9721 Italian snakes

It could be a grass snake (non poisonous) or an adder (poisonous).

Certainly where I live there are plenty of grass snakes but the nearest adders are in a valley some distance away! I would ask your locals about the one you saw.

There are many different snakes in Italy.This one sounds like one we had inside our house last summer.They seem very common around this time but I haven't seen them at all in late summer.
If they have stripes that run along the whole body thats a good sign!This is what we saw.Oh and they eat rats and mice too!!!

You want big red Doc Martens boots to fend off serpents & a standard issue tin hat in case of a head-on collision with a carpenter bee. Add some full body armour to counter the mozzies and you'll be all set (well, as long as your new pet snake eats up all the rats ... otherwise its bicycle clips around the bottom of the jeans too).

Seriously though, ask the neighbours about local snakes and do tread carefully. Your 'garden' sounds a bit like mine, and I really can't see what I may be treading on most of the time. Mrs P. wanders about in flip flops in our jungle, but she's made of much tougher stuff than normal mortals and all gods natural creatures are afraid of [I][B]her[/B][/I]. I, on the other hand am a big jessie and don't want my tootsies nibbled by the local wildlife.

The big black things are completely harmless (even though I think they look disgusting). There do seem to be quite a lot of vipers around at the moment & although they are usually found in the long grass we did find one in our veggie patch. Although they are poisonous I have been told that they are only deadly to small children & animals so although you will want to be careful if you have either of those hanging around you won't need to panic too much if an adult is bitten although a reasonably quick trip to the doctors might be advisable!!! If you are really worried it might be usueful to buy some anti venom & keep it in your fridge

Chemists don't sell anti-venom any more, as the side effects can be harmful. You can buy a sort of kit, with syringe to try and suck out the poison (works also for insect stings), but our local chemist told me to go asap to the hospital if bitten by a viper. The fatality or not of a viper bite depends on many factors: the strength of the venom (depending on when it last bit something), where the bite was, the strength of the person who was bitten etc. Vipers are considered to be more dangerous when they emerge from hibernation (May - June) than later on in the summer when they've used up a lot of venom.

We have a lot of vipers nearby, and our cats "play" with them and bring them into the house. if we forget to close the door. I think we're on some sort of viper route from the field above us to the farm below, and they're a pretty common sight in summer. Much rarer for us are the black grass snakes, which aren't poisonous, though they can give a nasty bite if threatened. The baby serpents (bisce sp?) are also harmless.

If you use this link it may help:
[url=http://www.kingsnake.com/reptilia-italia/My_HomePage_file/serpenti.htm]serpenti italiani[/url]

I meant to ask also-what do you do when you see a snake? I suppose that IF you can identify it as non poisonous you can let it be and walk away but if you can't then what?

You might find these earlier discusions helpful as well:

[URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/gardening-agriculture/3445-snakes.html"]1. Snakes[/URL]

[URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/health-safety/1145-snakes.html"]2. snakes[/URL]

Only ones I know of tend to wear Armani suits,Prada sunglasses and hang about Estate Agents doorways looking for prey.

Too true, usually wearing eccentric footwear and with a ciggy in hand. The distracted look comes from trying to remember which attractive property in the window has "just been sold"

On a more serious note there are adders in Italy and I always wear wellies / boots and long trousers when walking through long grass. I have seen the effect of an adder bite on a 60ish lady and they were pretty drastic - vomiting, loss of consciousness and drop in blood pressure, luckily a doctor and nurse with the group and a nasty rash the following day plus puncture holes was followed by a quick recovery.

[quote=elliven;91020]On a more serious note there are adders in Italy and I always wear wellies / boots and long trousers when walking through long grass. I have seen the effect of an adder bite on a 60ish lady and they were pretty drastic - vomiting, loss of consciousness and drop in blood pressure, luckily a doctor and nurse with the group and a nasty rash the following day plus puncture holes was followed by a quick recovery.[/quote]

Very sensible advice about the footwear in wildish places, but remember that snakes are pretty timid creatures, and once they cotton on to the fact that something large and two legged which has a smelly grasscutter has invaded their patch they will usually move on. Apart from the wellies in wild long grass, it is imperative to sound the horn of your SUV repeatedly (to scare off snakes... or more likely simply because it is FUN with a good excuse!)

Vipers are not timid creatures. Grass snakes - yes. They scuttle off pretty quickly. But I've seen vipers rear up and attack (cats, brooms - whatever.) In fact, they are related to the cobra family, and will coil up and lunge at whatever they think is in their way. I leave grass snakes alone, but kill vipers if I see them outside the house.

