9603 catastal categories, values & pools

I've seen various stuff on this across numerous threads, but no one thread fully covers all the questions below, so here goes ...

It's often suggested that a detached house with a pool is automatically classified as "luxury", i.e. catastale category A/1. However I've also seen a post (from Sebastiano) saying he thought a pool would automatically classify the house as a "villa", which is A/8.

My own place is a large, modern, detached house (built in 1995). I'd describe it (in laymans terms) as a "villa", but it is currently categorised as A/7 ("Detached House"). Its catastal value is just less than 50% of its approx. market value, and has not changed since I bought the house in 2003.

I will probably have a swimmming pool built within the next 12-18 months, so I'm trying to understand:

1) whether that will likely trigger automatic reclassification of the catastal category purely due to the addition of the pool

2) if so, would it be reclassified to A/1 or A/8 (or would this still be decided by the comune on a case by case basis)

3) if not, I assume that on completion of the approved works, the comune may optionally (?) do a "manual" reassessment. Is that likely in my case, where the catastal value is (I believe) pretty much up to date & within expected "tolerances"?

4) what practical implications would any reclassification have? I know it makes ICI more expensive (but I think that's based not on the catastral category itself but on the rendita catastale?), and I know that A/1 prevents 'prima casa' discount from applying ... is there anything else I should be aware of?

5) As far as I know, the catastal value is derived purely from the rendita catastale (value = (r.c. + 5%) x multiplication factor, where the factor is 120 for any house in the "A" category. That suggests to me that the r.c. is the "base" value, from which all other property values/taxes/classifications are derived. Is there any direct relationship between the catastal category and the rendita catastale within any one specific comune? i.e. on construction of a pool, is it the reassesment of the r.c. of the property that would trigger any change of classification from A/7 to A/8 or A/1?

TIA for any help on this.

Category
Legal

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 05/20/2008 - 12:38

Would it make any difference if Italy is going to get rid of the ICI tax anyway?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 05/20/2008 - 12:47

[quote=juliancoll;90028]Would it make any difference if Italy is going to get rid of the ICI tax anyway?[/quote]
well, I think thats for prima casa (residents) only, which rules me out ... and AFAIK it is still a vague election promise rather than firm policy ... and like I said, I think the tax paid on buying a house is much greater on an A/1 (due to it being ineligible for prima casa discount).

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 02:19

partly in reply to your question... ICI abolition is not a vague promise it is now due to be made law before June so there will be no ICI on prima casa properties from this year onwards

however there are 2 categories that will still have to pay and that is A1 and A8... there was an interesting prog ..well vaguely ...on this the other night... a thing on catastal values and the obvious villa...refered to as villa in sales talk and in descriptions but called an independent house for valuations... its a common enough type of situation here...in fact there is a minuscule amount...something like 2-3 % of all properties in Italy that are within the higher bracket catastal valuations...when its obvious it should be otherwise...

which might mean that if comunes loose the ICI income on property outside the luxury bracket properties they might well be inclined to go outside their offices and take a good look at the real world ... and see if they can generate a bit of income... so i would be cautious about your "villa with pool" remaining a detached house with large outside bath... saying that it would also be unlikely that the local comune officials most probably living in lux type properties would change things much...they don't want to pay ICI either

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 04:00

Does that mean that A/8 also prevents 'prima casa' tax discount on a purchase? I thought that applied only to A/1.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 06:06

[quote=adriatica;90047]partly in reply to your question... ICI abolition is not a vague promise it is now due to be made law before June so there will be no ICI on prima casa properties from this year onwards

however there are 2 categories that will still have to pay and that is A1 and A8... there was an interesting prog ..well vaguely ...on this the other night... a thing on catastal values and the obvious villa...refered to as villa in sales talk and in descriptions but called an independent house for valuations... its a common enough type of situation here...in fact there is a minuscule amount...something like 2-3 % of all properties in Italy that are within the higher bracket catastal valuations...when its obvious it should be otherwise...

which might mean that if comunes loose the ICI income on property outside the luxury bracket properties they might well be inclined to go outside their offices and take a good look at the real world ... and see if they can generate a bit of income... so i would be cautious about your "villa with pool" remaining a detached house with large outside bath... saying that it would also be unlikely that the local comune officials most probably living in lux type properties would change things much...they don't want to pay ICI either[/quote]
according to the agenzia delle entrate here in Ascoli,or at least their interpretation houses with pools will be automatically put into the category of villas ie. subject to ICI.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 06:47

pigro heres some heavy reading for you because its not as simple as it seems
go to 2.1 for prima casa

however i hesitate to quote these things because i have a feeling that there will be some changes in the new legislation when they get that set for June so this could all be well out of date in a couple of months time

