9504 resident only bank accounts

It sounds almost too good to be true...just insist and see how you go the non-resident account particularly when you are an EU citizen does not make any sense... and keep us informed about the outcome. Best wishes

have sent them an email via their website asking for some justification of the rationale and for them to reconsider. Ain't holding my breath though!

Any information on their web site Pigro??? Sorry you have e-mailed them.

I bank with Monte de Paschi etc., etc.. They offer a completely different (and more attractive) set of tarriffs for residential customers than non-residential.

It would seem that Banca di Roma aren't alone in this practice......

We are resident and Bank with Monte dei Paschi...........having examind our bank charges we conclude that they are outrageous and are waiting to change banks. Someone on the Forum pointed out the advantages of banking with a newly formed group of banks. (Banca Intessa???) We have Banca S.Paolo in our area which is part of the group. Once the ATM's are linked we will tranfer our account...minimum charges if we do not actually go into the bank thereby saving hundreds of euros a year. Again we thank who ever posted this info.

We had the same issues when trying to open an account last year, without residenza everyone kept saying no. There was a Banca Intesa account for stranieri but we didn't have a branch in the centro (they have info on-line). We did get an account with BNL which costs under 9 euro per qtr with unlimited bancomat (teller use costs you a fee). Now that we have our residenza I will probably go to Intesa/San Paolo as they have "Zerotondo" which is practically free.

strangely, I never had any trouble when opening the standard current account .. they were happy to accept my business and rob me blind with the various monthly & per transaction charges!!

Have now found & downloaded the 46 page .pdf "bozza condizioni clienti" (details about the account conditions) ... am speed-reading them at present, still (thus far) don't see anything about residence being a pre-requisite. If I don't drink too much vino rosso I may get to the end; may even jump in the car and go back to the branch to enquire further. OTOH, last day of the holiday, do i really want to spend it that way? Pass the bottle ...

Well, that's the way banks make profits... at our expense and with our money. Nothing new... enjoy the rosso and don't worry, it's only money.....

Ok, so, no mention of non-resident exclusion after 46 pages. Called them up, they now explained that they tried to convert my existing account to the new one, but "computer said no" as it kept flagging up that the existing account was "non-resident" and this is what prevented conversion. The (very helpful) chappie had already emailed his boss asking for clarification ... hopefully they can fix this manually, or maybe we may be able to just open a new account instead of converting the existing one ... so the 1€/month dream isn't dead yet! Job done, back to the vino rosso now :-)

Yup resident accounts are normal.

My Zero account which is free if you stay out of the bank :bigergrin: is only for residents.

I guess it's like off shore accounts from UK banks. They have different charges then the same bank in the UK. More tax paperwork if nothing else.

update (in case anyone is interested) - have not heard anything further from my own branch yet, however I've had an emailed response from the complaint I made to the bank's website. They have stated (despite it not being mentioned in their 46 pages of conditions or their in-branch literature) that the "Genius" family of products are for residents only. However, they say that they have discussed my account situation with my own branch, and they are all in agreement that they can make some charges on my own account to offer charges similar to the terms of the account I wanted. They say that my own branch will be in touch shortly to explain the reduced charges that they are willing to offer.

Have to say, despite being pissed off at the lack of clarity on eligibility for this account, and dissapointed that I apparently don't qualify, I was pleasantly surprised to get a such a detailed and positive response from a named individual within the Bank group's customer service team within 1 week of submitting a general 'moan' to their website ... quite reassuring to know that someone actually reads that kind of feedback & goes to the trouble of contacting my own branch to discuss it & try to offer a solution. Still, no point getting too starry eyed over customer service until Isee what their offer actually consists of ....

We are with BNL and when we opened our account was told that the only one we could have as we were non resident was the stranieri account which charged lots of silly money couldnt even understand what the charges are for. When we went in last time they asked if we had residency which we now have and they offered a different account but it would take 30 days to organise, but hopefully will eradicate most of the charges.

As a point of interest our uk account now wants to charge a fee should we wish to keep on with our overdraft facility.

I'm not particularly well versed in EU regulations but you'd have thought that imposing punative banking charges on an EU citizen purely due to their country of residence would not be legal these days. Not that i've got the moal fortitude to even research that, far less actually challenge it should it prove to be the case :-)

Our (soon to be ex) bank has refused to give us a residents account even though we have been resident here for 3 years becasue we don't receive a regular wage from a company. Have decided now to move to a an internet bank which will allow me to check my statements when I want to instead of every 3 months (I am a control freak!)

As a nonresident you pay higher taxes and imposte on a range of things - ENEL bills, ICI etc, and banks are the same.

[quote=ram;89663]As a nonresident you pay higher taxes and imposte on a range of things - ENEL bills, ICI etc, and banks are the same.[/quote]

I thought that originally too, but ICI is higher for non-residents because the property (normally) isn't claimed as 'prima casa', rather than because of residency per se. I suspect the same is true for ENEL etc ( I should know as I pay the higher rate, but I can't remember the reason off the top of my head)? Its a subtle distinction (as the efect is identical in practice, you pay more), but worth making.

[B][I][EDIT - just checked my ENEL bill, and I was wrong on that score, they do say that I'm being charged for "uso domestico non residente" on tariff D3][/I]
[/B]
Whereas a bank account has no relationship whatsoever to ownership of property, and therefore any discrimination in availability for an EU citizen - based purely on residency - is, to my mind, more likely to be deemed illegal by Brussels ...

Yes but... prima casa is where you choose to be resident. If you are not resident in Italy, ie not fiscally resident in Italy - you are 'penalised' because you pay your tax on income in another country. So you cant have your torta and eat it. A conto estero has much stricter limits on withdrawals and is subject to more checks and balances for antiriciclaggio and so on. Its also an easy way for banks to make more money from 'rich' foreigners.

[quote=ram;89862]Yes but... prima casa is where you choose to be resident. If you are not resident in Italy, ie not fiscally resident in Italy - you are 'penalised' because you pay your tax on income in another country. So you cant have your torta and eat it. [/quote]

actually there's been a lot of debate on the forum as to whether that is in fact the case. I agree with you that part of the intent of 'prima casa' is to imply residency, but it's mainly about higher tax for second homes, and is also used to prevent abuse of capital gains exemption by developers etc. as I understand it.

Anyway, there is apparently some wriggle room on eligibility; there have been court judgements supporting the view that non-residents are just as eligible for prima casa discount as residents as long as it is their "only house in the italian territiories" and they have[I] the intention to become registered[/I] with their comune as resident (n.b. [B]not[/B] tax resident). it's the bit in italics where it all starts sounding a bit dodgy to me, and like I said, I do accept being charged more if my holiday home is classed as a second home (which in reality it is). Thought I'd mention the other view mainly FYI - do a search on posts by CMJ Oliver if you are interested in finding more detail.

[quote=ram;89862]A conto estero has much stricter limits on withdrawals and is subject to more checks and balances for antiriciclaggio and so on. [/quote] I'm not convinced on that score (at least not these days). All that kind of checking is automated, and (I thought) that for EU citizens the rules were common irrrespective of location these days. I'd also suggest that the most likely people in Italy to be shifting dodgy funds through their bank accoutns may actually be the Italian crim's as there are a lot of them about by copmarison to the stranieri!!

[quote=ram;89862]Its also an easy way for banks to make more money from 'rich' foreigners.[/quote] Ah, now I find it hard to argue with you on that score, lets leave it there!

Ah Pigro, its obvious you dont live in Sicily! Antiriciclaggio here is becoming a nightmare of book-keeping!
But, residence according to the Codice Civile is residence and all that it implies - ie more than 183 days in italy and therefore fiscally resident in Italy. Technically if you claim prima casa and apply for residency, you are stating that you intend within 18 months to become fiscally resident in that comune. - for Italians its less problematic because they are fiscally resident in Italy, even if in another comune. if as a foreigner you claim residence, you are liable for Italian income tax on any income etc etc etc, as your Italian address is your main residence and not your country of origin. Of course it all depends how efficient the guardia are........

As I said, I actually agree with you on the intent of the prima casa/residency stuff, however CMJ Oliver (a UK qualified Solicitor, who as understand it lives in Italy and works in an Italian law firm) has posted several times that the law is open to interpretaion, and has in fact been successfully challenged in some cases. Don't shoot the messenger!

Book-keeping - my sympathies on that front, I can imagine it was [I][B]always[/B][/I] a nightmare in Italy, and the new laws no doubt make it worse! ... but my situation doesn't involve any book keeping (by me), I just have a bank account. The bank are the ones who monitor the accounts looking for high value/repeat transactions etc. but you don't seriously think they have a team of guys reading through the transactions manually? It's a big server running automated software, so no justification for any greater effort to police a non-rsident account than a resident one?

So ...

I own a house in Italy. I paid the higher taxes to the govt. to aquire it; I pay the higher anual taxes to the comune to keep it. I have no real prob's with either - I see it as a way of the govt/comune ensuring that people don't just buy real estate and then sit on it without it being used; also a reflection that by not being resident I contribute less to the society overall in terms of presence, expenditure, earning etc. and therefore should contribute more in one off/anual tax as a result.

I pay higher tarrifs for my utilities - again no real complaint, I'm not there full time, and mainly visit in the mild weather, so I consume minimal units, but the cost to the utility companies of providing the service is the same - therefore a premium on the consumption can be justified.

But - my bank account (AFAIK) is not specifically a "non-resident" account, it's just a bog standard Italian current account which they are willing to give me as a non-resident. They then launch new accounts with much more attractive terms, but say I can't have it on residency grounds. I don't believe either of the above justifications for higher charges have any bearing on this; they have no higer overhead in providing/maintaining my account than any other .. .and I actually leave more cash in the account on average than would an average Italian. That's cash which they erode every month with their charges (and are free to lend others meantime, charging THEM interest of course), without paying me interest.

conventionally, when someone gets screwed, the screwer at least pays for dinner. I'm the screwee in this relationship, but the bank still expect me to take them to lunch every month :-((

I'm with ram on this one, and I don't think it is entirely unreasonable to treat a conto estero differently. Apart from anything else, the bank has to report all of its estero transactions to the Banca d'Italia (okay, this justifies a charge of about 10cents extra!). But from the banks point of view you are a larger risk (of running off leaving an overdraft).

In addition, this fiddling about with the word 'resident' isn't quite playing the continental European game. A person in Italy (also I'm pretty sure Germany and France, and no doubt the other mainland EU countries) must have a legal residence, at which they can be contacted for any court or criminal matters, and if they cannot be found there then the 'papers' are lodged with the comune and are deemed to have been served. Whever a European dweller moves, the ID card, driving licence, car documents, health card, permesso di soggiorno (for non EU) etc. are updated with the new anagraphical information.

This all seems very practical to me, and the whole basis of the day to day legal system depends on it. Ths is one of the problems with clandestines - they don't have a residence to be arrested from (or remanded to), so short of extraditing them there isn't a sensible method of dealing with less heinous crimes.

[quote=Charles Phillips;90010]But from the banks point of view you are a larger risk (of running off leaving an overdraft). [/quote]Except that I don't have such a facility, and AFAIK I have no means of racking one up on an unauthorised basis.

[quote=Charles Phillips;90010]In addition, this fiddling about with the word 'resident' isn't quite playing the continental European game. A person in Italy (also I'm pretty sure Germany and France, and no doubt the other mainland EU countries) must have a legal residence, at which they can be contacted for any court or criminal matters, and if they cannot be found there then the 'papers' are lodged with the comune and are deemed to have been served. Whever a European dweller moves, the ID card, driving licence, car documents, health card, permesso di soggiorno (for non EU) etc. are updated with the new anagraphical information.[/quote]
Agreed (in practice if not principle). But residency cropped up in this thread only to illustrate that 'prima casa' is intended as a discount for a first home as opposed to a discount for residents. While it may assume residency, it isn't always a prerequisite (see the judgement granting prima casa rights to Italian citizens living abroad).

Anyway, the bank have now offered me their 'best shot' (a derisory reduction of 1.5€/month on the €2.5/month charge for internet banking). They clearly have me by the short & curlies: I've now realised that any EU citizens rights stuff that I envisaged being infringed would solely protect the rights of a citizen who moves to (i.e. becomes resident in) another member state - it wouldn't apply to non-residents, so any company like a bank or whoever can charge me whatever extra they like without infringing any rights. I'd better shut up now or Aldo at the local bar will be slapping a 33% surcharge on my morning cappucino for being British (even if I [I]don't[/I] sit at an outside table and I am not loud, drunk, or 50+)

It's the free movement of labour. In other words cheap labour. Just look at the threats about EU lawsuits over UK wage laws. Seems people want to bring in workers from outside the UK and pay them not UK wages but home country wages.

On the Italians abroad. They are resident. They even have a section in the town list.

I still don't understand why people don't look at the other Euro zone countries. Somebody must have an internet bank that can handle payments to Italy. Pointing your browser to a .dk [etc] website instead of an .it isn't too much different.

[quote=NickZ;90025]I still don't understand why people don't look at the other Euro zone countries. Somebody must have an internet bank that can handle payments to Italy. Pointing your browser to a .dk [etc] website instead of an .it isn't too much different.[/quote]Agreed, but I asked about that specifically in a previous post on another thread (i.e.e whether anyone used a french/spanish/german bank account to pay D/D's in Italy) but I got no useful replies. Meantime my assumption is that the Italian banks (and probably the French/Germans etc. too) would still charge through the nose for such international transactions, until legislation prevents that - and I don't have the heart to scour two sets of bank T's and C's in two different languages (neither of which I really speak well enough) to find out how much :-(

Yes they do--- I have cllients who paid euros from a Dutch/Swiss euro bank account via cheque and they paid for the privilege of bringing money into italy as a 'receiving fee'... until Saint Berlusconi is fiorced to open up the archaic banking system to foregin banks we will be stuck in this time warp, but every time a bank tries to buy in, berlo decides that the Bank of italia will buy instead and carry on this protectionism which Europe seems incapabable of doing anything about.

interestingly Rosie A posted on another thread today that they are able to pay D/D's via a German bank for "next to nothing" ... and there was also mention a few days back about SEPA (single European payments Area) which should help ensure that euro denominated transactions will in future be more reasonably priced.

I have an account that costs €0 for a 3k balance (apart form the ever present €34.20 tax - free internet, free telephone banking (with English speaking operators) 36 free ATMs per year, use of all Post Offices or Banca Intesa in Italy, unlimited free banking operations, free SMS messages to notify account movements or internet access, 4.25% on amounts over €3k and a host of other stuff that just made it an obvious choice.
I needed an address in Italy, codice fiscale and identity papers.

are you saying that it is an account intended for residents only, which you have obtained without actually being officially resident? I thought you introduced yourself on another thread as having lived in Italy for 4 years - if so, you are presumably resident. Do you maybe mean that you obtained the account before moving permanently?

If you're saying that this account does not actually require residency (but merely an address, a C.F. and identity papers ... all of which a non-resident home owner would have) then please let us know more details about the bank and account name please.

In either case can you clarify "identity papers" - you're suggesting that this account would work for a non resident (at least if they didn't broadcast that fact) so I assume you simpy mean a passport?

[EDIT] final point on the "ever present €34..20" ... I've heard of several accounts that have zero/low charges, and I've heard no mention on these of such a mandatory fee. Is it govt. tax? if so, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the conditions of the account I started this thread to talk about. Can they just omit this charge in their literature?

would be happy to explain - [email]tim@timwills.com[/email]

[quote]final point on the "ever present €34..20" ... I've heard of several accounts that have zero/low charges, and I've heard no mention on these of such a mandatory fee. Is it govt. tax? if so, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the conditions of the account I started this thread to talk about. Can they just omit this charge in their literature?[/quote]
It's a government tax on all bank accounts. Mine is withheld at 8.55 euro quarterly.

have just arrived here and today opened the affor mentioned zerotonde account at bank intessa in the lake garda area, i am not resident, had only to give codice fiscale, and did not even need to deposit any money, to open, dont quite know all details as italian not that great, but seems pretty decent, only pay standard 3 euros per month tax, dunno, sounds ok

[quote=timwills;90373]would be happy to explain - [email]tim@timwills.com[/email][/quote]

Thanks for the offer Tim. Surely though, if the fairly innocent questions above can't be explained on an open forum, then it really can't be such an obvious choice? The €65 p.a. or so I currently get charged on a joint current account is simply not a big enough pain to justify anything remotely clandestine - I guess I'm just not sufficiently furbo :reallyembarrassed:

Apologies for anything sounding furbo. As I work for the bank I didn't want to make a direct offer in case it broke the forum rules.

[quote=timwills;90383]Apologies for anything sounding furbo. As I work for the bank I didn't want to make a direct offer in case it broke the forum rules.[/quote]Hit Tim - my apologies. All makes sense now, sorry for impugning your reputation so soon after you joined us! There is no problem in suggesting something commercial with which you are affiliated - as long as it's in repsonse to a genuine question or debate, and you are up front about your vested interest. In fact, I'd say that's oone of the best things here: actual advice from people who are 'doing' and have a better perspective on reality.

