9699 Solar Heating

Which province? My installer does it but he's pretty busy and I don't know how far north he goes. He's fully licensed for new gas installs and if you'll want a gas meter you'll need somebody like that. So check who ever you get can do the full job or you'll risk having to get a second company to file all the paperwork for added cost.

Other then that it'll likely be the same person doing the rest of your heating system.

The Province is L'Aquila

I think thats too far north for him. If he ever fits me in I'll ask.

But any fully licensed installer should be able to do what you want.

[quote=Celanese;90800]I'm new to the forum, just bought a shell of a house to finish and am currently designing plans. I want to put solar panels in for Domestic Hot Water and underfloor heating and i'm looking for any help and advice, i've seen the ENEL website and I've got some contact addresses of companies in Italy either up north or in Calabria - does anyone know of companies that do such installations in (or near) Abruzzo. Have got a local friendly architect but before I talk to him I wanted to get as much information as i can[/quote]

You'll need an thermal engineer to calculate your needs and the area you'll require (of solar panels) to optimize the equipment. Making it as economically viable as possible. When you know the quantites involved you can then get quotes for the panels. As the £ is low try www. navitron.org.uk.

Any good reputable plumber can install solar panels. You're asking to pay more taking the companies advertised on Enel's site.

[quote=lotan4850;91056]As the £ is low try www. navitron.org.uk.[/quote]
Just wanted to mention that I placed an order with Navitron recently and the goods were delivered to our rural Abruzzo house three weeks after they got the money. It took about a week for Navitron to receive from the manufacturer the heat storage cylinder I'd ordered and another ten days for the pallet to make the journey from Rutland to Abruzzo. Cost of shipping two complete systems was £250.

There was a snag in that they forgot to pack the controllers, but those were sent as soon as I pointed out the omission.

All the tubes made it in one piece, by the way.

Al

[quote=AllanMason;91057]Just wanted to mention that I placed an order with Navitron recently and the goods were delivered to our rural Abruzzo house three weeks after they got the money. It took about a week for Navitron to receive from the manufacturer the heat storage cylinder I'd ordered and another ten days for the pallet to make the journey from Rutland to Abruzzo. Cost of shipping two complete systems was £250.

There was a snag in that they forgot to pack the controllers, but those were sent as soon as I pointed out the omission.

All the tubes made it in one piece, by the way.

Al[/quote]

Hi Alan,
I am thinking of buying a solar storage system from Navitron and combinining it with utility log-burner & underfloor heating. I would be very pleased to know how you get on with the install & subsequent running.

Tanto grazie

[quote=chrisnotton;91064]Hi Alan,
I am thinking of buying a solar storage system from Navitron and combinining it with utility log-burner & underfloor heating. I would be very pleased to know how you get on with the install & subsequent running.

Tanto grazie[/quote]

What ever allan is doing he should be as you should consider installing an accumulator tank; this means you can save energy to when you need it and makes living more comfortable. Like photovotaics if you don't use the electricity generated immediately then there is no saving and a waste of an investment. The same applies to a solar/wood system without a storage system. The gas boiler will kick in way too early than it would with an acc. tank. The smaller the storage the more you'll have to fire/fill up the wood boiler and forever be carting in wood to it. Hardly economical or comfortable!:smile:

We have abandoned the plan to get solar panels and instead are relying on wood pellets to heat water and rads.The stufe/boiler alone will cost about £4,000 so another £3,000 outlay on solar panels just wasnt feasable.

Our problems with solar were manly concerning lack of space inside and not wanting a pressurised hot water system with accompanying problems and risks.

Another issue for us is that as a rual house we could easily be at risk of having the panels stolen when we were absent.This happened with our copper pipes so I imagine the panels would 'dissappear' too.You need also to consider the risks with calcium in the water which furs up pipes.

As far as accumulater tanks these seem also to be called thermal stores and heat banks!

I am thinking that we would be best to have one instead of the hot water cylinder.They seem to be better to use with pellet boiler/solar heating.Is that right?

If heating a 5 room house what size thermal store should be fitted?Space is limited.this is very confusing so any simple explanation would be welcome.

