9525 Help please for restoration

Personally no idea... I rent :-), but when you come to a new forum it's often a good idea to browse first. So get a nice bottle of chilled white (or a big pot of Assam ... you get the idea :winki:) and settle down for an hour or two to get a feel for the questions you should be asking.

You'll find some really obscure and detailed questions have been answered here, but yours is quite general. The prices you mentioned are about 1000 per sq. m, and that, if I recall correctly, seems quite cheap. Others will be along soon, although it is aperitivo hour... so I must dash. :-)

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89229] 20K!

I've tried 'agencies' but the quotes are astronomical (130K for full restoration). In total its about 120m2 but it is a beautiful location. Can anyone give a total nOOb some advice on what to do. Agencies seem to charge a lot for what they do but what do I know??

Perhaps I was ripped off and I should just give up (especailly as there are liveable houses for 70K in the area). Can anyone cheer me up??

[/quote]

Well if you do it you'll end up with basically a brand new home done to your tastes.

I went the other way. So far I've put in heating. I'm putting in a new kitchen setup. I've got various bits of minor work to do.

My total cost will be higher then the intial purchase. It'll look less eye popping then writing the check for a new build and I can take my time.

Basically, you are building a new house and as Sueflauto has said, restoration costs at 1,000 euros per sq metre (you are saying that you will end up with 120 metres) is quite cheap, so make sure that the quotes are correct before going ahead. What you have paid for is the land on which the ruin stands.... impossible to ascertain whether you have paid the right price or too much, it depends on location, etc. Renovation is as expensive - and sometimes more expensive - than building a new house. If your location is great... then, it may be worthwhile doing it. Do you have sufficient land to build a new house and leave the existing construction as a garage/storeroom/shed, etc? Oh, you do need to attend to the roof.... so it is going to cost you quite a bit of money....
Sorry, I cannot cheer you up as far as costs are concerned what you have to think at is whether they are going to be worth.
Have a nice glass of wine and think about it....
Best wishes,

Am I stupid to think that if you bought place as an uninhabitable wreck then renovation costs might have been part of your thinking ?
As Gala correctly points out.you have the opportunity to turn this into a lovely and wealth enhancing property.Work out what needs to be done ( plumbing,electricity, structure etc ) and then separate this from your ideal ( which appears unaffordable)
So my advice would be to find a good local geometrita and work out what can be done for what you can afford.If you paid less than 20k then there is no way you have been ripped off - Abruzzo is not that cheap !

avoid agencies and seek out a good architect rather than geometra as geometre are not really qualified to take on a major project like this.Unless you have something very special it may be best to start again with a new build.Have you seen any of the Grand design progs this week?Some good ideas for quick eco construction.
We are in Abruzzo too so please do send a pm for more help if needed.

Thanks for everyone's comments so far. I don't actually live in England so can't see TV progs unless they are broadcast in Middle East....

Lakeside : I did think about restoraton costs but I think I had vastly underestimated the problems (admin, agancies) involved...I am pretty naive when it comes to houses as I dont own one myself (unless you count the garage!!). I will take your advice with the geometra.

Gala: thanks for the costings...god I know nothing!!!

I did get a builder quote but I thought E14000 for plastering was a bit high for a 120m2 project and E8000 for floor tiling was a bit much so I kind of discarded the rest of the quote. I am I being stupid? Is this a sensible quote?

Plastering may be a bit high.... it all depends on the height of the ceilings. Floor tiling sounds OK, depending on the tiles specified. But it is hard to tell unless you have the specifications in front of you and you know what is required as far as scaffolding, etc. It would be worth spending a bit of money on professional help which may save you a lot in the long run... and a fortune on aspirin....
If the location is great, then go ahead, you can't be wrong if you keep costs under control. Be prepared to go through a lot of "why did I get involved in this?" through the renovation process, but it is an exhilarating experience.
Best wishes,

have a look at this: [url=http://www.latoca.co.uk/casa%20Metti.html]Casa Metti[/url]
the property was bought for €20.000 and the restoration costs, including all professional fees, water, gas and electricity connections, best of materials, were of €120.000.
I would say you should think of a cost of about €1600 per sqm for renovation. Of course it depends on the levels of quality you would like to achieve...
Get an Architect, get yourself drawings and specs then interview a few firms and compare prices...

Paola

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89229]I have recently bought a very small property in Abruzzo. Basically it is a garage with a hayloft and stables underneath. It isn't connected and needs a new roof....well it was under 20K!

I've tried 'agencies' but the quotes are astronomical (130K for full restoration). In total its about 120m2 but it is a beautiful location. Can anyone give a total nOOb some advice on what to do. Agencies seem to charge a lot for what they do but what do I know??

Perhaps I was ripped off and I should just give up (especailly as there are liveable houses for 70K in the area). Can anyone cheer me up??

I know next to nothing about building costs and restoration so assume you are talking to a complete idiot

Thanks in advance[/quote]

If the location is [I]that[/I] special you could think about buying a prefabricated Eco-house from one of the specialized suppliers, mostly in Germany & Scandinavia but also in Italy too. You could then either demolish the existing building or refurbish it, or part of it, later.
Restoration costs are often higher than new-build especially with some of the cost advantages of ICF or pre-fabricated building methods. Restoring a building will often dictate the materials & methods you have to use rather than those you might choose with an entirely free hand.

Once/if you have a progetto approved you may be able to get an Italian mortgage to finance your plan. Live nearby for a while & you might find craftspersons who won't normally work for stanieri will work for you when they get to know you. You will also learn the ropes about getting the property re-classified from "rurale" to "urban" if that proves necessary. You might care to register as a "IA" (farmer) if that would be advantageous to your position. You have lots of interesting stuff to learn & new friends to cultivate!
The research you do now will enable you to make the best decision later.
(I hope you are not in a hurry)

Good luck :yes:

Thanks again for the fabulous source of information. I've learned more in 3 hours than I learned over the past 8 months!!

If the cost for renovation is roughly OK and it is roughly 130K....I don't have that kind of money but I would have no problem paying in stages over say 5 years. Is this unrealistic? Is this the way it is done or do I have to go the mortgage route (which I really don't want to do unless I have to)?

The agency was organising quotes from a local bank for the costs and I really didn't know if this is the normal way for funding a restoration like this. Can anyone spread any light on this?

agree with a lot of the above although i do have reservations about the comments on geometra versus architect and just to confuse you more its not quite that simple and various threads on here will show that there is an argument for and against...well not just one ... lots of them... geometras or architects can be good or bad... the difference regarding geometras and qualifications is that there are geometras that are not qualified enough and there are those that are qualified to do new builds or restorations... i have seen many new houses constructed via geometras... some quite cutting edge and many restorations with total respect for the existing building and the use of sustainable and natural material in the project... so an open argument and i would take no firm statement by anyone on here...including myself as the only way forward....

your problems are several fold... first you bought a building not a house which will require heaps of certificates at the end of your project to allow you to live in it...

your quote if its for finished building with services and certificates of habitability included is almost cheap... but maybe not... prices suggested here are for ruin restoration work...if the walls are sound and the building is on good foundations the quote could be easily under the euro 1000 mark so without knowing your building...location...ie nearest electric pylons and water mains...ease of access and how far out in the countryside or not it is quite hard to say high or low as regards your quote...

the agencies route is one that is risky and not always good... but again things are never that simple... if you do not speak italian and are looking for an english speaking project manager/architect they can be quite as tricky to work with as any agency in respect of pricing to foreigners... i have seen geometrasarchitects here double prices to english clients with no agencies involved and also produce contracts with half the finishing work missing so that what looks like a good price ends up being not so good when walls are left bare and there is no driveway into the property.... a building works contract is even harder to correctly interpret than a house sales contract and is one where i would recommend the detail is checked carefully by someone that understands the terms

your caution over plastering work and the price quoted does not say the state of the walls.... and again plastering is not a simple thing to quote on...

for example a good Walls with good rendering already on it will be cheaper than say a wall where the builder first has to remove the loose materials and make good... and then depending on the structural integrity of your building he might well have to clad it in steel mesh and cover it with a couple of inches of cement to arrive at the point where he can plaster... even with a rough exterior plaster is often the final layer and a lime cement sand mix has been applied first to give a good fixing surface for the end plaster to be applied...

however even that should not be your first consideration...because you say the place needs a new roof and as it isn't a house it will definitely not have a seismic ring... so the roof should be to my mind your first concern... otherwise they could well be breaking your new plaster work maybe to fix in tying rods to pull the building in securely and at the top breaking the wall to tie in the new roof...

you also do not say where you are located in abruzzo.... many areas along the west of the appenines lie along major fault lines and require much higher levels of security in respect of seismic activity... ie the black areas... other have considerable problem with earth movement and the use of geologists is required in all new/full restoration works to test the ground around and below the building and if in the wrong location the use of deep reinforced concrete piles to stabilise the area and the building

so you pose an awfully wide question which i do not believe is answerable by any firm statements within the thread but is useful in opening up a discusion of the options,problems and joys of attempting what you are about to do...

finally to dispel a myth i know of houses ... habitable... for well below your suggested figure... and ok Italian decor and size of bathrooms might not be to everyone's taste...or even heating water with a back boiler fireplace.... but you can buy places that maybe do not look as good as a ruin... because the stonework has been plastered over or painted... but to my mind they offer solutions to the person buying a property here of a place to do things gradually and a much lower cost and often DIY type of work involving simple DIAs and they again to my mind offer to those on limited budgets with limited Italian and limited building experience the best way forward without exception as the least stressful way of buying property here... allowing work to be done gradually while still having a home to live in if your budget is tight... or allowing you to just get it all done as you want in a short time with much lower costs if you have the money available...

hopefully the above will be of some help... i suggest your best thing to do first is to sit back and think a bit more and as you are doing now ask lots of questions before agreeing to do anything

as others have said ... best of luck

in reply to your last bit... no a builder will generalley want paying as certain work is completed... and this is a complicated route...as they would be moving in plant and equipment over your suggested five year plan..... however i would let the agencie you are dealing with get the message that you really are not interested in taking any decisions and tell them to go away until you are ready.... as an agencie here we get banks offreing us percentages on these sorts of deals all the time and its an obvious area of income... i would suggest you take a familiar route and look at ways of approaching others that arrange these things , your own bank being a good start and see waht they figure out for you

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89229]I have recently bought a very small property in Abruzzo. Basically it is a garage with a hayloft and stables underneath. It isn't connected and needs a new roof.[/quote]
Adriatica says that you should give the roof priority for very good reasons, but I'll mention another factor which might support this decision.

It's not clear if you've been told that the place needs a new roof to meet the seisminc standards mentioned by Adriatica or if it needs a new roof because the present one is falling to bits or non-existant. If the roof needs work because it's in a bad state of repair and not weather-proof, I think your priority should be to see to this while you're thinking about what you want to do.

Once water penetrates a house, repair bills rapidly escalate, particularly in old Italian country houses where often all that holds the walls together is gravity, a primitive mortar (sometimes nothing more than soil, I understand) and the plaster coating on the outside. That method of construction produces walls that can last centuries, but only so long as there's a roof over them. Once water gets into the wall, the plaster falls off, the mortar washes away and the whole building turns into the sort of picturesque ruin one can see on every hillside in Abruzzo.

A relatively cheap tarpaulin and paying someone to attach it securely to the roof now could save you a whole lot of effort and money in the long-term.

If, however, the place needs a new roof because you now have no roof at all...:eerr:

Al

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89229]I have recently bought a very small property in Abruzzo. Basically it is a garage with a hayloft and stables underneath. It isn't connected and needs a new roof....well it was under 20K!

I've tried 'agencies' but the quotes are astronomical (130K for full restoration). In total its about 120m2 but it is a beautiful location. Can anyone give a total nOOb some advice on what to do. Agencies seem to charge a lot for what they do but what do I know??

Perhaps I was ripped off and I should just give up (especailly as there are liveable houses for 70K in the area). Can anyone cheer me up??

I know next to nothing about building costs and restoration so assume you are talking to a complete idiot

Thanks in advance[/quote]
HI,as has been said the first thing is to find a decent architect or geometra who will have to get permission from the local council to build.Do not think because there was a hay loft/garage that you can simply convert it into a house,this has to be approved up front and not always is easy or to be taken for granted as some councils in rural areas can be very strict on this.There will also be associated "urbanization costs" payable to the local council at some stage.Your arcitect will be able to get varios quotes on an itemized "computo metrico" for the various works to be done (ie. by square metre/by cubic metre/ a corpo/ and or by the day etc) the final restoration costs which will ( as has been said) probably end up somewhere between Euro 1200 -1500 per square metre of house so your quote is probably not far off if it includes roofs/plumbing/electrics/tiling/wall work/insulation/basic equipment boilers etc.

[quote=Sebastiano;89286]HI,as has been said the first thing is to find a decent architect or geometra who will have to get permission from the local council to build.Do not think because there was a hay loft/garage that you can simply convert it into a house,this has to be approved up front and not always is easy or to be taken for granted as some councils in rural areas can be very strict on this.There will also be associated "urbanization costs" payable to the local council at some stage.Your arcitect will be able to get varios quotes on an itemized "computo metrico" for the various works to be done (ie. by square metre/by cubic metre/ a corpo/ and or by the day etc) the final restoration costs which will ( as has been said) probably end up somewhere between Euro 1200 -1500 per square metre of house so your quote is probably not far off if it includes roofs/plumbing/electrics/tiling/wall work/insulation/basic equipment boilers etc.[/quote]
forgot to say that at that point you would have a fully (legally) habitable house at that point for around euro 160.000 which wouldn't get you a rabbit house in most of the country or just about a garage in Milano so it's in fact VERY cheap at the end of the day

Hmm in response to the status change of the property it was classified as rural but it was reclassified as urban during the sale so I'm hoping that won't be a problem.
The builders quote was including service connections so I guess its an OK quote then.

Its in San Pio between L'Aquilla and Popoli and is in a village on the side of a mountain valley overlooking the main valley between L'Aquilla and Popoli.

I think stage one probably is the roof . There is one but it needs to be replaced with new timber so maybe 20K.....

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89278]
If the cost for renovation is roughly OK and it is roughly 130K....I don't have that kind of money but I would have no problem paying in stages over say 5 years. Is this unrealistic? Is this the way it is done or do I have to go the mortgage route (which I really don't want to do unless I have to)?
[/quote]

It's pretty normal around here to do things in stages. People wait until they've got the money and then do the next stage. You can even save some money by letting the workers do the work when they aren't doing something that is more of a rush.

OTOH you'll need somebody local to supervise things. Some one you trust.

bear in mind that the builders are quoting you for service connection (ai to bring the services throughout the house) but you will still need to pay the acquedotto if you are not connected to it, gas and electricity. Acquedotto charges were for us €700, electricity €80 and gas €1000. These are fees ou pay to the different companies so builders would no include them in their quotations. add them up, though!

Paola

I know it's a bit off topic but I got rebuilding costs for UK property only yesterday for insurance purposes.It is similar £900 sq.m for detached bungalow in SW England.

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89289]....

I think stage one probably is the roof . There is one but it needs to be replaced with new timber so maybe 20K.....[/quote]

Don't even hesitate... your PRIORITY is the ROOF!

Hi my name is Steef can you tell where the property is
We can help when it is not to far we renovated propertys in the area of Pescara.
Regards Steef

[quote=ExpatAbroad;89229]I have recently bought a very small property in Abruzzo. Basically it is a garage with a hayloft and stables underneath. It isn't connected and needs a new roof....well it was under 20K!

I've tried 'agencies' but the quotes are astronomical (130K for full restoration). In total its about 120m2 but it is a beautiful location. Can anyone give a total nOOb some advice on what to do. Agencies seem to charge a lot for what they do but what do I know??

Perhaps I was ripped off and I should just give up (especailly as there are liveable houses for 70K in the area). Can anyone cheer me up??

I know next to nothing about building costs and restoration so assume you are talking to a complete idiot

Thanks in advance[/quote]

[quote=Gala Placidia;89301]Don't even hesitate... your PRIORITY is the ROOF![/quote]

It's only a PRIORITY if the WALLS are sound. :bigergrin:

Steef: Its in San Pio between Popoli and L'Aquilla. PM me if you want to take a look
Juliancoll: Agreed, walls need strengthening to support a new roof

Everyone: thanks for the huge amount of help. I have pretty much decided to go ahead with the plans for renovation over a 5/6 year period. Am in contact with architect and builder and will visit beginning of July.
Let me know via PM if you will be in the area at that time and I'll buy you a beer/wine...heres hoping everything pans out

[quote=juliancoll;89372]It's only a PRIORITY if the WALLS are sound. :bigergrin:[/quote]... and the foundations, don't forget!

:winki:

[quote=Nardini;89413]... and the foundations, don't forget![/quote]
Foundations? :eerr:

In an Italian house? :nah:

:laughs:

Al

[quote=AllanMason;89424]Foundations? :eerr:

In an Italian house? :nah:

:laughs:

Al[/quote]

I agree......not much to worry about.....as they are not there

We had a new roof put on (5mx5m approx) for 15,000 Euro. Make sure they do a traditional roof not a modern concrete one; this happened to friends of ours and they had to have steel ties to hold the walls and ended up underpinning the building.

Yes, but bear in mind, also, that a restored 'traditional' roof may still require a steel mesh and concrete screed between the inner and outer coppi, as well as reinforcement to walls and foundations. It depends on local anti seismic requirements and the state of the existing walls and foundations, as explained in the previous contributions to this thread.

You are just right Lupo, we had all of this when we restored our apartment, not to mention the "igloos" in the foundations and the concrete pillars within the foundations, a belt and braces job, but I am happy to see that the building is correct and safe and meets regulations.
As someone has said before Marche is very strict on buildind regs, which coming from a building and housing background, can for me only be a good thing
A

up here in Le Marche €1,000 - €1,300 per m2 is about right, the pre-fab eco option sounds well worth looking at. I highly recommend if you do build that you do underfloor heating and solar panels. Most people thoroughly underestimate how cold it is here in winter. My panels and underfloor should pay for themselves in 5-7 years (depending on the weather!).
Presumably with such a bargain you are in south Abruzzo.
Best of luck.