I chased you up because (a) it seemed a mite suspicious that, having volunteered the info, you were unwilling to answer open questions and (b) I hate to see a lively thread hit the brick wall of PM's or other off-forum info exchange when that info would likely be of interest to many other current/future members.

I'm still keen to have some clarification on how Italian banks check (or if they check) your resident status when opening a new account, provided you can supply a C.F., ID and an address. Your point appears to be that some banks at least may not bother to check (though I would imagine the C.F. would quickly provide confirmation of residential status if they could be @rsed to look?)

Since there is no demand for a 'permesso di soggiorno' the codice fiscale is seen as the clients registration to pay Italian taxes.
Tax on interest is deducted at source, as is the state tax of €34.20.
With our bank model, us financial advisers are responsible for verifying the identity of our clients. The anti-money law is very strict on identity now (we can go to prison for up to 3 years for false declarations) and the rules are changing frequently.
There are the new regulations on cheques (personal advice - do not accept a cheque that is 'trasferibile' as the new regulations are complex). There are also new regulations about account delegates (rather than a joint holder), for instance they cannot credit a non-transferable cheque, with them as payee, to the account. The cheque has to go into an account with the same name as the payee (or taken to the issuing bank and cashed).

Although the cash saving is minor the convenience of
- being able to speak in English (which in the end is an increase in security for the client)
- multi-channel access (via the internet, phone and your personal financial adviser)
- free SMS service
and clear charges (max €5 for unlimited banking transactions)are a big incentive.

so, are you saying that in general (not just the special case of applying via a financial adviser) any bank would have no way of identifying me as a non-resident when I applied (unwittingly of course, given the absence of anything to the contrary in their T's & C's) for a resident only bank account ... unless I declared this of my own volition? My existing account was organised for me by my estate agent prior to me owning a home (i.e. address) in Italy, so I wasn't closely involved with the nitty gritty of the application process, I just signed the several thousand bits of paper required ...

[quote=pigro;90254]interestingly Rosie A posted on another thread today that they are able to pay D/D's via a German bank for "next to nothing" ... and there was also mention a few days back about SEPA (single European payments Area) which should help ensure that euro denominated transactions will in future be more reasonably priced.[/quote]

Actually, we made on online Euro bank transfer (not D/D) to an Italian ENEL account. (It took us weeks to get them to answer us and let us have the details!)
We also regularly make Euro transfers from Germany to Italy to pay for goods for our business. All you need is the IBAN and SWIFT code. The charge is often less than if we pay onto a national account. :eerr:
I wouldn't advise sending cheques, as it's not safe.
However, transferring from Switzerland and Britain is much more pricey, since they don't have the Euro.

I cannot answer for all banks - but it sounds right.
I hope your agent explained the thousands of bits of paper!

rosie A - the European law is that transfers should cost the same within Europe for the same service, so you should be charged the same to transfer from your German account to a beneficiary in Italy as in Germany. If its less then good for you!
Since our transfers are free within Italy they are free within the Eurozone. It is the same for withdrawals from ATMs across the Eurozone.
As you say, and because it involves a foreign exchange transaction, anything outside the Eurozone incurs charges, which vary from bank to bank.

[quote=pigro;90401]so, are you saying that in general (not just the special case of applying via a financial adviser) any bank would have no way of identifying me as a non-resident when I applied (unwittingly of course, given the absence of anything to the contrary in their T's & C's) for a resident only bank account ..[/quote]

Then can ask for a residence certificate. Costs about 1 Euro from my town. I guess an ID card would count to. Enel asked for a residence certificate and it now seems the post office lost the one I sent :eeeek:

OTOH my local branch didn't ask for anything. I was there with my agent and she mentioned I was getting residence. That was that.

On the third hand. When I bought my car the dealer wanted an ID card that I hadn't bothered to get yet. So she phoned the agency getting the plates and basically said they said it was up to me and if I didn't have residency I'd be the one with the problems.

[quote=NickZ;90416]Then can ask for a residence certificate. Costs about 1 Euro from my town. [/quote]Yes, that was my point. I know that there are ways of hem checking (or me proving) my residential status. I wanted to understand whether them going down that road was a likely scenario or if it would be reasonable to assume that they want my custom and would be unlikely to ask for this kind of proof unless 'provoked'.

I think it'll depend on the clerk and if you give them a reason to doubt you.

The clerk at the post office wouldn't open me an account without proof. But he's a special case.