9587 Please Please Please try.....

Hello Everyone,
Last night I went out for a meal with my family to a nice restaurant near me. Upon entering it was quite clear that there was a rather large group of English people in the restaurant. From the noise they were making it was quite clear they were drinking too much and before any comments are made, they weren't and bunch of lager louts they were in fact a group in their 50's.
I chose to sit in another part of the restaurant not wanting to be engaged by the group. Sometime later a group of Italian young men in their 20's came in to have a meal. I knew a few of them and had a little chat. They then sat down and began their meal.
Almost immediately one of the English group, a woman in her 50's came into the main part where I was siting with my family and the young Italians and made a complete spectacle of herself. Clearly drunk and speaking very loudly.
When she had gone I had to sit listening to the young Italians talking about how typical it was that English people were and how stupidly they acted. To be honest I was quite ashamed of being English at that moment.
I certainly wouldn't of expected that, what a contradiction in terms. A group of young men disgusted by the actions of a woman in her fifties.
Not least when they all decided to leave. They were loud and rude. Furthermore speaking English drunkenly to the Italian owner didn't look very good.
It's not hard to learn the words Ciao or Buonasera. Neither is it hard to act with a bit of decorum and respect. Personally I'm not surprised Italians have a bad impression of the English with people like that running round. You may the retired to Italy but it doesn't mean you can do what you want.
So Please Please Please try to set a good example for Italians it will benefit us all.
:no:

Category

General chat about Italy

....so tell, *where* was this? :biggrin:

Sadly, there are all too often times when all you can do is cringe and be ashamed of your fellow countrymen/women and just hope that you never encounter them again. Hopefully, this particular group were just on holiday and will not be darkening Le Marche again!

Not alcohol related, but still cringe worthy ~ when I was a student I worked in France over the summer - one market day, at the fantastic cheese stall, there was a very well dressed, very well spoken, but loud English couple - the wife was talking extremely loudly about her love of French cheeses and how wonderful they all were so as a treat, she would buy her favourite French cheese - what did she buy? GORGONZOLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are the Italian words for pedantic and pontificator? :wideeyed:

I'm from Northern Ireland, so I can choose to be British or Irish. The above is a perfect example of the reasons for the national identity I choose when abroad.

Il Cacciatore has a point, in that it is embarrassing to see drunken English misbehaving in bars and restaurants.

The trouble is that those who behave in this manner are unlikely to respond well to his pleas and at the end of the day you can only ever be responsible for your own behaviour.

Agree Nielo, he definately has a point. We also have had the same experience in a restaurant in Sarnano. I suppose the only saving grace was that they apologised for being so loud to us as we were leaving, maybe as they also realised we were english as well. I wonder if they apologised to the Italian owner as well, who we have known for about 4 years.
It is embarassing if we all get tarred with the same brush in the end, as many of us like to go out for a quiet evening meal and talk in normal voices, instead of having to try to have a conversation where you cannot even hear yourself think!!!

One can see embarassing behaviour everywhere, but the idea that large meal parties of Italians are quiet and don't drink had me laughing out loud.

Come off it!!! Where was this restaurant???

Last time we went to our local there were a group of 50 year olds ,big bmw outside all very loud and going on about money, house prices etc. My idea of hell so we sat a long way away and couldn't hear ourselves talk coz a group of 5 Italian males were out on a jolly and making a right racket!

Haven't you sat next to a table of Italian teenagers eating out together? We actually quite like it as they are so vibrant and full of life whereas we are a couple of old crocks!!!

Any teenager with parents in their 50's will tell you just how embarassing they can be;blame it on the hrt!!

[quote=sueflauto;89899]One can see embarassing behaviour everywhere, but the idea that large meal parties of Italians are quiet and don't drink had me laughing out loud.[/quote]

Don't recall anything in the original post that mentioned Italians not drinking,or for that matter being quiet.

There is a vast difference between drinking and drinking to excess,as there is between being excessively loud and actively foolish because one has consumed way too much alcohol,and just having a party atmosphere.

Clearly when in rome should apply, not when in blackpool...

Whenever we go to restaurants and realise that our near neighbours are British, we either - move, speak very very quietly or speak in our very modest Italian. It just seems easier that way.

Except, we did meet some forum members at the beginning of the year at one of our local restaurants and it was a pleasure to meet, chat and exchange experiences.

A group of young Italian men so "disgusted by a loud Englishwoman in her fifties" that they walked out!...Oh yeah???

But why are we doing this? When we say we find Italians far more sociable than ourselves; more neighbourly etc.Then we act like typical Brits!!

In my case its because I'm a snob about some people which is wrong.I shouldn't judge people based on their clothes, car they drive or politics.

Next time I hear some Brits in our local I'm going to say hello and invite them round for coffee!!

Be nice to a Brit!!

[quote=Aretina;89932]Whenever we go to restaurants and realise that our near neighbours are British, we either - move, speak very very quietly or speak in our very modest Italian. It just seems easier that way.

Except, we did meet some forum members at the beginning of the year at one of our local restaurants and it was a pleasure to meet, chat and exchange experiences.[/quote]

How very British of you...and how sad.
Alanj

Easier than what?! I must say this is a very bizarre thread - are we all being tarred with the same brush that we have to be reminded how to behave?

What exactly were these people doing that horrified everyone and why didn't the owner of the restaurant present them with their bill and ask them to leave?

I'm sure we have all been in bars/restaurants where a large group have been celebrating and things have gotten a little OTT but it is not just Brits. Middle aged Italian men can act VERY inappropriately when in a group and having had too much to drink!!

Jackie

I have met loads of other Brits in restaurants and usually say hello, we don't talk in whispers nor do we avoid other Brits.

However I have also witnessed very drunk Brits who were embarrassing and loud, these I have avoided as I would any drunk no matter what nationality.

There is no point tarring all Brits with the same brush nor assuming that Italians can never be loud and embarrassing. You can tell the percentage of Italians on a flight by the decibel level!

There is good and bad to be found in every Nationality, avoid the bad and embrace the good.

[quote=jackie C;89946]Easier than what?! I must say this is a very bizarre thread - are we all being tarred with the same brush that we have to be reminded how to behave?

What exactly were these people doing that horrified everyone and why didn't the owner of the restaurant present them with their bill and ask them to leave?

Jackie[/quote]

I agree Jackie..very bizarre..and very, very patronising.
Alanj

[quote=alanj;89948]I agree Jackie..very bizarre..and very, very patronising.
Alanj[/quote]

How is it patronisng!

It can only be patronising if you take offence,and the only reason for anyone to take offence or find it patronising is if it hits a raw nerve!.

I also found it short sighted when people respond with lines like "you find that type of so and so in every nationality" Which is true,but you find that type of behaviour
is something the brits are infamous for the world round.!

It shouldn't apply to anyone on this site, so it seems a little strange to me how some have taken offence to the original post!

Now thats patronising!

[quote=il cacciatore;89864]When she had gone I had to sit listening to the young Italians talking about how typical it was that English people were and how stupidly they acted. To be honest I was quite ashamed of being English at that moment.[/quote]
I wonder if any Italians here might be ashamed of those young men’s ignorant stereotyping of the British? Since you seem to pride yourself on your integration into the Italian community, I wonder what you think about the possibility that their views were of a piece with the way many Italians view Romanians, Albanians, Italians from the [I]mezzogiorno[/I] and so on. Do you think that sort of casual bigotry is simple ignorance and due to the fact that many Italians never get beyond their borders even on holiday? Or perhaps it’s a result of the deep-seated [I]campanilismo[/I] mindset?

I find it interesting that the young men made such comments in earshot of someone they knew to be British. Was that just youthful lack of tact? Or maybe they aren't quite as friendly to you as you like to think?

My Dutch partner tells me that many people in The Netherlands believe Germans are all loud, drunken louts. I've friends in Edinburgh who complain about the noisy, milling mobs of Italian teenagers (supposedly learning English) that clutter up the place every summer. Many Brits also think all Americans are pushy, overbearing and noisy.

The fact is that most people find it a lot easier to get through life if they can immediately dump strangers into a clearly labelled box. Many people find it even nicer if they can feel superior to someone else.

It seems to me that when British people express disapproval of other Brits behaving in an uncouth manner, there's always a danger of sounding either arrogant or very insecure. Really, why should it bother you how that group of people behaved? You are no more responsible for their actions than you are for the deeds of Harold Shipman, Fred West and Ian Brady. They, too, were English and they did a lot more than get merry and make noise in a restaurant. Does their existence make you feel ashamed to be English?

Is it possible that the real problem is that you consider the restaurant ‘yours’ in some sense and the presence of other Brits having a good time felt like an intrusion? When you say,
[quote=il cacciatore;89864]You may the retired to Italy but it doesn't mean you can do what you want.[/quote]
it makes me wonder if you don't see the whole of Italy in that way. Perhaps the only Brits you welcome here are the ones who are ashamed of being British and desperately try to be more Italian than the Italians?

You may not like it, but the fact is that I [I][B]can[/B][/I] do as I want in Italy (within the law, of course); I [I][B]can[/B][/I] go out to a restaurant and behave like a complete arse if I should so wish and so long as the proprietor allows; I certainly [I][B]can[/B][/I] disregard all preaching about my responsibility to not embarrass Brits who might have a more delicate sense of propriety.

However, the fact is that I've never taken advantage of the freedom to embarrass myself (and you). So I promise you that when we go out for a meal, I'll continue to drink no more than one glass of wine, to treat people with respect, to speak in low tones when I use English and to use Italian as often as possible.

Does that mean you'll allow me to remain in your Italy? :eerr:

Sadly, even if every Brit they encountered from now on were to behave with the most refined decorum and civility, it's probably likely that your prejudiced Italian friends will never alter their opinions about the British. So who would be to blame for that?

[quote=giovanni;89953]How is it patronisng!

It can only be patronising if you take offence,and the only reason for anyone to take offence or find it patronising is if it hits a raw nerve!.

It shouldn't apply to anyone on this site, so it seems a little strange to me how some have taken offence to the original post!

Now thats patronising![/quote]

I think you are missing the point a little. If, as you say, the comments shouldn't apply to anyone on this site - why the appeal for us all to behave ourselves? Of course people will take umbrage, especially when said person doesn't know the people they are appealing to or how they would generally behave!

It isn't short sighted to say that there are "that type .....in every nationality". Its a fact, and to restrict uncouth drunken behaviour to be the sole province of the Brits is like saying all Italian men are bottom pinching mummy's boys which would justifiably cause offence to those who aren't!

Jackie

Sad I know but I think that lot would have behaved badly wherever they were! My experiences of eating out in Italy have all been brilliant and people watching has all been part of the fun.( PS I find that parties of kids going out with their mates to celebrate a birthday at the local pizzeria behave very well - a bit noisy maybe! )

[quote=jackie C;89960]I think you are missing the point a little. If, as you say, the comments shouldn't apply to anyone on this site - why the appeal for us all to behave ourselves? Of course people will take umbrage, especially when said person doesn't know the people they are appealing to or how they would generally behave!

Jackie[/quote]

I would ask one question of all those that seem to have taken offence and in someway defend the actions of the drunks.

Why are you in Italy?

I don't need to ask that really cause i have seen the responce ex pats give when this question is asked about them not wanting to live in britain anymore and setting up house be it in Italy or france ect ect.

The answer in the main,revolves around lifestyle,the very fact that they what to get away from the ratrace lifestyle that is a major player in life in the UK.

The main pionts are unfriendly ignorant people,safety walking the streets and drunken yobs. ect ect ect.

Now as far as i am concerned i know exactly what "can" was on about,and i know exactly what he was refering to as well.

And i found it pathetic how some on here would try to turn the statement around,and defend the undefendable.

Nobody said it applied to,or was intended to taint all expats with the same brush.
Moreover when someone mentions something that no matter how distastefull it is,is actually a well known behaviour pattern that one country excels at far better than any other.Whats the piont in trying to turn the event around as if it was a one off!

Using that sort of mentally i soppose i could say,concerning corruption in Italy or the burrocracy, that"hell its the same in the UK"

Which would be as silly as some of the earlier remarks...............and it would also be silly of me to take offence if someobe else made remarks concerning corruption or burrocracy in Italy....Facts are Facts.... wether we like them or not.....

[quote=giovanni;89953]How is it patronisng!

It can only be patronising if you take offence[/quote]

well, I had no interest in the thread originally - other than to watch every one start to get on their high horses - because it's basically someone having a rant about behavior that would clearly not be likely to be exhibited by anyone on this forum . If it were, it would have been done in the certain knowledge that it was offensive to the locals, in which case the rant would by definition fall upon deaf ears.

However it most certainly can be patronising even if you don't take offence. I didn't take offence (as I saw it only as a rhetorical rant) but if I had thought it was aimed at me or people like me (which posting it here sort of implies) then I would have found ....
[quote=Il Cacciatore]
So Please Please Please try to set a good example for Italians it will benefit us all.[/quote]
.... very patronising, as it would be preaching at me on the presumption that I didn't know how to conduct myself in a culture that I've very much "bought into" ... and that is a pretty fair defintion of "patronising".

Less than a week after the blue half of my home city disgraced themselves in manchester (UEFA cup final) lets all agree that drunken bozos of whatever ilk do themselves and their nation a great disservice, and move on?

Well I checked my diary for that date and thankfully I was only out for lunch!, phew thats a relief, so it wasnt me, what is this thing about drunken 50plus women, I can see that this thread has upset people, actually I hide from English people in the local large supermarket,Not sure why , but I have to say that one very large vocal English woman pushed me aside as she lunged for the frozen sweetcorn, but dont worry I met her later at a charity lunch and had my"revenge" if you like, not sure if nationality comes into it some people are just intrinsically rude by nature, probably not best to label them.
A

[quote=giovanni;89967]I would ask one question of all those that seem to have taken offence and in someway defend the actions of the drunks.

Why are you in Italy?

The answer in the main,revolves around lifestyle,the very fact that they what to get away from the ratrace lifestyle that is a major player in life in the UK.

The main pionts are unfriendly ignorant people,safety walking the streets and drunken yobs. ect ect ect.
.....[/quote]

You make the assumption that a). all the people on this forum are living in Italy and b). they have moved to Italy because they can't stand the UK.

Many members may own property in Italy, some may even be lucky enough to live there but many use the forum as a learning tool and to engage with like minded people (in the main!). I love Italy and Britain, I do not feel afraid to walk done the street in either country, my neighbours in both are neither drunken yobs nor ignorant and the so called rat race has enabled me to spend time in Italy.

I certainly wouldn't defend yobbish drunken behaviour from anyone - no matter what their country of origin - but to generalise about the majority when referring to the behaviour of a minority is bad manners in my book.

Jackie

This thread is a perfect example of the one up man ship which happens on thiis forum.
“I am of Italian origin,”
“I am half Italian” ,
“I am married to an Italian”,
“I have been here for 20 years,”
“I work with Italians”,
“I read Italian newspapers”,
“I watch Italian TV”.
I’m more Italian than you are nardy nardy nar nah

Who gives a s**t!

We all love Italy or we would not be part of this forum. We all have different circumstances and situations and it is not a competition!

I live here but I don't have to work here so my experience is different to that of someone who either works here or has kids at school here. But my experience is also different to that of people who have holiday homes here and spend three weeks of the year here.

Every person’s experience is different and valuable; no one is 'superior' to anyone else and the sooner we accept that this is a forum for people who love Italy and not a place to show off your superior Italia status the better it will be.

Maybe if we were all less so far up our own a**es, more Italians would join and we would get a much better balance of opinion.

Rant over!!!

You've got an Italian TV??? We have to make our own entertainment with a tin can and granny's clog dance, and think ourselves lucky to have a cardboard box to sleep in........

[with apologies to you-know-who]

When I went out on Saturday night I drunk some wine and started laughing whilst in a restaurant with my friends, The owner came out of the kitchen to say hello and he also said that he always knew when I was in because there is laughter in his restaurant, giving the impression that he liked it! So maybe it aint all bad!
P.S I was'nt ratted and I am not 50!

[quote]You make the assumption that a). all the people on this forum are living in Italy and b). they have moved to Italy because they can't stand the UK.
[/quote]

No this is what i wrote

[quote]I don't need to ask that really cause i have seen the responce ex pats give when this question is asked about them not wanting to live in britain anymore and setting up house be it in Italy or france ect ect.
[/quote]

Its not an assumption,an assumption would be me jumping the gun and making that type of claim before i had listened to the many dfiferent people giving their reasons for starting a new /better life abroad.

Lets be honest you cannot blame the weather for eveything,and from a wealth position the UK takes a lot of beating,hell most people want to get into the UK for a better life,even the higher educated Italians!

So lets not try pussy footing around the main type of reasons for people moving to Italy,as its not about work opportunaties! and lets face it if you have taken your whole family with you,even your kids will not have the same opportunaties for work,they would get back in the UK.

No the main reason given is the lifestyle.
As nielo says" We all love Italy or we would not be part of this forum"

I would add,would we all love Italy as much if it became full of drunkards,in the streets, bars and resturants?should we all turn a blind eye when we see things that reminds us of the things we tried to leave behind?

