In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=AllanMason;90081]..............I find it thoroughly bizarre that that, in an ostensibly modern democracy, Italian police and civil servants can do whatever they want in the period before and after an election and the public can only wait for politicians to take office and then hopefully force them to behave reasonably.[/quote]
Odd - with the 'reputation' of Italian politicians - I'd have thought that a time when the police could act without politicians 'butting in' might not be a bad thing.
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In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=alan h;90088]Odd - with the 'reputation' of Italian politicians - I'd have thought that a time when the police could act without politicians 'butting in' might not be a bad thing.[/quote]
Hmmm... :rollingeyes:
I suppose a periodic interlude of rationality would be welcomed, but that would require the police, civil servants, and other servants of the State to be capable of acting sensibly and without prejudice. Isn't it more likely that, in being part of 'The System', they are also very much part of 'The Problem'?
Al
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Are you actually suggesting the police should do what the politicians want? Next you'll have investigations stopped because they might damage "national security" :eeeek:
An independant legal system not only implies the police investigate/charge who they want but it requires it. Just ask all the Italian politicians that end up in court.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=NickZ;90113]Are you actually suggesting the police should do what the politicians want? Next you'll have investigations stopped because they might damage "national security" :eeeek:
An independant legal system not only implies the police investigate/charge who they want but it requires it. Just ask all the Italian politicians that end up in court.[/quote]
Just because they end up in court doesn't mean they end up in Jail. As I don't follow things over in Italy too closely, how many do end up in Jail?
Andy
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
No chance of ending up in jail if they don't get investigated in the first place.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=NickZ;90113]Are you actually suggesting the police should do what the politicians want?[/quote]
In some places, the people in charge of the police are directly elected (Sheriffs in the USA are the most prominent example), but in most places there is indeed a separation of politicians and police.
In a society with all the checks and balances of a mature democracy operating properly, that's normally a good thing. But problems can occur if, for example, the police are answerable only to the courts and the justice system grinds exceedingly slowly as happens in... oh... some places we know.
What the article suggests happened in Rome is that the police decided to move against the bus company because they knew they would not immediately be asked awkward questions by politicians who oversee their activities. One can easily question the motives and abilities of those politicians, but they are at least elected - which the police are not - and they do apparently have the ability to quickly make life awkward for the police if they should make strange decisions.
Who knows why the Rome police acted as they did when they did. Perhaps the rival bus company is operated by the cousin of the police chief. Maybe there's some personal ill-feeling between lower ranking police officers and Terravision personnel. Or perhaps money changed hands.
Are those completely unbelievable possibilities? I think any such suggestions would be dismissed out of hand in parts of the world that most of us know very well, but in Italy...
Al
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Quite agree with you Alan. Re Unelected police chiefs, you've only got to look at the unsackable mad mullahs we have in the UK. They choose which laws they think should be enforced on a day to day basis. Write internet blogs openly condeming elected politicians interfering in legal matters. The police are NOT the law, WE employ them to enforce it. The law is the product of democratic debate by our elected representatives. Sorry for the rant, ciao chris
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Elected politicians may make the law, but they don't have any role in enforcing it. That's the job of the courts. The police only investigate matters, the CPS bring prosecutions, and juries decide (with the help of the judge) whether they were right to do so.
In my view, politicians interfering with the judges is a far more serious matter than a few over-zealous coppers who are subject to several checks and balances. And police chiefs who depend on being elected are far more vulnerable to accusations of corruption.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=AllanMason;90157]
What the article suggests happened in Rome is that the police decided to move against the bus company because they knew they would not immediately be asked awkward questions by politicians who oversee their activities. One can easily question the motives and abilities of those politicians, but they are at least elected - which the police are not - and they do apparently have the ability to quickly make life awkward for the police if they should make strange decisions.
Who knows why the Rome police acted as they did when they did. Perhaps the rival bus company is operated by the cousin of the police chief. Maybe there's some personal ill-feeling between lower ranking police officers and Terravision personnel. Or perhaps money changed hands.
Are those completely unbelievable possibilities? I think any such suggestions would be dismissed out of hand in parts of the world that most of us know very well, but in Italy...
Al[/quote]
The extraordinary thing abut this story (which I am not doubting) is that I can find [B]absolutely no reference to it[/B] in the Italian online press - even in the local Rome 'papers'.
That makes it even more bewildering in my opinion. Can anybody find me a reference to the story outside a travel forum or the UK press?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Charles Phillips;90162]The extraordinary thing abut this story (which I am not doubting) is that I can find [B]absolutely no reference to it[/B] in the Italian online press - even in the local Rome 'papers'.
That makes it even more bewildering in my opinion. Can anybody find me a reference to the story outside a travel forum or the UK press?[/quote]
There is also no mention of it on the Terravision/Easyjet/Ryanair websites - all seem to be allowing tickets to be booked as usual.
In-laws are arriving at Rome CIA next week amd had planned to get the bus in to Termini - so if anyone knows if the buses have been 'released' and could confirm whether a normal service has been resumed they would be grateful. Obviously there are other buses, but they do not wish to purchase a useless ticket, even if it is only E6 if booked online!! Thanks
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=annec;90161]Elected politicians may make the law, but they don't have any role in enforcing it. That's the job of the courts. The police only investigate matters, the CPS bring prosecutions, and juries decide (with the help of the judge) whether they were right to do so.
In my view, politicians interfering with the judges is a far more serious matter than a few over-zealous coppers who are subject to several checks and balances. And police chiefs who depend on being elected are far more vulnerable to accusations of corruption.[/quote]
Previous coverage on Terravision's travails (2007) included this:
[I]
When in Rome ...
When the coach firm Terravision London started operating in Rome in 2002, its venture could not have been more straightforward. As in several other countries, they had deals with low-cost airlines to ferry passengers from out-of-the-way airports, in this case Ciampino, to the city.
Five years on, Terravision is pressing criminal charges against 20 local police officers, suing a politician for slander and pursuing a case in Brussels against the Italian government. Executives of the company claim they have run into concerted efforts by two Italian bus services, backed by local politicians, to take away their business. "We think an attempt is being made in Rome to shut us down," said one.
Three times since last September, the regional government has approved a rival, publicly subsidized service. Three times, it has been blocked by the courts. But acting on purported irregularities in Terravision's own situation - the local politician being sued described the firm as operating "at the limits of legality" - police earlier this year impounded the firm's coaches.
They have since been returned but travelers arriving at Ciampino may find them hard to find since they have been given parking spaces closer to the departures end of the terminal than to arrivals.[/I]
so it isn't just a few over-zealous coppers, it's part of a concerted campaign of state protectionism. Actually the old article is worth reading too - [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/may/22/italy]Fortress Italy pulls up the drawbridge to keep foreign investors at bay | Business | The Guardian[/url]
also, [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/oct/08/italy.transportintheuk]UK bus company's complaint unearths Italian cartel | Business | The Guardian[/url] gives more info on the tactics being used against them ... they bid for a Rome bus franchise only to find that the tender stipulated that bidders must have access to the depots to be eligible (and only the incumbent operator had this access!!!!)
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Charles Phillips;90162]The extraordinary thing abut this story (which I am not doubting) is that I can find [B]absolutely no reference to it[/B] in the Italian online press - even in the local Rome 'papers'.
That makes it even more bewildering in my opinion. Can anybody find me a reference to the story outside a travel forum or the UK press?[/quote]
you appear to be correct - not a peep either searching google.it or specifically on any of the national/local online press. However while searching I did find another little nugget, in an article (March 08) discussing Berlu's 'plan' to rescue Alitalia:
[I]Alitalia's smaller domestic rival Air One, whose offer to buy the carrier was rejected by the Prodi government, has said it is also ready to launch a new offer, but needs three or four weeks to inspect the ailing carrier's books first. British airport transfers company [B]Terravision has said it would be interested in joining a takeover group. [/I][/B]
hmmm ....
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Pigro - my reference was in reply to Chris Newton's post - I must get this "Quote " thing sorted......
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Ah, I see - but the "over zealous" bit would probably still have made me reply anyway, 'cos I have a big gob!!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Annec The politicians are us (forgive the grammer) The law is OURS. Why do we feel that we have to hand this over to a higher authority thinking we can't possibly be responsible enough to control our futures. The politicians must have every right to question judges. Most of the judges are so out of touch with what happens in the real world and see fit to go in their own direction because they feel they're above criticism from the commons. I don't see how they can make rational judgements out side of custom and practice. When was the last time they caught a bus, walked home after night shift had the bailifs knocking at the door. I remember years ago there was a case in court involving a former top world pop group duran duran. In the opening of the case he said ''duran duran I've never heard of them'' How can someone who has never heard of such a massively popular band. Sit in fair judgment. OOPS sorry for ranting again
The bigest problem with all this is us. We have all this power to control and decide our futures, shape our legal system. (and this is me included) The most any of us can be bothered to contribute to the greatest legal system in the world is for a miserable 50%of us to drag ourselves to vote once every five years. then go back to the telly and let the politicians get on with it.
Wasn't refering to a few over zelous cops I was reffering to the chief constables, who profess to get their messages from god, decide to ignore drug addicts, break 20 health and safety laws in a day. Climb up scaffolding again in contravention of health and safety legislation ,publish photo's of deceased people without permission. Then laugh in the face of us who dare to question them.
Stories like that make me wonder if I'm living in a modern European country where the rule of law applies or some banana republic.
The article implies that the police acted on their own initiative at a time when no one was in charge since the outgoing elected Rome administration had been dissolved and the incoming one not yet installed. There were similar suggestions when the tax authorities apparently took it upon themselves to publish everyone's tax returns on the internet recently.
I find it thoroughly bizarre that that, in an ostensibly modern democracy, Italian police and civil servants can do whatever they want in the period before and after an election and the public can only wait for politicians to take office and then hopefully force them to behave reasonably.
Al