Well I thinks thats appalling!
How do you know what species of snake you are killing? Vipers cover a large group some extremly endangered.If you were in the UK you'd be prosecuted for killing one.
I've been close to adders in Britain and Italy without them attacking me.What other types of wildlife are you exterminating? Bats because they may get tangled up in your hair? Insects because they may sting you?

Live and let live.

[quote=Maralyn;90958]Thank you everyone for your replies regarding my question about the big black bees.

I arrived in Italy on Sunday night and the first thing I saw in my garden Monday morning was a black snake abut 3ft long.

Not knowing a thing about snakes, can you please advise me
a) what sort of snake his could be
b) is it a poisonous snake
c) what sort of snakes should I be looking out for
d) are there many sorts of snakes in Italy.

Having seen the black snake, and never having seen one before, I am dubious about walking in the grass (won't say lawn - no, that is the wrong word for the grass in my garden!) with flip flops on.

maralyn[/quote]
no the black ones are perfectly ok we have several here they nest in some old walls,there are a number of varieties of snakes in italy but only the vipers are potentially dangerous what are dangerous (very) are the hornets they appear like giant wasps deaths by hornet stings in europe have quite a significant numbers unlike snakes who actually want to get away from you.if you are allergic to wasp /hornet stings be very careful and it's advisable to carry adrenaline jab with you which any doctor will prescribe for you to get from a pharmacy

[quote=English teacher;91175]But I've seen vipers rear up and attack (cats, brooms - whatever.) In fact, they are related to the cobra family, and will coil up and lunge at whatever they think is in their way.[/quote]
I'm curious: when you say you have "seen" vipers native to Italy aggressively attack cats and brooms, do you mean that you have actually observed this behaviour in front of you? Or do you mean that you've seen this on TV? Or perhaps you mean that your neighbour told you that it happened to his friend's cousin when she was 12 and you once heard about it happening to a cat somewhere in Italy?

Since you say "cats, brooms - whatever" are targets for such aggression on the part of vipers, that implies you have not only seen at least one such attack on one broom and one cat, but other attacks on other objects and animals (the "whatever"). Care to elaborate?

You say that vipers are "related to the cobra family". In fact, the two types of snake share a taxonomic classification at Suborder level only: they're both [I]Serpentes[/I] - as are, of course, are the grass snakes which you permit to live. Vipers are members of the family [I]Viperidae[/I] and cobras belong to the family [I]Elapidae[/I].

In any case, I'd question your apparent belief that cobras are naturally aggressive and will attack without provocation. That's not the consensus of those who deal with the animals.

But then the consensus amongst contributors to this thread is that the common black snake is harmless, while it seems a common view amongst Italians that because they're snakes, they are therefore dangerous. Thus, there are plenty of Italians who will kill them on sight or swerve to run over one they see crossing the road.

Congratulations on your progress towards assimilation. :rollingeyes:

Al

Re the sting in the tail of this thread: remember the rule of thumb... most creatures only attack when provoked!

Yes Allan, I've seen them attack cats, brooms etc in front of me. Not as told by someone else, but in front of me, outside my house. Maybe you don't have them in your part of Abruzzo, but there are plenty here.

BTW, I once saw a cobra in Hong Kong. There was a group of us walking down a road, and at the side a black cobra rose up and started to sway. There was no provocation, and we were a good couple of metres away. Maybe it was frightened, but it wasn't about to run away. I'd say that this behaviour is similar to that of vipers: they also rise up and attack rather than try to escape.

[quote=Charles Phillips;91021]Very sensible advice about the footwear in wildish places, but remember that snakes are pretty timid creatures, and once they cotton on to the fact that something large and two legged which has a smelly grasscutter has invaded their patch they will usually move on. Apart from the wellies in wild long grass, it is imperative to sound the horn of your SUV repeatedly (to scare off snakes... or more likely simply because it is FUN with a good excuse!)[/quote]

YES,i ilked that ok folks just keep blasting your SUV horn on the way to the estate agents and the snakes will disappear like magic

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

i like my snakes, and dont mind sharing my garden they eat ants which suits me!
The snakes lived here before I did so as long as we look where we are going and dont tread on one, dont worry, we find they usually slither off when they know you are around.
We have had one behind our compost bin for the past few years (I assume its the same one that comes out every year?) because every summer it gets friendly with my hose pipe, we play a game I go to water the orto and he goes back in the compost, then when hes sure i have gone hes out again,its a bit like hide and seek, hes very persistent but the hose pipe is definately not interested!

i dont know how you'd behave if someone held your head down with a broom but I bet you'd be pretty p....ed off!