I know its not a nice thing to talk about,but surely we should try to preserve a way of life that we all like,and not just dismiss the whole thing out of hand.

One final comment ,the drunkards in the resturant.
No way of knowing if they were mearely visiting friends who actually set up home in Italy.I'd have thought someone might have picked up on that.

regards Gio

Neilo's post mentions a group of people that probably constitute about 50% of forum users;but why say that they are trying to be [I]one up[/I] on everyone else if they mention any of his list ??

I have very strong opinions and I'm aware that my posts are sometimes confrontational but I'm more than happy for someone else who's got more experience because they've actually married an Italian or lived in Italy full-time to contradict me and they do!!!

As to Italians using the forum as has been said before by Adriatica this is predominantly a forum where english speakers can get useful tips / help from others who've been thro the buying /renovating process, its unlikely that any Italian residents would be very interested and if they were I see nothing here that would put them off posting!

[quote=myabruzzohome;89991]Neilo's post mentions a group of people that probably constitute about 50% of forum users;but why say that they are trying to be [I]one up[/I] on everyone else if they mention any of his list ??

I'm sorry but where do I mention a group of people? How would anyone know what 50% of the forum user-ship is, let alone be able to categorise them?

How does being married to an Italian qualify you to give superior opinions?

Yes I agree that this forum is of little interest to Italians but I still think it would be a good idea to encourage a wider membership base and if I were to defer to greater knowledge on Italian affairs I suspect I'd probably give more weight to someone who is an Italian national and has lived here all their life than to someone who needs to hype up their credentials by mentioning the sorts of things in my list.

Would it be OK for me to come and do some renovation work for you if I told you I was married to a builder?:laughs:

I know someone who knows a woman who lives next door to an Italian. Does that count? :bigergrin:

[quote]How does being married to an Italian qualify you to give superior opinions?
[/quote]

I do not believe the word superior was actually mentioned!
The word used was experience,which one would assume is well applied.

[quote]This thread is a perfect example of the one up man ship which happens on thiis forum.
[/quote]

Really? And do you know a forum where that type of thing does not happen?

[quote]“I am of Italian origin,”
“I am half Italian” ,
“I am married to an Italian”,
“I have been here for 20 years,”
“I work with Italians”,
“I read Italian newspapers”,
“I watch Italian TV”.
I’m more Italian than you are nardy nardy nar nah

Who gives a s**t!
[/quote]

I do.
Its nice to know who you are talking to,and what type of perspective is being used.

Somebody who has lived in a place for 20 years will have a dfiferent perspective to say a holiday maker or someone new to the place.

The same applies to all of your observations above.

Course if you don't give a **** I have a spade you can borrow.
Then you can tell me your perspective on how to dig a hole in the sand,which would still be of use,as i have no experience of it.......:laughs:

[quote] Would it be OK for me to come and do some renovation work for you if I told you I was married to a builder?[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying,but really a bad choice of phrase?

I mean comparing someones experience[which you need no formal qualifications]
To having someone do a job of work for you[which you would hope,you would use someone with a formal qualifications for the specific type of work you want doing]

Or am i being padantic......or maybe superior.....:laughs::laughs::laughs:

...."Tutto il mondo è paese".....there are so many Italians worse than those people, do not worry; I think the general opinion Italians have about those we call Anglosassoni is much… much better than that we have of ourselves.....maybe for a few minutes the young Italians have had a bad opinion on the lady.....but I'm sure....after a few hours they will remember where they live and who their fellow-countrymen are.....be sure about that...it's an Italian speaking....a few noisy people won't change that.

[quote=giovanni;90004]I

Really? And do you know a forum where that type of thing does not happen?

[/quote]

Yes, fortunately I do!

[quote=Nielo;89995]...How does being married to an Italian qualify you to give superior opinions?[/quote]
My wife would agree with the idea that I tend to think I give superior opinions.
[quote=Nielo;89995]...Would it be OK for me to come and do some renovation work for you if I told you I was married to a builder?:laughs:[/quote]
What an intriguing thought...Why not...Yes... Forse...:winki:

Ma...

My own experience is that when my wife and I are out for the night, on our own, we tend to shy away from ANYONE that speaks a language we are speaking - in ANY country. Discretion, etc...

[quote=Nielo;90036]Yes, fortunately I do![/quote]

You are indeed lucky,and no doubt its best kept secret from the majority.

But you could whisper it to me........:laughs: