9534 Where do you draw the line?

Simple solution!, everybody pays rent, then no hard feelings, I would imagine you are running the place as a buisness, I wouldnt expect friends to provide a service for free, and dont think that they should expect you to either, I may be a mean old Scrooge and you may wish to do "mates rates" but if you charge at least everyone is treated equally and there is no room for misunderstanding or resentment.
A

I agree. It avoids problems in your day to day life.

At best, give a works discount.

I would agree with Angie.
Friends have a house, not rented out commercially, but they allow family and friends to use it when they are not there. They charge everyone a token rent of a few hundred pounds - this means all bills and other expenses (utilites, cleaning etc) are covered so they do not make a loss but also the family /friends still end up with a cheap holiday so everyone is happy.
If you also intend to rent out the house commercially then I would be inclined to charge family/friends the normal rate or offer a slight discount if if means they are stopping you from renting it out commercially - business is business! They could alway stay at a token rate out of season or if there is a last minute vacancy.
I think the key is to have one policy for all and to be consistent!

Forget whether you know them via work or not, they are either friends or colleages & the distinction should be very clear in your head. If they're just colleagues, vet them carefully and charge them; if they're friends, don't charge (and ensure they keep schtum about the freebie if chatting around the water cooler).

Personally, I never rent my holiday home at all because (in order)

1. My house is in a small community where the locals have been overwhelmingly friendly & helpful to me. I would not disrespect my neighbours by dumping a succession of strangers on their doorstep whose idea of a holiday may be wildly different from mine, and who could easily ruin my position with my neighbours by noisy/rude behaviour (intentional or just due to language barrier). Put yourself in your neighbour's shoes ... would you like a succession of Brit's coming & going on holiday next door, unable to communicate and probably having a boisterous time on their week off work? OK as a one off, but run 8 weeks of that back to back over the summer months (when everyone wants to be outdoors enjoying their own property) and your neighbours may not be too amused. Unless you pay your Italian neighbours for gardening, key holding, cleaning etc. already OR your holiday home is in a tourist place (i.e. flats on the coast or something similar) I'd consider this aspect very carefully.

2. The most important word in "holiday home" is "home" - just cos I'm not there all the time doesn't stip me feeling very proprietorial about my personal space.

3. I don't want anyone else using it unless I know & like them well enough to gladly offer it for free - if you are charging for rental of a place you are emotionally attached to, then trust me, it [B]will[/B] eventually end in tears. I've been renting out several quality furnished UK properties for 10 years and there is no end to the ways in which a tenant will amaze you by their actions (and not often in a good way). Most recent example being a 12 stone girl who spent 6 months walking on the hardwood floors in high heels (despite being specifically warned of this on day 1) and was surprised when I pointed out the damage - the floor looked like the surface of the moon after she'd finished with it. Result - £400 retention from deposit, followed by stand up argument with hefty girl's father over whether this was just "youthful naivety" (she was 25 and in full time employment, FFS!!). I don't mind that hassle on a commercial basis ... but it sure would sour my appreciation of my holiday home if it gave me that kind of experience.

4. The rent recieved won't make you rich. If you are renting the house on a paid basis, the gardening, security, cleaning, utilities etc. costs required to do this properly would quickly eat up any profit, but you still need to account for the income (if you're honest or want to sleep easy) and that is a pain. If you hope to rent it out without having these kind of services laid on for the paying guests, you'd better hope that the guests are (a) understanding (b) self reliant (c) trustworthy (will they remember to turn off the DHW on the caldaio? will they isolate the utilities when they leave? etc. etc.

I know this is quite a cynical view, but you did ask! Of course, many people get away with renting out their holiday place to cover the expenses of having it, and never have any problems with tenants, neighbours or the property itself.

Do you feel lucky, punk? :wideeyed::smile:

I'm not sure you have to take a business view, but you might want to consider that there are genuine costs in having the house in use and these vary depending on the season/no. of people etc. We've allowed friends to stay in our house for free, but when friends took their family out during one February, they did pay for their use of heating oil as it's so expensive to run the central heating (they also replaced a lot of firewood they'd used). As I remember it they were really worried that they were not paying us enough, but then we don't really do it on a commercial basis.

I have subsequently had a couple of enquiries from other colleagues which so far have not been followed up, but I would possibly charge them something (or not) without feeling too worried about being rigidly consistent.

Hi
I agree with the above sentiments.

Holiday accommodation if a business should be kept strictly for business.

In our five years here we now only let our cottages to paying guests and the friends and family we want to stay, stayin our part of the house, a section we haven't completely renovated yet. There's a new bathroom, and the rest is warm,clean and dry.

We had one very uncomfortable time (which put a considerable strain on our relationship)when a good friend of my partner 'rented' a cottage for a very nominal amount when we first started renting. They thought they were doing us a favour!! They left it so so so dirty + damage, worse than any paying guest would dream of doing and it just sort of sticks in the gullet when 'friends' take the p*ss!!

A big also... when you do have a rental/holiday home overseas you discover that so many people find it no trouble at all to fix up flights, sometimes car hire (when they dont expect you to ferry them around) when it was so difficult to visit you an hour away when living in the uk.

The hospitality also seems to be very oneway! Everybody wants to come to Tuscany but we have no inclination to spend more time in the UK than is strictly necessary to keep up with family etc.

As you can see you touched a nerve....

The small village where my house is located is dying and is down to about 350 (or less) people. Having responsible renters come for a visit from time to time does not seem to be a major inconvenience for the locals. A couple may grumble under their breath but most say that it enriches their lives since they will likely never get the opportunity to visit Australia and now they have the chance to meet a few people from that area and (vicariously) get to know their country a bit. The owner of the small mercato and the bar are definitely happy to have a bit more business. It costs a bit to keep things tidy and keep the place up so when friends ask to use the place I have them kick in a token amount for the ongoing expenses. If I was going to stay at a friend's vacation home I would want to do the same...

[URL="http://villacasale.net/"]Bidetless Abruzzo[/URL]

[quote=stefanaccio;89357]The small village where my house is located is dying and is down to about 350 (or less) people. Having responsible renters come for a visit from time to time does not seem to be a major inconvenience for the locals. A couple may grumble under their breath but most say that it enriches their lives since they will likely never get the opportunity to visit Australia and now they have the chance to meet a few people from that area and (vicariously) get to know their country a bit. The owner of the small mercato and the bar are definitely happy to have a bit more business. It costs a bit to keep things tidy and keep the place up so when friends ask to use the place I have them kick in a token amount for the ongoing expenses. If I was going to stay at a friend's vacation home I would want to do the same...

[URL="http://villacasale.net/"]Bidetless Abruzzo[/URL][/quote]

I guess this is mainly a response to my post? Agreed that "responsible renters" present no great problem & will contribute to to local shop/bar economy. But my original response was to the question of renting to colleagues as opposed to friends/family, and I don't think you've responded in kind?

if, as the OP postulates, you start renting to colleagues as opposed to just friends/family, they won't all be "responsible renters" ... you may know and get on well with Sarah in accounts, but do you know her husband & teenage kids?...

Moving on to (re)address your own points - even in your scenario where it's responsible friends & a peppercorn rent, and they spend some cash locally, for me personally there is still a real issue.

My neighbours (i.e. the people directly adjacent to my property, within sight/earshot) do counless favours for me. They keep a stern eye on the place, on the basis that anyone attempting entry who is not me, my geometra, the local plumber/electrician ... or my direct family (whom they've met & recognise) is likely up to no good and needs to be challenged.

They keep the large garden "tamed" while we're not there (using a 10 horsepower lawnmower ... i.e. 10 horses!!). Nonna tends to the olives & fruit trees. We try to pay them for all this effort, but except where they've had to bring in machinery (to cut the grass on a steeply sloped area), they refuse point blank.

When there is a problem or a bit of DIY that requires a fancy tool etc., they are first port of call. They bring over surplus fruit or fresh veg in season from their orto; Despite knowing that we now have a fully functional kitchen in our place, they still always invite us to eat in their house with them whenever we're over there.

Anything beyond flyers & junk mail, they take from the postman for safe keeping and hand deliver to us next visit. If it looks urgent/official, they call us in UK and, if we wish, open it on our behalf.

I could go on (and on, and on), but you get the picture. They do all of this partly because they like to be neighbourly, also because we have made a real effort to communicate with them as best we can, but primarily (I hope) because they appreciate that our heart is in the house/community and we plan to spend much more time there when we are able.

Not everyone would want or even like that level of neighbourly attention ... but for me it's one of the main positives about Italy & I would never want to look that gift horse in the mouth by sending a succession of foreign strangers to live in my place when I wasn't around, leaving my vicini to like it or lump it.

It's very much an individual thing ... my place is 45 minutes from Rome, and the people, despite living a rural lifestyle, are fairly cosmopolitan in outlook, so there is little or no benefit to them in exposing them to a stream of Foreign visitors. I take your point about a dying village benefiting from an influx of people/cash, no matter the source ... but I see that as a short term benefit at best and my views are very much based on the long term.

As Aretina said, this subject "touches a nerve" with me, as it goes straight to the heart of why I bought the house and why I settled on my particular location. Final point though, I have no problems whatsoever in running an open house for friends ... as long as I'm there simultaneously (to ensure it goes well for me, my friends, and my neighbours). I know this post will inevitibly sound earnest & preachy ... not my intention, but I know what I have in Italy, I'm hugely grateful for it, and I will at all costs avoid jeapordising it.

Some people might see this as a bit harsh, But in our case we dont want anybody going to the house, friends or family!, as in our experience once word gets out you have somewhere abroad every man and his dog approaches you with coments such as ' Yeah i think we will go out later in the year' and 'how much are the flights we could do with a cheap holiday' and they are usually friends of friends or people from work who you hardly know. The amount of times we have stood there in disbelief thinking how cheeky these people are you would not believe. ( And once they have gone, absolutly wet ourselves laughing) As for Mothers and Fathers, Brothers and Sisters etc they are only aloud out there when we go at the same time, but believe me this to can lead to trouble when the next thing you know people they have shown their photos to, want the number/ e-mail of your estate agent so they can go out and steal your find, your friends, your tradesmen and generally think they can make a quick buck. We currently have about three wanabee suitors coverting our small village.The very fact we spent time and effort finding a nice property in a nice location and doing it up just how we imagined it is the hardest bit to swallow.Enough said !!!

I think I am with pigro with this one my home in Italy is my home and is lovely to return to just as we left it. Having said that we have a little dipendenza offering simple clean accomodation to selected guests for a modest sum which if I were to do a proper profit-loss calculation would probably be daft, however it is nice to share our happiness in this lovely spot and a bit of company does no harm.

I think that for some people renting out the property is their only option to cover exorbitant renovations (that were supposed to cost 10p). I'm lucky enough to be in Italy full time & my experience & that of my friends is that friends of friends, work colleagues & accquaintances are always the worst (as someone else has said). We let out one of our (brand new) apartments to one of my brothers friends and his family and they broke the toilet (twice) there were fingerprints all over the wall, blood all over a towel (it never came out) and the place was full of sand. Coupled with the experience of giving a very good rate to a distant relative of my husband's who kept complaining they were cold (while wearing shorts & Tshirt) and not paying for extra wine they took I am afraid we have become very hard hearted. Only the closest family & friends now get a free ride (despite the fact that we have suddenly started receiving Christmas cards from people we forgot existed & are not even sure how they found us)

[quote=HelenMW;89606]................. I am afraid we have become very hard hearted. Only the closest family & friends now get a free ride,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[/quote]

For us - only son and daughter get free use of the house, when we don't want it - everyone else 'makes a contribution' - even my brother and brother-in-law [though theirs may be a little smaller].

Invited guests, who visit with us [at our invite] get it free. Guests of the kids pay

[Mind you, its such small sums that it's not that important - but it pays the ICI and tarsi, if we're lucky]

.

Sorry Alan - read that wrong first time and thought you'd said "kids of the guests pay". Which actually strikes me as an excellent wheeze. The younger they are - they more they should pay.

Hi HelenMW

I agree this type of guest can be a real pain in the bottom, and not only that, what was a reasonably amicable/mutual friendship/acquantanceship will be threatened if not broken.
And as said before the hospitality, when you are in Italy etc. always seems to be oneway.

I'm sure I am repeating myself but some friends and family are so much more difficult than regular paying guests. Why do these 'friends' (not the closest but ones you feel awkward refusing) always take the p+ss! With paying guests there is no emotional attachment and no need to service their every waking moment.

This sounds really bad, we do have friends and family to stay but the good guys always know how to behave.

One set, seventh trip here (this trip for a week),,, yes seventh..... gave me a receipt for the teabags they had kindly broght from the UK and offered me the Prada coathanger/paper shop bag as a 'going away' gift. What we do for partner's friends....

This is our 'job' we work hard at it, but the above 'friends' seem to think we are on holiday all the time. How many of them would a) if pensions manager - manage my pension for free. b) finanacial advisor - advice for free I doubt it. c) doctor - free surgery.... again I doubt it.

This did hit a nerve... but looking forward to a quieter Summer this year with lovely paying guests and friends and family that we actually invite not those who invite themselves.

[quote=annec;89608]Sorry Alan - read that wrong first time and thought you'd said "kids of the guests pay". Which actually strikes me as an excellent wheeze. The younger they are - they more they should pay.[/quote]

Whoever said "kids go free" was mad - guests are guest - however small they are, they still use hot water, gas, electric etc [and possibly more so]

Really agree with Aretinas comments, all our paying guests have been wonderful, and have all cleaned our apartment before they left and one charming young couple sent us a Fortum and Mason hamper as a thank you present.
None paying relatives who were happy to come for free have been very silent re their holiday plans this year after discovering there would be a charge.Emotional detatchment is obviously the key to profitable and amicable visitors.
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