That doesnt mean you were out looking for trouble does it?

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Berty my pet boar was very cross to be ousted from watching the telly this evening, in his favourite chair, come and pin him down if you wish , hes gone off to eat our veggys now in the orto, along with his mates, just hope they keep the partying down tonight. These animali dont you just love em! Well I do.
A

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I saw a viper at 1000m last month but it sped off when I moved. Here in the Valley there have been fatalities: a woman bitten in the neck when she was taking hay from the fiennile. There was also a woman badly bitten as she was having a picnic on the grass by a snake which came along afterwards - so much for the notion that they always move away from vibration and humans!

[quote=Torchiarolan;91238]Re snakes attacking brooms, yes I have seen that too, when we enclosed some land beside us and turned it to garden, we found snakes on the patio etc, tried to hold one down with a broom head, so as to pick one up to dispose of it ,but as soon as the broom neared it, it went very aggressive, repeatedly striking out.[/quote]
Interesting how people interpret behaviour.

I suspect the point myabruzzohome was making is that the snake, from its perspective, is responding to an attack by [I]you[/I]. Because it is not defenceless - unlike almost all native British snakes - it doesn't behave in what Brits consider the "proper" manner and slither away when an enormous creature (you and your broom) attacks it. This is perceived by you and others as being aggressive behaviour, but it's actually only defending itself. In evolutionary terms, it's entirely sensible for it to respond as it does: if you have a weapon in your pocket, it's usually safer to stand up to an attacker rather than to turn your back on him.

Also in evolutionary terms, it makes absolutely no sense for snakes to be aggressive and attack people without provocation. Producing venom has a "cost" and it's far better to use it on prey than in defence. Also, it's always risky to attack something much larger and neither cobras or vipers actually eat humans. Which is not to say that no one is ever harmed by a snake. It happens; sometimes because people can do really stupid things, sometimes because a person and a snake are both in the wrong place at the wrong time and the human's actions are misinterpreted by the snake.

Suggesting that anyone who cares about snakes must be of the "all life is sacred" school of philosophy is to set up a straw man. Rats, mosquitos and even boar (maybe [I]especially[/I] boar, given the damage they do around here) are all fair game in my book, but a policy of killing snakes on sight because "better safe than sorry" seems to me unjustified and irrational.

But then I wonder if the prevalent Italian attitude to snakes isn't, at foundation, related to religion and the equation of the devil with a snake in the Bible.

Al

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

[quote=AllanMason;91269]
But then I wonder if the prevalent Italian attitude to snakes isn't, at foundation, related to religion and the equation of the devil with a snake in the Bible.[/quote]

Jeez, I've read some crap on this forum, I really have, but this type of post pisses me off big time because it strongly suggests this [B][U]is[/U][/B] the ITALIAN attitude towards snakes!

There are no ITALIANS participating in this thread so far - No ITALIAN has offered any opinion or suggestion that ITALIAN attitudes towrds snakes are related to religion or the equation of the Devil with a snake in the Bible. :masked:

Around our area, Lago Trasimeno, local men kill snakes when seen no matter what species and we get out our Collins Field Guide. Reptiles & Amphibians of Britain and Europe!
Take it as read Snakes move but Vipers don't, so if it moves don't shoot it!

So no-one is able to have an opinion on Italy or Italian attitudes unless they are Italian?

Most people on this forum are well read, educated and intelligent so they wil naturally have formulated their own opinions on many subjects including on Italians and Italian attitudes.

if you can't tolerate people expressing an opinion on something that they have no cultural link too that rules out most great art and literature including Shakspeare and Dickens!!!

[quote=juliancoll;91277]Jeez, I've read some crap on this forum, I really have, but this type of post pisses me off big time because it strongly suggests this [B][U]is[/U][/B] the ITALIAN attitude towards snakes!

There are no ITALIANS participating in this thread so far - No ITALIAN has offered any opinion or suggestion that ITALIAN attitudes towrds snakes are related to religion or the equation of the Devil with a snake in the Bible. :masked:[/quote]

Chill out Julian, Allan was only venturing an opinion. Last time I looked that was allowed, just as you are allowed to disagree, though your post would be more interesting if you said [I]why[/I] you disagree

Whilst I cannot speak for Al, may I suggest that he was only trying to broaden the discussion, which would have been interesting.Serpants the Bible, Italians inherant fear of snakes(?), would have made for an interesting thread..
A

If its a viper then depending on whats happening you kill it. The dog the other day was pawing one in the drive and rather than have her bitten the only other option was to kill it. Rather that than a run to the vet for antidote.
Always better to avoid a problem.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

And how does anyone [I]not [/I]know and why not have a debate without people throwing their toys out of the pram?

