9588 Renovation

well, the description is very general, but it sounds like a very good quotation indeed. Actaully bit on the low side... check the provision for unforssens in the bill of quantities....

Paola

[quote=latoca;89880]well, the description is very general, but it sounds like a very good quotation indeed. Actaully bit on the low side... check the provision for unforssens in the bill of quantities....

Paola[/quote]

Thanks for your super quick reply Paola,

Is this something that should appear on my quote or is it something I should just ask for? The services Water, Electricity are in the house and the gas line stops directly outside the door or so I am told. Also, I'm a bit concerned about the disposal of what I believe is asbestos on the roof of the terrace. Looks like the old owner liked a bit of DIY. Although my architect seems to have good English he didn't understand 'asbestos' do you know is the Italian for this?

Its called amiante , the quote seems fair.

i agree, seems fair. Beware though the extras that will inevitably occur and budget accordingly. We recently had a damp proof course and french drain put in, only to find the house was being supplied with mains water from a small diameter plastic pipe designed for garden irrigation (all buried under concrete of course but it explained some of the water supply problems we experienced.)

[quote=Rorus;89879]My wife and i bought a town house early last year in a town called Castel Castagna not far from the Gran Sasso.[/quote]
We live about 5km up the road. :smile:
[quote=Rorus;89879]Using an architect that was recommended to us. He has quoted us 50k plus agent fee 12% and all subject to VAT...[/quote]
First, I'm curious if you're definitely dealing with an architect and not a geometra. Some people here have strong views on both professions, but my main interest is due to us wanting work done on our house and not having total confidence in the geometra who dealt with the planning stage. If things go well for you... :bigergrin:

I'm also curious about who recommended the architect to you. One of the major problems non-Italians have here is that we are totally outside the local networks, we can't see those networks and we have no idea how they work. That means the value of recommendations is often very difficult to judge.

Further clarification: is the 'agent fee' of 12% you quote the architect's charge for his or her services?

There are many others who are much more experienced in such things but, for what it's worth, I concur with others here who have a feeling the quote sounds reasonable given what you say about the work to be done. But do be prepared for cost over-runs, not necessarily because anyone is trying to rip you off, but just because that's what almost always happens with any sort of building work.
[quote=Rorus;89879]All finishings seem to be extra.[/quote]
Stand to be corrected, but I think this is the norm in Italy.

As for disposal of what you think might be asbestos, in such a situation I'd just stay well clear and trust that the architect knows what it is he's dealing with and how to properly dispose of waste material. My dictionary says that the Italian is either [I]asbesto[/I] or [I]amianto[/I].

Al

it is amianto. amianto disposal is very expensive if dealt with it properly. Ask to see the exact quotation for that. even if the gas supply runs outside your door it will cost you about 1000 euros(from the gas company). Just try to get a costs break down as detailed as you can...in writing... they will not like it, because it is a lot of work and hassle, but it a useful exercise. ...

[quote=latoca;89921]Just try to get a costs break down as detailed as you can...in writing... they will not like it, because it is a lot of work and hassle, but it a useful exercise. ...[/quote]
That seems to me a sensible suggestion, Paola, but I wonder how much such a breakdown is really worth.

Would you, as an architect, ever provide a cast-iron guarantee that a job will not cost more than your estimate? Or is it your practice to do the usual and make allowances for costs to increase due to things not going to plan? From the architect's and builders' points of view, that's entirely reasonable, but it can cause home-owners a lot of worry and sleepless nights.

It seems to me that it comes back to finding an architect, geometra, builder, etc who you can trust totally. And that's a big problem for those of us coming into communities without knowing the local cast of characters and their peculiarities. It's an even more serious difficulty for people who spend little time here.

Al

Hi All,

Thanks for your input. Just to clarify, the 12% is the architects fee for the management of the project. So, for instance I spend 50k he gets 6k. In a nutshell he is my project manager. He was recommended to me by the agent I was using to purchase the house. To be honest I know nobody in Italy apart from Toto Schillaci who knocked Ireland out of the 1990 world cup.

Also, he has also given me an itemised break-down of all works to be carried out. I paid 1,000 Euro for his consultation. He then measured and produced drawings for the current state of the house and a new proposed finish drawing of the house. So, it's not like he said right 'fifty grand'? Although the itemised quote is in Italian I managed to decipher most of it myself, I have discussed anything I didn't understand. As regards the gas line outside the door, I don't have an exact breakdown of the works for this. But, on my quotation it says 'Realizzazione impianto idro-termo-sanitario, comprensivo di caldaia' which I believe should be the sanitary water and water heating system this costs 7.8k on my quote and 3.9k for electical works exlcuding light fittings. However, I do hope to do some of the work myself, for instance he has nearly 1k for painting, i'll definitely do this myself and I have some tiling experience theres a few grand in there for that too. But, i'll definitely ask about the 'impiante'.
I'm also considering solar heating for the water, it's not in my current quote but as there is no heating in the house I wonder if it will make a huge difference in my quote. I also have a sneaky idea that there are grants available for energy saving projects such as solar. Would anybody know about this?

I sure hope 7800 is a full heating system. Mine was a fraction of that including a condensing boiler and alumimun rads.

Right now to the best of my knowledge the only tax saving for solar hotwater is an income tax write off. Which means you need to be paying Italian income tax. OTOH solar hotwater is relatively "cheap". I bet you could add a panel and a 150 litre tank for less then 2k more.

BTW if you're ripping up the floors for new tiles are you laying tubes for radiant floor heating?

[quote=NickZ;89941]I sure hope 7800 is a full heating system. Mine was a fraction of that including a condensing boiler and alumimun rads.[/quote]

Maybe, I should've said before we're demolishing the current bathroom which is on the top floor. Currently on the top floor theres a bedroom that is accessed directly by a staircase into the room and then on from that is a bathroom and then on to the terrace. So, the new plan is 2 bedrooms on the middle floor one at the front of builiding and one at back of building with the new bathroom and a new staircase from the basement kitchen through the middle floor to the top floor which is the new open plan living room which goes directly onto terrace. So, the 7800 I would like to think is the heating system along with any necessary pipes to make the bathroom and kitchen function. But, definitely something I'll clarify.

[quote=NickZ;89942]BTW if you're ripping up the floors for new tiles are you laying tubes for radiant floor heating?[/quote]

No, I haven't planned to. My thinking here is the house is not enormous. And so maybe wooden floors in the bedrooms and the open living room on top floor. I'm thinking the wood will help hold some heat in rather than cold tile (I hope!). Might be a good idea for the bathroom though? Fireplace on the top floor also nearly 2k reserved for this on quotation. I did ask about the fire and I'm sure he said that was supply and fitting of fire. Any ideas of an energy efficient way of running a fire. Personally, I love the idea of an wood burning fire. Nice for skiing months?

[quote=NickZ;89942]BTW if you're ripping up the floors for new tiles are you laying tubes for radiant floor heating?[/quote]

Hi NickZ
I never considered this before. Had a quick look at this site [url=http://www.hometips.com/cs-protected/guides/radiant.html]HomeTips: Radiant Floor Heating Systems[/url]

Looks like there's a lot to consider with this option. Is this something you've done yourself?

It would have meant ripping up good floors :eeeek: Plus the previous owners had put all the pipes in for rads. OTOH for some reason they did set up the cantina for radiant. Just need the pipes laid and the floor put on top. I've no idea why they did what they did. So if I ever fix up the cantina it'll be set up this way.

[quote=Rorus;89950] Any ideas of an energy efficient way of running a fire. Personally, I love the idea of an wood burning fire. Nice for skiing months?[/quote]

Ask how much more for a termocamino. It can be hooked up to your boiler system. Save wood. Heat the whole house to.

[quote=NickZ;89955]Ask how much more for a termocamino. It can be hooked up to your boiler system. Save wood. Heat the whole house to.[/quote]

What is that? a gas fire?

No it's basically a closed wood fireplace with a heating coil inside. The coil is hooked up to your gas boiler. The fire heats the water in the coil. The pumps in your boiler move the water around.

[quote=NickZ;89959]No it's basically a closed wood fireplace with a heating coil inside. The coil is hooked up to your gas boiler. The fire heats the water in the coil. The pumps in your boiler move the water around.[/quote]

Okay! sounds good. So, this and solar water heating should have me well sorted then? And then use the gas when I'm stuck?

That's basically what I'm doing.

I've got a condensing gas boiler in now.

I'm in the process of getting a termo-cucina installed. A wood fired cook stove with the heating coil in it.

Then next spring a couple of solar panels and a tank. Not sure about the size of the tank yet.

The solar will at the very least pre-heat things with the other two handling the load. On sunny days the solar might handle more then just pre-heating the rad water.

Radiant flooring is a good match with solar. The system can be set at temps that match the solar system better.

It's an overkill setup in some ways. OTOH when gas is expensive then burn wood. Or just when you want a wood fire.