Sorry to answer your question with another! We are thinking of doing the same thing -- only quote has been very very expensive even though radiators are already installed. Could you give me an idea of what you expect to pay for the entire installation of the pellet heating? Thanks

Now I'm confused !!!!!! When "Myabruzzohome" says he's ditched plans for solar heating in favour of a wood (pellet burner) and then talks about an accumulator or thermal store. I thought thermal stores were only for solar heating to store the heat to be used during the night or when it's cloudy. I thought a pellet burner is like a gas boiler, you can put them on a timer to have heat whenever you want it. Help!!!!

cassini is an expert on boilers in the pellet sense but as we have also installed that type of system might well be able to help

a pellet boiler at least ours does have its own capacity within that holds hot water...enough say for a shower...albeit fairly long one before the temp of stored water drops and it kicks in...unlike gas pellet boilers take a while...say ten minutes or so to get into full running order...ie pellets have to be pumped into the burning chamber and get going... so a storage system is not a stupid idea ... although i think somewhat an exaggerated backup ...although again with solar it would be well worth while...

the reason i say this is that while the boiler is hot and running its more efficient to my mind to store a lot of water...

thanks to allan we now have the option of installing the same solar system and i guess we will both be reporting on its efficiency...which i somehow think will be fine... but also how easy Italian plumbers have coped with installation and if that runs as expected...

somewhat surprised to hear costs so high... ours cost around the e2500 mark... ok we know the people in the shop ...but its from a local chieti firm here in abruzzo and i know we got discounted but not that much... installation...again it was within all the work being done at the time and it would be hard for me to suggest a fixed figure... and also the plumber is a friend of ours as well so might be less than realistic...

what i have learnt from italian locals... i know i am not supposed to mention any italian connection ... but afraid i do live here... is that boilers of our sort with big hoppers... not the living room types are more than happy with low quality burning products...ie we can buy eastern european pellets for about euro 3 per 15 k sack...the only difference i have noticed with these...apart from cost and color is that they stay in much better... ie the boiler relights after a much longer period...

a problem for us is the fact that overnight with high quality pellets and a thermally efficient house...its old... the boiler did not fire up overnight and in the morning i would sometimes find them being pumped in and not being alight... most probably there are more expensive boilers that have ways around this...self igniting types and we need to talk to the company to see if there is some extra to add in that sense...

however talking to another italian ...there are loose pellets you can buy which are priced per hundred kilos... you need a dry place to store them ...but these will work out much cheaper again... have yet to buy them ..but will report back if i do... apart form that there are the olive options...

at the moment all i can say of the system is that using pellets alone... we are burning a 3 euro sack every three days for hot water...which means showers and washing up for three people...none of whom are that green ...in the sense that water...especially hot water is not regarded as a luxury....

our system is an integrated gas and pellet system and soon to be solarised... to me its simple and convenient to manage and unlike many things one does i would do the same again if i had to...

FWIW I was quoted about 3K for a high end boiler that could burn basically anything. Wood,pellets or sensa [olive waste??] Everything else would be a big step down in price. Of course it depends on how big your space is.

Again for what it's worth. This week Carefour has a solar hotwater system for 1400. Designed to be hooked into your existing system. Only one panel and a 150 litre tank.

Thanks...that's a hell of an improvement on the 30K we have been quoted (not by an Italian or English company I might add!)!

Celanese,
I'll do my best to answer your question.
1) Yes, a good pellet boiler will function virtually as automatically as a gas boiler - buffer tank or no buffer tank. Abruzzo's point is that it will usually function much more efficiently with a buffer tank of stored hot water. This will allow a longer, stronger, hotter and therefore more efficient burn, rather than the boiler 'short cycling', i.e. switching itself on and off all the time. (Adriatica's comments above show why short cycling is especially undesirable with pellet boilers)
2) If you want to hook up a solar hot water system in tandem with either a gas boiler, or a pellet boiler, the minimum you would expect to do, to make the system work at all, would be to have both inputs feeding into a dual coil DHW cylinder (this is a conventional DHW cylinder, but the two coils allow more than just the usual gas boiler as input). In the case of pellet boilers, this would still leave you with the short cycling problem with regards to central heating. The system could power your CH, but not efficiently.
3) Dual coil systems are very typically used to combine solar with gas.
4) All the experts and the well known manufacturers recommend that a buffer tank is a better option than a dual coil cylinder where solar is linked up with any kind of wood burning appliance, including wood pellet boilers. Here, you may use a single, multi purpose tank, or two discrete tanks to feed your DHW and CH.
5) Apologies if this obvious to you already, but with a dual coil cylinder it is the coils that heat your DHW and with a buffer, the stored water heats the coils.
Hope this helps. With a bit of luck, Iotan might chip in and correct me if I've got anything wrong. Check his threads - he has a lot to say on this topic!

Thanks lupo, that was all very clear, I still haven't decided what to do but i'll try to find lotan's threads like you suggest

Hi Celanese, I forgot to mention that, like you, we are restoring a shell. We're putting in a mid price (well, slightly upper mid price) solar and pellet boiler system by Viessmann. They have an agent based in Rome who deals with Umbria and I'm sure he, or another, deals with Abruzzo. The advantage with companies like this are that they design and manufacture the full gamut: heat pumps, underfloor, photovoltaic and solar panels, tanks and cylinders, pellet boilers and control units and so their systems are particularly easy to integrate. In our case, the agent more or less designed and specified our system gratis. Anyway, they have a very helpful and informative website with lots of green case studies and green systems for you to peruse.
P.S. It took me about a year and a half to figure out our system ... You can always PM me if you want to know more!
[url]www.viessmann.com[/url]

The biggest saving is in the underfloor heating, whatever system you use to heat the water.
I run mine with solar (but have an expensive gas boiler to 'top-up'). The boiler is on a timer that comes on for 4-6 hours on winter evenings - so the sun gets the chance to heat the water and if there isn't any the boiler keeps us in comfort. 6 Panels, 1000 litre tank etc... = €9,000 Installation another € 5,000. Annual cost for a 400 m2 house = €400 - 1,200. Annual saving around € 3,000. Result happiness.
Afraid L'Aquila is too far for our local plumber, but be prepared to wait for a good local one, they are always busy!

[quote=lupo;91102]Hi Celanese, I forgot to mention that, like you, we are restoring a shell. We're putting in a mid price (well, slightly upper mid price) solar and pellet boiler system by Viessmann. They have an agent based in Rome who deals with Umbria and I'm sure he, or another, deals with Abruzzo. The advantage with companies like this are that they design and manufacture the full gamut: heat pumps, underfloor, photovoltaic and solar panels, tanks and cylinders, pellet boilers and control units and so their systems are particularly easy to integrate. In our case, the agent more or less designed and specified our system gratis. Anyway, they have a very helpful and informative website with lots of green case studies and green systems for you to peruse.
P.S. It took me about a year and a half to figure out our system ... You can always PM me if you want to know more!
[URL="http://www.viessmann.com"]www.viessmann.com[/URL][/quote]

Thanks for the reply, sorry so be stupid. . .what's PM ?

celanese....in reply to PM question if you click on LUPO at the top of his posting you will find a drop down list appears...click on send Private Message and its like an internal internet system only he recieves your message....you then have to keep an eye out where when you are logged in under welcome (your name ) there is a notifications listing... if you get a message from anyone it will be highlighted there...

you can also just go straight to your notifications area... and selct send a private message and put in the name and message...dont forget a title...

I think we have almost certainly chosen the Calimax Twist wood pellet heater for our place as it looks ok and has capacity to heat small house/water.We don't have the option of a boiler room due to lack of space so we must choose a model that can fit in a living room.

Looking at the specs it seems to come with a heat exchange.Does this mean that we only need a dhw cylinder as well or is a thermal store/accumulater still required?? Confused!

Help!

My tuppence (for what it's) worth.

All these sophisticated heating systems are great; at commencement of any building project you should think of the envelope (meaning external walls. external roof and ground floor) the structure.

What you should be trying to do is insulate the house as much as possible and then add 50% more . Incorporating this is not easy in an existing structure, a ruin is easier and new is the easiest; and not all have come to Italy to live in a new modern house.

There are however methods available for different levels of fabrication; this may eliminate or reduce the size of your boiler and the level of sophistication of the heating system to an acceptable level and cost including running costs.

Insulation is the most cost effective operation you'll ever invest in; you will recoup this cost quickest of any other investment - the more the better there is no thickness too great - in my book.

What you should be aiming to do is .....
1. Insulate external walls with a min. of 14 cm*
2. Insulate the roof with a min. of 35 cm*
3. Insulate the roof with a min. of 15 cm* in the ground floor.
4. Reduce thermal bridging
5. Use windows with a u-value of min 1Kw/m2 K, 0,8 is better 0,5 better still.

*We are talking insulation thicknesses not wall thicknesses just to avoid any confusion.

To eliminate completely a heating system you'll need insulation at the following min. thknesses 30 cm (walls) 45cm (roof) 20cm (grd flr). Naturally this is easier to incorporate in a new structure rather than an old. Windows should be at 0,5 Kw/m2 K.

We built new incorporated 1-5 above (easy) and our heating/DHW costs for wood were €600 + gas mostly for cooking were €300 = €900/annum. In retrospect I should have increased the insulation thicknesses and reduced the need for underfloor heating. But it's a bit late now.

My tuppence worth!

!:smile:

Hi Iotan,
Any advice on types of materials and applications for the above? What if I want my limestone walls to stay solid enough to take wall plugs for shelves etc.? Is there a plaster, for example that incorporates insulation material?

[quote=lupo;91177]Hi Iotan,
Any advice on types of materials and applications for the above? What if I want my limestone walls to stay solid enough to take wall plugs for shelves etc.? Is there a plaster, for example that incorporates insulation material?[/quote]

Lupo,
Yes there are products on the market place one called termolan - a lime/ cement plaster incorporating cork insulation. I have spoken to their technical staff to get a grip on it's composition and u-value. We had a difference of opinion as to vapor transgression and I would not personally use this on internal walls; external yes. Also thicknesses could be excessive to arrive at a high u-value.

Ultimately you should be trying to avoid the transgression of vapor through the structure this can be done in a number of ways (eg. 2 cm of cement based plaster, plastic vapor barrier, polystyrene insulation, et cetera), there is an ongoing debate as to the manner in which this should be accomplished. I'm old school and I prefer that water doesn't first enter the structure of the building and secondly any vapor in the air of the building is not not allowed to transgress through the structure and that external humid air cannot enter the structure. Then suddenly the building cannot "breath" and is where the debate lies; I could go into more detail but I won't bore you.

I have used successfully on refurbishments both external façade and internal face insulation normaly the external insulation has a higher thickness than the internal. Covered externally with a thin plaster or any other façade covering and internally with a thick plaster 2,5 cm thick; this would be more than enough to support wall shelves and kitchen cabinets. This reduces your internally applied thicknesses and gives you an adequate u-value; using say 5cm of insulation material allows you to hide services and boxes for switches and sockets. Avoiding channeling into the existing (in your case limestone walls) structure.

However it does not address thermal bridging (TB) which can be considerable if insulation is not carried out in an conscientious manner - TB for a structure can be the equivalent of leaving a 1.2 metre square window open all year round!

Hope this helps!:smile:

[quote=NickZ;91081]This week Carefour has a solar hotwater system for 1400. Designed to be hooked into your existing system. Only one panel and a 150 litre tank.[/quote]
[quote=simone-non-martini;91087]Thanks...that's a hell of an improvement on the 30K we have been quoted (not by an Italian or English company I might add!)![/quote]
I wouldn't even try to defend the prices charged by some of the companies in the solar energy field, but you need to be careful when comparing systems.

I believe that the system Nick is talking about is the form of solar water heating most often seen in hot and sunny climates: solar panel and cylindrical stainless steel tank in one unit mounted on the roof. There's nothing wrong with this if all you're expecting is "free" hot water in the summer, but it does have its limitations. For example, I don't think it's the most appropriate form of solar water heating for our house because it can get very cold here in winter and I don't want the hassle of draining the solar system and disconnecting it from the house's DHW supply every winter and then doing the reverse when the danger of freezing is past. You also need to consider whether your roof will be capable of supporting the weight of system and the water it contains. On the plus side, the systems are mass produced and so very cheap. Or at least just about as cheap as things get in the solar field. :rollingeyes:

I have no idea what you would be getting for your 30K, but I should hope it would do a lot more for you than supply 150 litres of hot water when the sun is actually shining!

Al

You point out that many of these methods do start to prevent a building 'breathing' which is what we are working towards with our old stone house.