No-one is insulting Italians by discussing issues relating to them.This is what adults do all the time and if you want to pick an argument with anyone use a pm rather than hyjacking interesting threads like this one to vent your spleen!

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Sorry but it has to be said Torch - lighten up!

Thanks for the defence, Torchiarolan. I was going to respond to MAH's post, but then thought "why bother".

Obviously, the topic of snakes arouses great passion among us. One thing I would say, is that for many of us who permanently live in Italy, vipers are a potential danger. When I first arrived here, I didn't have any views one way or the other about them. But then I saw how they act, and was told by Italians why they are dangerous (and I'm talking about Italians who know rather than theorise about vipers - farmers and chemists, for instance). I don't go running around looking for them, and I take all reasonable precaution to not get in their way. But I don't like them right outside my house.

One trick we heard to get rid of them humanely, was to get a couple of turkeys. We tried that one year, but the turkeys were useless. They're supposed to peck at the ground, and their feet are supposed to send out vibrations etc. What happened in our case is that the turkeys strolled off down the road to fraternise with our neighbour's chickens. No deterrent whatsoever. Still, you might be pleased to know, Torchiarolan, that we did the decent thing at Christmas. Stringy and tough, they were too.

The other trick is to burn old shoes on their path. I don't actually have any old shoes that I've stopped wearing, but maybe that's worth a go.

So, MAH, you can probably see from this that I did try not to kill them, but gave up when plan turkey failed. Given the large quantity of vipers (15 or so last summer) that cross our path, I don't think for one moment we've permanently resolved the situation. So you can rest assured that vipers are not endangered round our parts. Neither is any other form of wildlife, as I don't go after anything else. Bats, flying insects, grass snakes - they're all left alone.

[quote=myabruzzohome;91290]So no-one is able to have an opinion on Italy or Italian attitudes unless they are Italian?[/quote]
But it wasn't an opinion - was it? :winki:

[quote=myabruzzohome;91290]Most people on this forum are well read, educated and intelligent so they wil naturally have formulated their own opinions on many subjects including on Italians and Italian attitudes. [/quote]

What proof do you have that most people on this forum are well read, educated and intelligent? :eeeek:

I'm not well read, educated or intelligent, so does that mean your statement is (your) opinion, or fact? Having an opinion on Italian attitudes is fine if you have solid reason behind them.

[quote=myabruzzohome;91290]if you can't tolerate people expressing an opinion on something that they have no cultural link too that rules out most great art and literature including Shakspeare and Dickens!!![/quote]

Of course I can tolerate (and welcome) opinions being expressed - with or without a cultural link and I hope that you're also able to tolerate that an unread, poorly educated person of below average intelligence like me is able to hold a different opinion to you and still be able to express it.

P.S. Who is Shakspeare? :bigergrin:

[quote=annec;91291]Chill out Julian, Allan was only venturing an opinion. Last time I looked that was allowed, just as you are allowed to disagree, though your post would be more interesting if you said [I]why[/I] you disagree[/quote]

I am chilled out Anne. :smile:

[quote=Angie and Robert;91305]Whilst I cannot speak for Al, may I suggest that he was only trying to broaden the discussion, which would have been interesting.Serpants the Bible, Italians inherant fear of snakes(?), would have made for an interesting thread..
A[/quote]

No reason why it cant continue to be an interesting thread Angie, but how do we know Italians have have inherant fear of snakes? Is there any proof or reason that the [B]prevalent[/B] Italian attitude towards snakes is perhaps related to religion and the equation of the devil with a snake in the Bible? :eeeek:

[quote=juliancoll;91323]But it wasn't an opinion - was it?[/quote]
No, it wasn't an opinion. It was more along the lines of musing.

In spite of the encouraging figures for church attendance in Italy, this is fundamentally a very Catholic country and it's not too difficult to see how much of what happens in Italy and many of the attitudes of Italians can be traced back to the Church and the teachings it seeks to inculcate in everyone from a very young age.
[quote=Torchiarolan;91308]Still would have been just a load of old cobblers based on supposition though, and how does anyone know that the Italians have "an inherent fear of snakes"[/quote]
I'd like to point out that I did not say that I believe most or all Italians have an inherent fear of snakes. I have no idea if the general level of fear of snakes in the Italian population is any greater than that of any other nation, so it's not a comment I would make. What I do believe is that it's far more likely for snakes to be killed for no good reason in Italy than it is likely for this to happen in, for example, Britain.

I must say that I do find it amusing when someone whose chosen avatar is a picture of someone in a fancy-dress Saint Patrick outfit (at least that's what it looks like to me) says it's rubbish to suggest a connection between Christianity and people's attitudes towards snakes.

Of course, the legend about St Pat banishing the snakes is set in ancient Ireland and Italy is a modern European country where everyone has modern European attitudes. There's absolutely no possibility of any association between snakes and [URL="http://www.italiancookingandliving.com/travel/festivals_events/snake_festival.html"]modern Catholicism [/URL] in today's Italy.

I am intrigued by the outraged responses to my suggestion that religion and, by implication, the Catholic church might have some responsibility for atavistic attitudes lurking at the back of people's minds. Perhaps feelings about wildlife in general and snakes in particular are indeed the one and only aspect of life in Italy and what goes on in people's heads here that is not influenced in any way whatsoever by religion. But, to use the measured and chilled-out language of earlier in this thread, I think that's probably both "crap" and "a load of old cobblers".

Still, I'd be happy to consider the possibility that the way Italians tend to deal with snakes has nothing to do with the Church and is entirely due to a blend of ignorance and superstition.

To return to the main subject, I was interested to read about English Teacher's turkey experiment. If it had worked it would, of course, be just another way of killing snakes. I'm sure the birds would not have treated a harmless black snake any different to a viper, but somehow it seems to me fairer. Which I recognise is not rational. :rollingeyes:

I'd not heard of using turkeys for pest control before. Always thought they were so thick they were incapable of doing anything useful other than sitting on a platter and looking good. I had, however, heard of using [URL="http://www.guineafowlinternational.org/articles/considerations.php"]Guinea Fowl[/URL] as a snake patrol. Since they are basically wild African birds with a minimal veneer of domestication, Guineas are supposed to have very good instincts for dealing with snakes. They're also supposed to do a good job of spotting and eating any ticks that might be lurking in the grass. Finally, they have a reputation of being excellent guard animals which create a huge ruckus whenever someone or something unfamiliar ventures into their territory. However, the volume of the noise they create is one of the main things one needs to consider when thinking about getting Guinea Fowl. Being birds, they aren't over-endowed with brains, so they can apparently get themselves into a state of what sounds like mass-hysteria if something as dangerous as a plastic carrier bag blown by the wind should appear on their patch.

In view of what's gone before, I apparently need to attach the caveat that all this is "theory" from books and so therefore probably of minimal relevance.

Al

[quote=juliancoll;91325]No reason why it cant continue to be an interesting thread Angie, but how do we know Italians have have inherant fear of snakes? Is there any proof or reason that the [B]prevalent[/B] Italian attitude towards snakes is [B][COLOR="red"][I]perhaps[/I] [/COLOR][/B]related to religion and the equation of the devil with a snake in the Bible? :eeeek:[/quote]

No maybe there isn't any proof or reason... but certainly in the valleys up here the locals are all very wary of snakes. You also ask "how do we know Italians have have inherant fear of snakes?" Well they will tell you not to trust a [I]vipera[/I] and they know all the places where they are generally found. These are people of the land and the mountains and if [U]they[/U] are 'careful', then [I]I'm[/I] not going to disregard anything they say or advice they may give. Their 'care' when in and around snake habitats could quite well be interpreted as an inherent fear!
I don't see anything wrong with being afraid of snakes (for whatever reason) ...

On a lighter note, anyone know where I can buy a pet mongoose in Puglia?

[quote=Carole B;91329]I don't see anything wrong with being afraid of snakes (for whatever reason) ...[/quote]
Nor do I -- other than for the fairly abstract reason that I believe being truly fearful of anything is less than healthy. Still, as you suggest, there's a fine line between fear and having a rational and very healthy respect for something that can be dangerous.

I would never criticise someone for being afraid of snakes; it seems to me entirely reasonable for your neighbours to be wary of them. Nor do I have any problems with Geotherm killing a viper that could have harmed his dog.

But the behaviour that does cause me to think less of people (as if that matters a jot) is the sort of thing described earlier in this thread by Noble and what Torchiarolan says his builders did with snakes they encountered. I believe that unthinking, automatic slaughter based on atavistic fear is never admirable or worthy of defence.

Al

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Anybody got any good snake recipes?

what about "vipero al vino" or "biscia al balsamico"

just kidding!

[url=http://www.rattlesnakerecipe.us/recipes.htm]Rattlesnake recipe[/url]

and if bitten

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux5XyZaDE7c]YouTube - How to Survive a Venomous Snake Bite : How to Use Extractor to Remove Snake Venom[/ame]

Sally, there are no Rattlesnakes in Italy and YouTube says the video no longer available.