[url=http://www.commercialistatelematico.com/nuoviarticoli/pubblici/861529-immobili.html]Il trattamento fiscale degli immobili[/url]

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 06:52

I suspect I've discouraged specific answers by rambling in my questions? I'll try again.
A. is the cadastral category derived from rendita catastale, or assessed separately
B. Who actually sets the rendita catastale/catastal category
C. who does any reassesments (presumably a geometra working for the comune?)
D. Would significant improvements to a modern house normally result in an immediate reassessment
E. Does addition of a pool to an A/7 automatically "promote" the category to at least an A/8 (or is this specific to the region/comune)

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 07:01

[quote=adriatica;90077]pigro heres some heavy reading for you because its not as simple as it seems
go to 2.1 for prima casa

however i hesitate to quote these things because i have a feeling that there will be some changes in the new legislation when they get that set for June so this could all be well out of date in a couple of months time

[url=http://www.commercialistatelematico.com/nuoviarticoli/pubblici/861529-immobili.html]Il trattamento fiscale degli immobili[/url][/quote]

Thanks Adriatica, our last posts crossed ... was getting a bit impatient because I've asked a couple of fairly complex questions recently which nobody seemed up for answering. Happy to work my way through the doc's, cheers for the help. A quick glance has already shown me one of the things that I was looking for - it mentions 80 m.q. or above as pool dimensions that would class the property as luxury.

In reality it doesn't matter as I'll just ask my Geometra (who also works for my comune too) ... but I always like to know the answer I [B][I]think[/I][/B] he should give before I actually ask him the question :-)

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 15:04

Slightly off the point - but relevant to an earlier worry of Pigro about ICI in another thread as to whether the abolition of prima casa ICI would result in the raising of rates on second homes.

I note today in our local paper (not available online except by subscription) that Berlusconi is now budgeting for a €2 [I]miliardi[/I] (extra?) subsidy to the [I]comuni[/I], to compensate for the revenue that they will lose through the abolition.

We shall see how this proceeds.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 05/21/2008 - 17:10

Unfortunately 4 billion euro in revenue will be lost.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 05/22/2008 - 02:53

noma... thats luckily in my opinion...the shortfall is to be made up by comunes having to balannce their books... those that were already working well will be fine...

to work for the comune in Italy is regarded as better than any private company work...with very short hours and no chance of loosing your position and to top it off ...the best pensions... allowing you to also have a full time job outside of your comune work... and also to take advantage of any works coming into your comune to push it the way of friends and family...

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 05/24/2008 - 04:38

I'm pretty happy with the way my comune has been spending my ICI. They've greatly improved the streets, the piazza, restored many beautiful old buildings in the centro, put in sewers and better street lighing out where I live. Maybe you've just chosen a bad comune to dwell in.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 05/24/2008 - 05:56

To be classed as luxury you must have at least four of the 10 possible luxurious things which inlcude, high quality stone to waist height on the stairwells, tennis court, swimming pool, etc etc .. cant remember all of them.... sounds to me like you have a villa.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 05/24/2008 - 08:03

[quote=ram;90241]To be classed as luxury you must have at least four of the 10 possible luxurious things which inlcude, high quality stone to waist height on the stairwells, tennis court, swimming pool, etc etc .. cant remember all of them.... sounds to me like you have a villa.[/quote]

thanks for that. What i currently have is an A/7 i.e. detached house. My original question was whether addition of a pool would automatically cause this to be reclassified as a villa (A/8) or luxury (A/1), but your reply helps me understand that it's not that simple/automatic - which is the answer I was looking for.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 05/24/2008 - 12:16

Hello pigro,
In answer to your point and as usual in this land of nonsense and paperwork there is no straight answer!
Firstly I brought my house over 5 yrs ago it wasn't habitable at the time and certainly didn't then or now have a pool. Guess what through my house was classified as a luxury house. It didn't even have floors, doors, windows, electrics, gas or anything which make even make it habitable at the time. So why did I have to pay 11% on the house price and 18% on the land? I still don't know to this day!
All I know is that they classified my whole house as habitable which is over 500sq metres and as any house that was over 240 sq metres I would have to pay the extra tax. HOW RIDICULOUS. We only live in part of the house and the rest is animal stalls.
As the total taxes were over 27.000 euro's I could of had a pool installed, at least have it would feel like I had a luxury house.
Anyway in this area of Le Marche the comunes are looking at any reason to tax you extra and if you installed a pool here you would definitely be reclassified as luxury dwelling and pay the extra taxes.
Mind you change your name to a Italian one and you might not get taxed as I have hear.
There's a awful lot of English around here now being taxed extra costs for various different reasons and I've yet to meet an Italian one who has been charged these so called taxes.:yes:

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 05/24/2008 - 15:22

Hi, and thanks for the feedback. my house is new build, fully finished, > 240 m.q. habitable, and was still classed as A/7 so I think the regions are dong this differently - or at least they are applying the letter of the law differently. Now I understand that (as usual) nothing is set in stone in these matters in Italy, I'll approach my Geometra in a confident manner, asking him to resubmit the pool application (we got one 5 years ago but didn't have the cash to proceed) and just "tell" him gently that his fee depends on us not getting reclassified!!

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/04/2008 - 04:16

Now that seems like the best approach to me Pigro. Meanwhile can anyone tell me where I can find a list of these catastal categories, including the name tags that go with the alphanumeric codes?
(Yes, what's in a name? I know, I know!)

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/04/2008 - 04:49

see [url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/italian-politics/5722-catastal-values-due-rise.html#post51957[/url] for the main 'domestic' categories with their Italian designations.

see below for full list with english designations
A/1=Luxury habitation
A/2=Civil habitation
A/3=Economical habitation
A/4=Low cost habitation
A/5=Very low cost habitation
A/6=Rural habitation
A/7=Detatched house
A/8=Villa
A/9=Castles and palaces with artistic and historical value
A/10=Offices and privates studios
A/11=Typical regional habitation
B/1=Colleges, boarding schools, nursing homes, convents, barracks
B/2=Clinics and hospital
B/3=Prisons and borstals
B/4=Public offices
B/5=Schools, scientific laboratories
B/6=Libraries, art galleries, museums, academies
B/7=Chapels and oratories not for public use
B/8=Basement or underground storage spaces
C/1=Stores and shops
C/2=Wharehouses and storage depots
C/3=Laboratories for arts and crafts
C/4=Buildings and premises for sport activities
C/5=Bathing establishments and spas
C/6=Cow sheds, stables, barns and garages
C/7=Closed or open sheds

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 06/10/2008 - 09:56

ICI on the news today says that A1, A8 and A9 are exempt from the 'no ICI on the prima casa' law...Many A7s I know of have pools and arent reclassified as A8... moreso if they are conversion jobs and were rural houses ... A8 seems to be preserved for the new build palazzone the Italians are so keen to build.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/11/2008 - 14:16

[quote=ram;91363]ICI on the news today says that A1, A8 and A9 are exempt from the 'no ICI on the prima casa' law...Many A7s I know of have pools and arent reclassified as A8... moreso if they are conversion jobs and were rural houses ... A8 seems to be preserved for the new build palazzone the Italians are so keen to build.[/quote]

That's interesting, I had never really thought of Berlusconi as a socialist. It would be a pity if the inclusion of A9 (castelli/palazzi di pregi artistici-storico) were to discourage people from buying and restoring such properties - after all they wont have much artistic or historical value once they have fallen back into the ground.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 10:06

Dear Pigro as a resident & first time buyer of a property in Italy, I bought an old farmhouse & done it up and put in a more than 80sm pool I was very concerned about your questions. So I went to a local lawyer and got the definitive answer!. Not that anything is definitive.Anyway he said:

If you buy a house as prima casa say A2 (villa civile), then despite whatever changes you make to it it remains as A2, which sounds fair otherwise noone would make any improvements to their property. Many of A1's attributes (villa di lusso & therefore cant attract prima casa tax reduction), such as flocked wallpaper, handpainted floor tiles, solid wooden doors etc. you dont need permission for and therefore the council wouldnt /couldnt charge you more ICI. However for extension work and new pool you would need building permission, a geometra acting as direttore dei lavori, who would also register the finished work in relevant catastal value to the comune and get your certificate of living (certificato of agibilita') which you need when you come to sell. & you would get charged more ICI, but only what improvements youve made, not on a jump into A1 category. After five years you can sell the property (if you sell before you must pay the tax difference between prima casa & seconda casa). If the house (this bit am not sure who decides I presume the comune) is now a luxury home (villa di lusso A1) thanks to all the wonderful changes you have made to it, its the buyer who will pay extra costs & wont be able to purchase it as prima casa. Is that clear?:eerr: I have read that even though you are not resident full time in italy you can be classified as resident if you spend more than 183 days here & therefore take advantage of tax reductions.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 10:28

Dear Friends after many hours of the internet I finally found the following 'agevolazioni 'prima casa' chiarimenti sulla corretta applicazione del regime - [url=http://www.condomini.altervista.org]Condominio sentenze norme leggi condomini[/url] - go to Prima Casa. On this page it explains what makes a house a villa di lusso. On the same website under agevolazioni prima casa another document covers the conditions in which a property can be classified as prima casa. Too much even to summarise here. Happy reading! :laughs: