9557 Can Berlusconi save Italy?

Interesting to see the comment he has just made.........
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/1952815/Silvio-Berlusconi-Italy-needs-God%27s-help.html]Silvio Berlusconi: Italy needs God's help - Telegraph[/url]

So I take it from the article that Berlo's standing by his commitment to scrap ICI?

Given the many thousands an average family pays in property tax, that step alone will obviously reinvigorate the economy.

:nah:

As for the rest, well, since he's apparently put himself in The Lord's hands, I can guess who he'll suggest is [I]really[/I] to blame if things go the way the usually do here. :wideeyed:

Al

[quote]Can Berlusconi save Italy? [/quote]

Should that not be."can Italy be saved from Berlusconi":nah:

Well I'm no expert but if he scraps ici he will presumably have to raise money some other way , or reduce govt spending. Personally I don't have a problem with paying ici as it is a fraction of the amount I paid in Council Tax in UK. I assume much of the communes finances come from central govt ? ( our commune has only 800 residents so most of the money must come from somewhere else ). If he scraps ici he will have to put up central govt taxes. At least everyone has to pay ici. With income tax some get away with paying very little ( self employed ) others ( those on whatever the equivalent of PAYE is ), have to the full whack ,which is high to make up for all the people who don't pay. Nobody likes paying tax, but it works best if it is fair. As regards Berlusconi's ability to sort out the countries problems ( including the above mentioned problems of tax) I can only say that he didn't seem to do anything too spectacular last time round .

[quote=AllanMason;89522]So I take it from the article that Berlo's standing by his commitment to scrap ICI?

Given the many thousands an average family pays in property tax, that step alone will obviously reinvigorate the economy.[/quote]

:nah:

[quote=AllanMason;89522]As for the rest, well, since he's apparently put himself in The Lord's hands, I can guess who he'll suggest is [I]really[/I] to blame if things go the way the usually do here.

Al[/quote]

:wideeyed:

Sort out Italy? Have you seen whats going on in Naples since a 16 year old Rom girl has been accused of trying to kidnap a 6 month old baby a few days ago?

Italys net average disposable income per capita is half the UKs ($19k as opposed to $37k) and Italy are 19th out of 20 (behind both Greece and Turkey) in terms of income after tax for the top industrialiased nations on the planet. That is pretty damning reading when we all know that prices are going through the roof and the cost of living is now not much lower than the UK.

Unfortunately, I feel that the difference between the haves and the have nots is enormous and that there are many people living hand to mouth existences.

The following maligns of the country are quite apparent and need to be addressed- but perhaps a fascist- populist doesnt have the balls for it;
1) beaurocracy
2) inefficient processes and procedures
3) the above reducing productivity per capita
4) lack of inbound investment (how many foreign businesses site their factories here)
5) The absence of any economy of scale
6) The lack of innovation
7) Unwillingness to change

I could go on, but feel that some Italy's charm for visitors is it quaintness, the number of artisans and the existence of small local shops is unfortunately hamstringing it and a balance must be found.

Italy needs to adapt to survive in the global market place, focus on quality and style. Radical measures are needed (similar to those that dragged the UK up by its bootlaces after the 70s).

If people are redeployed and perform efficiently in jobs that actually add value then hopefully they will be remunerated appropriately and that will kick start a new Italian future

[quote=damiano;89562]Italys net average disposable income per capita is half the UKs [/quote]

That should be 'declared' net average disposable income.

[quote]If people are redeployed [U][I]and perform efficiently[/I][/U] in jobs that actually add value then hopefully they will be remunerated appropriately and that will kick start a new Italian future[/quote]

Well said! IMHO this is one of the keys to the malaise here... The average Italian feels little or no need to be productive simply because there is little or no chance of 'losing' their jobs...

Italy is NOT productive. How can they compete with many countries in Europe - let alone those from the east unless they change this attitude?

But you are also right regarding remuneration. If you pay peanuts, we all know what you get! When Italy took up the insidious 'agency staffing' approach to work the rot began to set in - profit became the god - at ANY cost!!! And look where it has got them... As a country Italy is on it's knees - ruled by factions that are still like something out of the feudal system. Ruled by politicians- many of whom have no right to hold office and should instead be 'banged up' for years! Ruled by a church that for centuries has expected to be obeyed by all, and that considers itself more important than the souls it looks after.

I love Italy so much - but I despair at the apathetic complaints and their constant "But it's ALWAYS been like this" - [U]WELL NO IT HASN'T!!![/U] That's what they need to accept if they want to return their country to it's former glory...

The workers need to give a fair days work for a fair day's pay, and SO many do not!
[U]BUT[/U]
Equally - the employers need to give a fair days pay in the first place - and practically NONE do!.

Of course these couple of points are barely the tip of the Italian malaise iceberg... and who knows if the new (seeming) air of co-operation between the parties will finally start to bring a sense of hope to the poplulace? A pretty tall order, but one which must be faced up to I think - the sense of co-operation must be seen at ALL levels.

Sorry about the vent :sad:... I'll get off the soapbox now!

[quote=Carole B;89567]The average Italian feels little or no need to be productive simply because there is little or no chance of 'losing' their jobs...[/quote]

I think that's a big over-generalisation Carole. Whilst it may be true of many employees in the state sector and some in industry, it is certainly not true of the many small businesses that form the heart of the Italian economy. I'm always impressed by how hard-working and enterprising most of these Italians are. Of course, many of them are are starving the state of funds by under-declaring their income. As always, money is a big motivating factor in human industriousness!

Damiano's post presents an interesting conundrum for many of us on here ... I found my self broadly agreeing with every individual point he made, but after I got to the end of the post, my head was filled with a horrible preminition of Italy as yet another grey, dull, market driven economy with no room left for slow paced small concerns whose workers actually have time & skills to perform their role on a human level, safe in the knowledge that if they work to a decent standard, they are likely to have job security, job satisfaction and a living wage.

I mean, I [I]want[/I] a cheap bank account without the stupidly high overheads, but OTOH I appreciate going into my branch and seeing staff there who can deal with me individually and who still have a lunch break ,as opposed to calling a call centre in Albania or somewhere to query a transaction.

I [I]want[/I] to have the local plumber, electrician etc. mobile numbers programmed into my phone and for them to recognise me by name when I call - I shiver at the thought of calling a 'green number' from the pagine gialle and being connected to some anonymous guy who hits me with a call out charge on arrival and then spends time on the meter acquainting himself with the pipe runs of a house he's never seen before and does a half arsed repair (cos he'll never see it again).

I [I]want[/I] the local bar to remain friendly and busy and to be run by the same family through the generations - the thought of it being re-themed every 5 years and starting quiz nights, karaoke and happy hours in order to maximise footfall at quiet times is anathema to me.

I'm sure most of you know where I'm coming from - many of the quaint, oldy worldy things we love about being in Italy (because they remind us of how things were & how we think they still should be) are the very same things that are holding back its economic progress.

However, if these matters were addressed systematically throughout society, Italy would be left as another pale imitation of American corporate culture, and the personal glue holding society together would start to weaken over time, just as it has in the UK and other countries who have bought too deeply into consumer culture ... and if we're honest, aren't many of us fleeing to Italy precisely to avoid living in such societies?

I don't have the answers I'm afraid, but they are important questions ... economic progress/prosperity vs. state protectionism and preservation of an archaic and corrupt system which tacitly preserves the traditional societal structure.

You'd normally think there was a 'happy medium' for progress but my view is that shaking up the economy sufficiently to actually initiate permanent cultural change creates a runaway train (with institutional investors & speculators as the only brakeman) that can't really be stopped once it's picked up sufficient momentum.

In short, I'm a bit of a NIMBY when it comes to the kind of economic reform that would really be required to address the big problems with Italian industry.

I don't suppose it's a solution but an observation nonetheless - there are simply far too many people in the world. They are consuming too much of the finite resources, and requiring too big a public infrastructure to support their needs.

Think water, oil, forest, staple food crops; think siting of new conurbations on flood plains, earthquake zones, consider the placement of new golf courses all over the arid parts of the med/middle east/north africa ...

population & it's associated infrastructure need to be pegged back over time to sustainable levels, in a model where people can return to a more "cottage industry" type lifestyle (living mainly in places which are geographically conducive to settlement; working close to where they live; supporting & sustaining their local communities by theiur physical and economic presence; replacing commuting time with time spent growing some of what they eat in their own ground etc. etc.). That doesn't mean going back to mud huts & barter based economy, you can easily deploy a high tech/finance/service teleconomy to a decentralised model these days if the political will is there and companies are suitably incentivised.

I know this is more "pie in the sky" than "blue sky" thinking - it wouldn't work convincingly unless it was implemented globally (tell that to China/India...) and I have no idea how you would ethically reduce populations by the amount required to make this work (well, I do, but this post is out of control already!)

Anyway, the point for me is that what I just described above (with the partial exception of the teleconomy bit) is not dissimilar to the lifestyle that I see my own Italian neighbours actually leading today, hence my selfish choice to locate there.

I'm not saying that all of Italy has that rosy glow - far from it, I understand that I live in a fairly affluent area and that there is real deprivation, poverty etc. in the big cities and in the south.

I guess all I'm saying (in my long winded way) is that the baby mustn't be thrown out with the bathwater when the economic/political change that we all know is required eventually comes.

[quote=damiano;89562]Italys net average disposable income per capita is half the UKs ($19k as opposed to $37k) and Italy are 19th out of 20 (behind both Greece and Turkey) in terms of income after tax for the top industrialiased nations on the planet. That is pretty damning reading when we all know that prices are going through the roof and the cost of living is now not much lower than the UK.

4) lack of inbound investment (how many foreign businesses site their factories here)
5) The absence of any economy of scale
[/quote]

Those numbers are so tainted I can't imagine using them for any reason other then political.

What's a tax? Is a users fee a tax?

Service levels? If you live in a country that provides less services and you need to buy these with "after" tax dollors are you better off?

Hidden taxes? If you rent and the council tax is buried in the rent are you paying tax? Or rent?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita]List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Why not use per capita GDP? :veryconfused:

Why would anybody put a plant in the Euro zone? Stick it in Vietnam. With the engineers in India.

Economies of scale? Stick it in China and let them pump out the copies.

It's 2008. The problem is guys like Berlusconis think like you. Italy needs to be small and nimble. Economies of scale just mean running on the treadmill trying to stay ahead of the cheap labour provided by the far east. It's at best a dead end road.

Italy needs to be creative. It needs to protect it's IP.

You can start a factory to copy almost anything virutally overnight. Soon enough Germany is going to find out how well the Chinese can make things. High end Japanese [and UK,US] companies are already feeling the pain from China.

ICI is smoke and mirrors. 40% of Italians already were off the rolls by Prodi's 100 Euro change. Many of the others would have stopped paying ICI when the second 100 Euros kicked in this year.

actually, if oil costs keep rising (and it's looking like they probably will) then the cost of transporting components/materials to far east manufacturers and shipping finished goods the other may actually make it more economic for the west to start investing again in more local manufacturing. Not sure at what price per barrel the tipping point would be, but something to consider ... would certainly be a shot in the arm to western economies facing recession?

The other way I bet. If you start with Aussie Iron ore and other materials. Why ship the raw materials and waste to the West? Better to do all the work close to source and ship finished goods instead.

I'm still wondering at what point the Saudis etc refuse to ship crude oil. Build their own refineries and sell only finished goods.

don't panic about the Saudi's holding us to ransom - I also read the other day that some bright sparks have cracked the practicalities of recycle old PCB's (printed circuit boards and other toxic plastics) to recover industrial fuel oil from them ...
[url=http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/13/printed_circuit_boards_into_bio_oil/]Romanian and Turkish scientists turn circuit boards into oil | The Register[/url]

... mind you, it doesn't say where the fuel required to sustain the pressure/heat for the process will come from :laughs: and of course the process would only be viable with crude oil at or above current prices.

On second thoughts, do panic!

[quote=damiano;89562]Italys net average disposable income per capita is half the UKs ($19k as opposed to $37k) and Italy are 19th out of 20 (behind both Greece and Turkey) in terms of income after tax for the top industrialiased nations on the planet. [/quote]

Could we have a source for this please? I've tried to Google for it without success. And I'd like to look at the original figures and the assumptions behind them.

bosco

i think you will find most of these listed on the eurostat sites but they do take a bit of finding... they are commonly reported figures both on newspapers and television here ... so i don't think there is much doubt about them as a reported fact here in Italy anyway... however as with all stats there are various ways of looking at them and a million different ways to add them up

[url=http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page?_pageid=1090,30070682,1090_33076576&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL]EUROPA - Eurostat - Home page[/url]

its also somewhat predictive because italy is very slow with supplying figures so they are often computed on the past ...as are all but even further from the past in the case of Italy.. below is supposed to be the key facts and figures for the europe zone...

[url=http://europa.eu/abc/keyfigures/qualityoflife/wealthy/index_en.htm#chart9]EUROPA - Key facts and figures about Europe and the Europeans - Quality of life - How wealthy are Europeans?[/url]

anyway maybe you can wade your way through this lot and find an answer...

however i find pigros worries and conclusions far more interesting and i guess in a sense find his worries and concerns more in line with my thinking over economies... and ways of life...

i believe though that balance is and can be achieved and that if you make local produce, local artisans and local commerce a profitable way of life for the young that rural local life will continue... because the way things are now i see most of what we appreciate about the Italian life going out the window with an older generation that is dying out... because the young see no future... not talking about very young...people with children and a wish to have a family home where they were brought up and to be able to carry on with their small farm whilst holding down a job...or to run their parents bar or shop and make a living are just not able to and are having to move away for work...

italy has just had the most repressive two years of tax on small business and artisans ever ... and many have not survived not only the levels of taxation but the complication of all the new forms and declarations... the paperwork... hopefully this is about to change as in a political sense leaving out leaders ...the party now in charge is much more representative of the small business sector and Italy basically survives off these as a nation... the party before has always been more to do with employed workers via the unions and their strategies have in the past favoured that area...

if one thing has now come out of this vote and this new political scene...its the move of the workers away from the party political concept to the regional federalist concept... and if anything held or holds italy back as much as crime and corruption its the old values of extreme communism/marxism... which finally seems to be defeated both from within the left and in the country in general ...although weeding it out of the local political system will take a lot longer

which is really why i have faith in the future of Italy and that it can follow a path which will allow pigros vision to sit side by side with local wealth because Italys wealth is in its production of Italian brands from high tech gadgets to hams... and that places like france say have been running their economies on the concept of local life and anti globalisation for a fair while now .. taking the bits they want and protecting themselves against those they don't ... despite european free trade ..

just read though the above and its a bit of a rambling post ... even more than usual... sometimes its a problem for me as you might have noticed from the past.. however will click the submit button anyway as i dont think i have insulted anyone ... and there are some vague points within though not very well presented....

[quote=adriatica;89661]
just read though the above and its a bit of a rambling post ... even more than usual... [/quote]
perhaps we (you & I) should start a competition :-)

[quote=adriatica;89661]bosco

i think you will find most of these listed on the eurostat sites but they do take a bit of finding... they are commonly reported figures both on newspapers and television here ... so i don't think there is much doubt about them as a reported fact here in Italy anyway.[/quote]

Thanks very much indeed for trying, Adriatica. But the source of the original claim (which I only record ever seeing in Berlusconi election material) is not in Eurostat. Turkey would not in any case normally appear in EU statistics.

The only [U]disposable[/U] income table I can find in Eurostat dates from 2003, and puts Italy as having the second HIGHEST disposable income per private household in the whole of the European Union, exceeded only by Germany and just exceeding the UK. (Luxembourg is not in the table, though that country usually ranks very high on such measures.)
[url=http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page?_pageid=1073,46587259&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&p_product_code=KS-DN-03-007]EUROPA - Eurostat - Eurostat: Document Details sw3d[/url]

Of course, 'by household' is not 'per capita'. But the disparity with the original claim is interesting.

