of relationship than another it is most probably the UDC with Cassini... further complicated indeed again in my opinion by not only involvements of various political parties on left and right with both extreme terrorism and criminality but to top it all the catholic church has to be taken into consideration...
Pietro has another agenda entirely and used the power of that investigation to increase his own standing and political position to increase his personal wealth and is one of the truly mad people here ...his rantings when he gets going are comparable to some baptist lay preacher possessed by some higher being whilst raking in the coins...if that is who you believe is the best of Italian politics the place will really need help
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
And therein lies the rub. You see, I don't believe that Italy has what it deserves in Berlusconi. I don't think that the criminality that is to be found within the Italian political players ranks is something just sighing and saying, "that's how it is", with a shrug will answer. It is exactly that sort of attitude that encourages the criminality that, unfortunately, has pervaded Italian politics for so long. The situation that allowed "Lucky" Luciano free reign to run Napoli immediately after the liberation forces landed, at the end of the Italian war, has an awful lot to answer for, in my opinion.
I consider that your opinion of Di Pietro is misinformed, however. Yes, it is true that Belusconi certainly spread a lot of rumour due to his poweful position owning and running the media - however, Di Pietro was and remains one of the few people involved in Italian politics that have stood by their moral guns throughout a sad phase of Italian political history.
You might gather by this that I would tend to lend Di Pietro my support, despite (or is it because?) he is very much a Conservative in his political views with the addition of a strong moral sense of right and wrong. I would also support Casini and even, perhaps, Fini in some cases, so your view of me as a communisti would be only a Fede-inspired view.
Without wasting too much more bandwidth here in batting our views back and fore, might I suggest a reading list to you that you really should read and digest. They are very interesting books and are not too inclined in any particular political view. These would present a lot of information regarding the Berlusconi fable that you would, with an open mind, find most interesting.
Sack of Rome (Alexander Stille)
Berlusconi's Shadow (David Lane)
also, for more background to recent Italian history:
The Force of Destiny (Christopher Duggan)
Naples '44 (Norman Lewis)
I'm not avoiding your contentions, but I could easily write a book on the quasi-political situation that has been created around dott. Berlusconi and this isn't the right place to go into any great depth around the situation.
I really do recommend those books though - whatever your political complexion.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Excellent comment and yes we have read them and more and we have followed the brave Economist magazine in their attempts to "expose" Berlusconi in the past. But ask an Italian and I doubt they will have read any of these. Our dearest Italian friends simply shrug and regard it as something happening in Rome!!! I conclude (very simplistic I know) that Italians like an upbeat approach, even if what is being said isn't actually true. It makes them feel better and Signor B seems to do that...he after all trained as a professional entertainer!! All desperately sad....
The problem with the view you give here, adriatica - in my honest opinion, that is - is that you are confusing the issues surrounding Berlusconi with political problems. Yes, certainly, he is representative of a fairly - some extremely - right-wing politicians. That is not the issue though, here in Italy.
Berlusconi is, many regards, not of any particular political hue. He was, after all, brought into the political arena by a socialist - Craxi - and he has always avowed himself as more centre than right. He is more the "ring master" of a group of people that have been happy enough for Berlusconi to use them and their political nouse to present a political party that has no real political values. Power was (and still is) the objective of Berlusconi's political career. No more and no less.
To try and equate him to a conventional (if there is such an animal) political figure, such as we, as mainly ex-pats, were brought up with would be in error. Berlusconi created a political party (Forza Italia) out of the need to change certain laws that would affect him and his rather large group of companies. Remember that the "Clean Hands" criminal investigation was in full swing at the time as well. He pulled together a couple of rather extreme political parties that were unaffiliated at the time; Lega Nord in the north of Italy and the Alleanza Nazionale in southern Italy. The fact that the two parties loathed each other did not stop an alliance from being forged by Berlusconi that, by the use of extreme media manipulation, managed to squeeze into power. This gave the opportunity for a rash of laws to be passed that stopped or severely hindered the criminal investigations against Berlusconi that were in progress at the time. Antonio di Pietro - a right wing magistrate - was one of the main investigating magistrates, you may recall.
Berlusconi did not pay sufficient attention to the "needs" of Bossi though, and had the rug pulled when he didn't jump to the tune that the Lega demanded be played. End of Berlusconi gov. Mk 1.
By Berlusconi Mk2, he had pretty much got the handle on Bossi though. Firstly by increasing the vote for Forza Italia at the expense of the Lega and secondly by "helping" Bossi with some pretty serious financial problems that he found himself in. Berlusconi is always very, very generous to his friends, you know.
He bumbled his way through the next 5 years by, mainly, not doing anything very much at all, save for some very heavy duty PR for himself. Yes, why not build the longest bridge in the world in the middle of an earthquake zone - straddling a fault line that is moving Sicily northward a little every day. Yes, let's open the Autostrada in Calabria - not once, but 3 times! Etc.
Berlusconi was still very loyal to his frinds - especially in their times of need. Previti, Dell'Utri,etc, etc, etc. A friend in need - and all that. He even managed to find the time to save Emilio Fede from losing his job at Rete 4. Well, OK, so it saved Berlusconi a load of money and trouble by not having to convert Sport Italia into another, more legal vehicle for Fede's skills as a PR presenter and Berlusconi masseuse.
He even managed to push through changes to the constitution that reversed a previous attempt to "fair things up" a little. Just in the nick of time too. Oh, yes, then there was the Cirielli law and a few others that were of more general help to a great many honourable men that were of interest to him
I could go on, but the simple answer is; piffle. The problems with Berlusconi have got nothing to do with either right or left leaning politics. It is all about criminality and the abuse of power - no matter what the political hue of his audience. In fact, to conflate Berlusconi with politics, as we understand the term, is missing the point entirely of the political situation here.