Well, I have to say I like the sound of that setup. Even though it's a bit overkill, It sounds very efficient. And of course doing your bit for the environment. For me I have to say the last thing I want from my holiday home is high running costs, and if it means biting the bullet to get a proper setup organised then so be it. Thanks NickZ

Sounds reasonable to me , although I really would make sure there are no hidden extras and even then budget for at least 10 % extra and as for heating I think the KISS principle( Keep it simple stupid) applies, gas is clean, efficient but perhaps not cheap but there you go.

[quote=elliven;89968]Sounds reasonable to me , although I really would make sure there are no hidden extras and even then budget for at least 10 % extra and as for heating I think the KISS principle( Keep it simple stupid) applies, gas is clean, efficient but perhaps not cheap but there you go.[/quote]

Hi Elliven,

Thanks for your post. Would Solar be considered as clean and efficient? Especially, with so much sun, fueling it. It's like free hot or warm water. As regards the TermoFire. I'd have to learn a bit more about, but equally sounds efficient.

yes, that is what I do. i try to break down the costs as much as I can, and then put at leats a 15% for unforseens on top of the budget. So that the client can decide where to make cuts.
It is important for me just as much as it is for the client, I want to avoid discussions and disappointments...

Paola

[quote=elliven;89968]Sounds reasonable to me , although I really would make sure there are no hidden extras and even then budget for at least 10 % extra and as for heating I think the KISS principle( Keep it simple stupid) applies, gas is clean, efficient but perhaps not cheap but there you go.[/quote]

Well the wood stove would be the simplest . Hooked up to the gas boiler it depends on the boiler pumps to circulate the heat but then so does the gas boiler. The solar is fairly simple to but needs the pump to circulate the water.

Gas certainly is easier. No wood to haul/store or to chop. No ashes to dispose of. No fire to light. No waiting for things to heat up. Just push a button and away you go.

OTOH wood does speak to some of us in ways gas doesn't.

FWIW Carrefour today had a solor hotwater system on display today. 1500 Euros for a complete hotwater system. Panel and tank with electric element for cloudy days. If you've got a gas boiler then you don't need the electric bit which you'd think would lead to lower prices. I just glanced at the thing but that's 500 Euros less then the guy with the desk in front of the store wants :laughs:

[quote=NickZ;90024]FWIW Carrefour today had a solor hotwater system on display today. 1500 Euros for a complete hotwater system. Panel and tank with electric element for cloudy days. If you've got a gas boiler then you don't need the electric bit which you'd think would lead to lower prices. I just glanced at the thing but that's 500 Euros less then the guy with the desk in front of the store wants :laughs:[/quote]

Not, to take away from Carrefour. But, what would the quality of the product be like. I would've assumed that a Solar Heating system would be quite high end stuff or maybe even some kind of industry standard. I also assume that you get the product fitted yourself or somebody to do it for you. I wonder how much that would cost. I was just looking at a solar heating supply company in Ireland and it costs 6k and I don't even know if that includes fitting. Mind you everything is dearer in Ireland. Although the website said that it can be installed in one day. So, I wonder how big a job it really is?

Assuming we're just talking about solar hotwater then it's a relatively low tech setup. At the most basic were the old setups of nothing more then a water tank painted black. The same way a garden hose will get hot if left in the sun so would the tank.

I just glanced at the setup at Carrefour. I did notice the tank was greek made. The actual panel at least on the surface looked okay but I wasn't really looking.

But systems do vary wildly. It's hard to say why the system you saw cost so much. I guess you'd have less sun in Ireland which would mean a bigger system [more panels more money] If it's an area with winter frosts then the system needs to be more complicated. They might also being using some of the more expensive more efficient panels. But unless it's a huge system 6K Euros is pretty high for hotwater.

[url=http://solarhotwater.siliconsolar.com/solar-radiant-heating-kits-1000-sqft-home.php]Solar Storage Tanks - 40 Gallon Solar Hot Water Storage Tanks[/url]

Thats a US site but it shows some BIG systems aimed at heating a fair sized house.

You're already getting a heating systems installed. I'd get the same person to install the solar setup hooking the two together. This way the gas boiler will be your backup. When the solar is hot the boiler will only pump the water. When it's not quite hot enough the gas will raise the temp the rest of the way.

Prices in the UK (and I suspect Ireland) can be high as it is not yet a mature market. There is also the phenomenon of the over-priced double-glazing merchants getting into the business and doing the same there with prices triple what they should be.

Have a look at Navitron gear for more realistic pricing in the UK ; not sure if they sell to Eire.

[quote=sueflauto;90069]Have a look at Navitron gear for more realistic pricing in the UK ; not sure if they sell to Eire.[/quote]
Navitron have taken my money and I'm currently awaiting delivery in Italy, so I imagine they can cope with Irish orders. :winki:

Al