As an aside, the position of Greece in the table [U]is[/U] rather higher than I would have expected - but those who know Greece will suspect that a relative lack of public expenditure on roads, transport , the national health service and other infrastructure might go some way to explain this. Countries like Sweden, with admirable public health, life expectancy and public services, and with what some might regard as a high quality of life, always appear very low down indeed on comparative measures of disposable income.

We take our political choice (or have it thrust upon us).

The fix is actually easier to then its made out to be. Afterall, Italy can draw on the experience of other EU nations and adopt the policies that seem to be working the best.

Personally I would:
1) Adopt the British system of law. Things happen faster and you are accountable. This would stick lots of people in jail and make an example not o do it again.
2) Adopt UK employment law. Again, not perfect, but a big step forward. Free labour would be ruled out and so would these endless contracts that never arrive.
It would also benifit the employer as you could sack people for not doing their job.
Nepetism would also become a sackable offense.
3) Business - Streamline the system and make it as easy as possible to set one up. This is where new jobs and emerging companies come from.
4) Encourage foreign companies - Italy puts up barriers to entry against foreign companies (as it would be competition for the ruling class - I have personally seen it happen and it cost Italy 150 new jobs on that single occaission).
5) Forze Italia should sack Berlusconi - When a man is more powerful then his party then the system is rotten. An easy way to introduce this is to limit the number of terms that a person could be in power.
6) Reduce Taxes - This is really easy.....a) come down hard on the perks of governmental employees and place all claims in the public domain. People can be charged for unjust claims. Allow claims to be reviewed historically. b) Reduce the number of public employees - Use another country as reference and state 'We cannot have more public employees then UK/France/?

The situation is hard as all this is under the control of the Italian Ruling/Political class. So instead of directing the effort at the source of the problem, the people should be directing pressure on the EU to intervene. Surely the EU must have some laws on abuse of power? It can't all be about the curve in bananas!

[quote=bosco;89689]Of course, 'by household' is not 'per capita'. But the disparity with the original claim is interesting. [/quote]

The problem with this statistic is that you have the children still at home in their late thirties. If the information comparable then.........lies, damns lies and statistics.:bigergrin:

Its a bit like the unemployment rate. People don't bother to register as its not worth it. They study for 10 years longer. They work for free after completing their studies (6 years for some!). They work without contract. If only the real figure was known. I would guess that Italy has one of the worst 'real' unemployment rates in the EU.:eeeek:

[quote=nigelaxis;89696]The problem with this statistic is that you have the children still at home in their late thirties. If the information comparable then.........lies, damns lies and statistics.:bigergrin:[/quote]

I agree absolutely that household composition makes the two sets of statistics impossible to compare directly (though at least one set definitely exists and can be examined in detail). But this does not solve my question about the source of the original statistics (if in fact they do exist) which have been given credence by the 'People of Liberty'.

One of my problems with those statistics is that the quoted figure for Italian disposable income per capita is higher than the GDP per capita for Turkey (on 2006 GDP figures which are the latest I've found). Yet the original statistics are supposed to show that Turkey has a higher disposable income than Italy per capita. Very strange. Is there no tax at all in Turkey, and a subsidy from elsewhere?

And what are all these other 'industrialised countries' to which Italy is supposedly so inferior? How many small oil states are included, for example?

If I may first just answer the original question; no. There is as much chance of Berlusconi (or indeed, anyone on the political horizon at the moment) saving Italy as of pigs flying.

Now, a little more seriously, if I may. Perhaps the biggest problem that faces the majority of stranieri when it comes to trying to analyse the political situation in Italy is that they invariably start by comparing Italy to wherever it is they come from originally. That kind of analysis will never work in a country that is so different in both the legal system and also the way in which politics are viewed here.

Italy has had a very difficult birth - in point of fact, it has had several "births" if one is to try to look for the causes of the problems here. There are many books written, objectively, on the history of Italy and are well worth taking the time to read if one is really interested in the subject - the subject being Italy here, of course.

It is just too easy to take some little snippets of information and try to weave them into a story - a disposable story. The kind of story that sells newspapers and double glazing, that is.

Italians have long had to find a way to survive during times of foreign rule. It is this ability to survive on an individual, or rather a family, basis with no real regard to state or government that still shapes the way that things happen here. It isn't the same sort of "I'm all right Jack" view that is often found in the UK cultures - or even the US culture - because, quite simply, there is no real sense of being a single country to bind people together in a way that we would recognise in ourselves.

The political system here is, perhaps, a case in point. Created by, essentially, the Marshall plan engineers at the end of the war, it was meant to reflect the US way, with the added rider of being easily manipulated by the same "engineers". The aim at the time was to enable the US to remain sufficiently in control in order to prevent the evils of communism from gaining a stronghold in Europe by way of Italy. It worked very well, as the DC managed to keep them out of power very effectively - but at great cost to the democratic systems that allowed this. You will all, I'm sure, be aware of the oft quoted "fact" that Italy has had 61 governments since WW2. Of course, should you look at the actual people involved in all of those governments, you will find that all of the Italian politicians in power have been drawn from the same pool. In fact, it is quite easy to argue that Italy has had the most stable government in Europe since the war. We are still "enjoying" the same system, with the same faces, with the same motives.

Saying all of that would seem, perhaps, that I am saying that it is not possible to change things here. Actually, no. I'm not saying that. I only wish to point out some of the background issues that are driving what you experience here.

To pick up some of the points that damiano raised: yes, indeed, Italy is a "sick" country from the economic standpoint. However, it is not because, as was later suggested, that Italians are lazy, workshy and indolent people. It is very much more complex than that.

Italy has "enjoyed" a position in the world economic "league table" far beyond the actuality of the situation in the past. The usual way to make Italian products competitive in the world market was to make it cheaper than the competition - Indesit was a good example of this. By the constant manipulation of the Lira, Italian business forged ahead, even though it was buying all of the raw materials from outside - even the power needed for manufacturing was bought in from outside of Italy. Taxes were not particularly high and, in any case, were rarely paid in any case - allowing the factory owners to make vast fortunes. Italy survived by the simple expedient of hiding everything in a mass of paperwork and slowing everything down that might create a slow-down in economic growth. (eta: the economic growth of a particular individual, that is)

Of course, this is not a truly sustainable course of action, but it made many people very rich - so it didn't really matter (remember my saying that Italians don't really have a patriotic sense of identity). Individual Italians - Bresciani, Torinese, etc. - became exceedingly rich whilst Italy was borrowing more and more money (usually called "investment") from overseas sources to keep some sort of infrastructure running - as well as paying the rather generous, but well deserved, pensions of the ex.statale, etc.

All of Europe has had to change over the past 20 years or so. The UK has managed to change itself from a manufacturing country into a service industry country very successfully in that time. Of course, in the case of the UK it was a change driven by running out of the raw materials that used to drive manufacturing - coal being particularly important. Italy, with a remarkable lack of native raw materials was - and still is - at a disadvantage here. This was compounded by the "third world" finding their strength in manufacturing. China has raw materials in abundance as well as cheap labour. An unbeatable combination in the modern world of today.

No, I'm afraid that Italy will never be a manufacturing country of substance again - not in my grandchildren's lifetime, that is. No more so than the UK will be. It has nothing to do with a workshy population - just an unlucky set of circumstances and a social situation that does not encourage a patriotic view of a country that is barely perceived as a single force.

Berlusconi is, as before, merely seeking power for the sake of his eternal memory. A great salesman and a brilliant lawyer - but entirely without the kind of scruples that we expect to see in public servants. Of course, in Italy there are no "Public Servants" at all, merely state employees - statale. It might seem like a small difference, but if you think about it you will see a vast chasm between how the two are both regarded by others and how they regard themselves.

So, what to do? We, as foreigners can do nothing, of course. Only talk to people and try to encourage. Whinging is not something we should be doing as it is entirely counter-productive when trying to encourage people to see beyond the TV screen, as it actually feeds the sense of hopelessness so often seen here. Things will change here, as everywhere, but they will not change whilst the interests of individuals are being held above those of the nation - north and south together.

Secondo me...

As a side issue, perhaps you might find the [URL="http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php"]NationMaster web site[/URL] interesting. It has an interesting fact base and might be what you were looking for?

And - there is always the [URL="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/it.html"]CIA World Fact Book [/URL](did you know that Italy is slightly larger than Arizona, whilst the UK is slightly smaller than Oregon?).

Nardini, I have read your long intelligent post and you are undoubtedly correct in the impossibilty of 'straneiri' understanding Italian 'politics'. However, I am much more optimistic than you are about the future. (Although I am a straniero, and a fundamental communist having understood the corruption of communist ideals in the Italian scenario). So: I am delighted that I will no longer have to suffer Bertinotti's sound clips on the news, but at the same time distressed that Bossi still has a (debilitated) voice. Despite my (almost genetic) political leanings I'm really quite happy to give Silvio another go at it.

It is time (and actually I think it has happened) that Italians distance themselves from historic stereotypes. It is even more important that the 'mezzogiorno' - or maybe we should term them the niggers - get onto Obama's bandwagon and say, hey, we ain't so thick. Because, in my opinion, that is the truth. Bossi and the lega nord are LYING about the wastrels of Calabria and Sicily - but these lies are being believed.

This 'accepted wisdom' from the rich North (and you are probably correct in tracing the whole casino back to the Marshall plan) is what is truly holding Italy back. Employment - God forbid we attach to Damiano's ideal of 'mass employment', that isn't going to work anywhere on the globe nowadays - but Italy is a viciously divided society and (for me) the culprits are in a great part the protectionist (so called) commies of central Italy. You just have to look at the level of unnecessary local legislation in Toscana, Umbria, Le Marche and think about how this rubbish impacts on Calabria and Basilicata.

A couple of days ago one of the Rai programs [Anno Zero?] did a piece generally on immigration. Touched on was how the Lega wants to ban national contracts. The wierd bit is the ones that favoured it were in the "rich" north. Now you'd think they'd understand that national contracts are for THEIR favour not for Sicilians. If a factory owner can pay Sicilians 20% [or even 5%] less he is going to close his factory in the north. Why wouldn't he?

The problem with many of ideas pushed by these guys is on the very surface they sound okay. But they don't hold up to any sort close viewing.

There is going to be an interesting conflict if it becomes clear the Lega wants to really crack down on illegal foregein workers. Those employers aren't likely to be far left voters. You saw this when the Lega was the first people to come to the support of workers when they were attacked after the election.

Right now Berlusconi and his group are a wierd mix of left and right policies. Many of the sort pushed by workers [and ignored by the left] others the types pushed by the rich.

You see it in the whining about things like tax paperwork. They want things to be like other countries. Well guess what sector comparisons are like other countries. They want less temp work when the countries they point to are moving heavily to temps of all sorts.

Let us accept the presumption that stranieri can't understand Italian politics, and discuss what straneri might have to offer.

I had come in last night with what might have been considered an intemperate post (following an exciting evening arguing the toss about American politics in a very international group). We had got around to comparing the attitude which (going back a bit) the Yankees had to the Confederate states, segueing into the 1960s civil rights movements in the southern states, and getting into comparisons with today's Italy.

There are significant similarities - (maybe pork-barrel politics isn't really that different from Mafia influence) and the arrogance of the 'ruling class' (US speak Kennedy clans) - whether you want to say that is Bossi or the bourgeois matrons of Milano or Torino or the Confindustria (who I actually have a lot of faith in), but I do get the feeling that Italy is probaly on the cusp of a very important bloodless revolution. (Which is why I am optimistic.) The snag is that Beppe Grillo is not only a coward, but he isn't from the South.

Anyway, I am pretty convinced that a Berlusconi figure (and yes, I read the Economist etc which try and persuade the opinion makers that he is quite beyond the pale) is more akin to an Eddie Shah.....but then, I am saying that no European can understand Italian politics, but quite probaly Americans can connect by referring to their more recent history.

Think about it, and if you can, get involved: because it has really opened up, and however uninvolved or ignorant or modest that you newly arrived stranieri think you are - just vocalise your opinions: nobody is going to shoot you! It could just make a difference.

[quote=nigelaxis;89695]The fix is actually easier to then its made out to be. Afterall, Italy can draw on the experience of other EU nations and adopt the policies that seem to be working the best.

Personally I would:
1) Adopt the British system of law. Things happen faster and you are accountable. This would stick lots of people in jail and make an example not o do it again.

80 % of the inmates of UK prisons re-offend within 1 year of their release.
I'm not sure what you should do about them, but British style prisons don't seem to be a particulary successful solution.

should be directing pressure on the EU to intervene. Surely the EU must have some laws on abuse of power? It can't all be about the curve in bananas![/quote]

The EU never was about the curve in bananas , it was just one in a long line of examples of Sun newspaper misinformation re the EU, "Brussels Bans Bent Bananas " was the headine I believe, about 10 years ago. Ever since I have entered Sainsburys with trepidation, expecting to see the dreaded straight bananas everywhere, but I have never seen them yet ! Amazing how long a lie can have credence .
R

[quote=Angie and Robert;89866]The EU never was about the curve in bananas , it was just one in a long line of examples of Sun newspaper misinformation re the EU, "Brussels Bans Bent Bananas " was the headine I believe, about 10 years ago. Ever since I have entered Sainsburys with trepidation, expecting to see the dreaded straight bananas everywhere, but I have never seen them yet ! Amazing how long a lie can have credence .[/quote]
Precisely. The other story that is oft used as an example of EU interference is the "rickety ladder" directive. The actual directive concerns the safety of workers on scaffolding - nothing to do with ladders. But hey! don't let a bit of truth get in the way of a story that will get your readers worked up into a good froth.

[quote=NickZ;89772]A couple of days ago one of the Rai programs [Anno Zero?] did a piece generally on immigration. Touched on was how the Lega wants to ban national contracts. The wierd bit is the ones that favoured it were in the "rich" north. Now you'd think they'd understand that national contracts are for THEIR favour not for Sicilians. If a factory owner can pay Sicilians 20% [or even 5%] less he is going to close his factory in the north. Why wouldn't he?[/quote]
Sorry, but what's a "national contract"?

Al

[quote=AllanMason;89906]Sorry, but what's a "national contract"?

Al[/quote]

My understanding of a 'national contract' - which Bossi wants to do away with at all costs - is a contract whereby, [I]irrespective [/I]of where you live, your terms and conditions will be the same as everyone else who does the same job of work. So a contract which is negotiated on a national basis and not on a local basis.

Such contracts are widely used for state employees and people working in large national utility type industries.

Part of the Lega Nord argument is that pay should be based on the cost of living in the area where you are employed, and on the productivity of the individual or the 'local department/branch' of a company or utility... In the UK the same arguments arose for decades both for and against "London Weighting" - originally agreed to compensate workers who had to travel to work in London and for the higher cost of living when there. No longer being in the UK, or working, I don't know if this has now been rescinded, replaced or just cancelled from contracts.

No, it hasn't, LW is still very much in force.

Just to whet your appetite

[I]
Among the measures adopted by the government was to declare dump sites and refuse treatment facilities in five provinces to be of ''national strategic interest'' and thus protected by the armed forces.

The cabinet also agreed on a number of temporary dump sites, the locations of which will be kept secret for the time being to avoid protests.

''We will not accept actions by a minority which disrupt activities at airports, railways and dump sites and the State will intervene stop these,'' Berlusconi warned. Anyone found guilty of organising such disorders will be punishable with up to five years in jail, while those who attempt to block waste disposal operation risk three months to one year, the premier added.[/I]

Link to full article : [url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-05-21_121214991.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Berlusconi takes hard line on trash[/url]