Having removed cement off limestone which has been so damage its needed replacement we have seen first hand what happens when moisture is trapped in stone.Is there insulation material that can be added to lime plaster ?Hair is added normally but I suppose thats not hugely efficient!

We have had new wood double glazed windows put in and insulation on the roof but as we wanted to keep the original appearance of a pitch roof its just a layer of that foil stuff.

There seems to be a big conflict here between retaining original material/features and saving on heating costs.We have resolved the issue in the UK by keeping the boiler down on minimum setting and wearing jumpers !!!not very ideal.

One area I think could be insulated is the gaps between arches in the old brick ceilings.Ours are filed with old lime/sand earth mix but I suppose a replacement of those clay balls could improve insulation?

Interesting

Yes,
With our limestone building and three rubber stamps on the paper work about the historic and special nature of the house and its setting, we wont be using external insulation! Still, interesting stuff for those with stucco or other types of rendered finish. I've heard somewhere about polystyrene balls added to the mix, but that, intuitively, doesn't really convince or appeal. Like MAH, we'll probably rely on our sweaters. Mine will probably be particularly efficacious, once I have finished all the plastering in them...

[quote=myabruzzohome;91197]You point out that many of these methods do start to prevent a building 'breathing' which is what we are working towards with our old stone house.

Having removed cement off limestone which has been so damage its needed replacement we have seen first hand what happens when moisture is trapped in stone.Is there insulation material that can be added to lime plaster ?Hair is added normally but I suppose thats not hugely efficient!

We have had new wood double glazed windows put in and insulation on the roof but as we wanted to keep the original appearance of a pitch roof its just a layer of that foil stuff.

There seems to be a big conflict here between retaining original material/features and saving on heating costs.We have resolved the issue in the UK by keeping the boiler down on minimum setting and wearing jumpers !!!not very ideal.

One area I think could be insulated is the gaps between arches in the old brick ceilings.Ours are filed with old lime/sand earth mix but I suppose a replacement of those clay balls could improve insulation?

Interesting[/quote]

The problem is more complex than so....

You don't make any mention where you have removed the cement plaster internally or externally or both faces?

a). Internally only water vapor has been slowed down or stopped moisture movement is entreing the structure from the outside in causing damage to the structure over time. Maybe issues with roof drainage and the like.

b). Externally only vapor is being held inside the structure and not able to evacuate to the outside and as there is no vapor barrier internally then vapor is free to condense in the structure. Causing danage as you described.

c). Both faces. moisture maybe trapped between but in the construction phase this will dry out without any problem if water penetration is avoided from other sources.

There are a number of issues that need to be addressed.

1. One needs to stop vapor entering the structure from internal heated areas and transgressing outwards. This is best done using plastic vapour barrier, polystyrene or min 2 cm cement based plaster there are other methods.

2. The external coat face needs to be less hermetically sealed so to speak. This means any water in the structure will transgress across the wall section outwards eventually drying out the wall.

3. Water penetration into the wall from leaking roofs and guttering, down pipes must be eliminated as these cause the biggest problems regarding moisture; so should be maintain on a regular basis. 2 above allows the structure to dry out outwards and stops warm water filled vapor moving through the structure and condensing in the structure.

The structure "breathes" outwards as we do evacuating vapor.

So you should when insulating try to have a vapor barrier internally and a less hermetically sealed barrier externally allowing the wall to dry outwards ("breathing"). Alternatively both barriers the same as I would apply. Giving the best energy efficient structure.

Hope this helps.
:smile:

[quote=lupo;91204]Yes,
With our limestone building and three rubber stamps on the paper work about the historic and special nature of the house and its setting, we wont be using external insulation! Still, interesting stuff for those with stucco or other types of rendered finish. I've heard somewhere about polystyrene balls added to the mix, but that, intuitively, doesn't really convince or appeal. Like MAH, we'll probably rely on our sweaters. Mine will probably be particularly efficacious, once I have finished all the plastering in them...[/quote]

Lupo,

Not only rendered and stucco houses - after insulation it is possible to finish off with a brickwork, stone façade. However wall thicknesses will be substantial issue.

Arrrrr.... The cost (heating) of these culturally historic buildings of Italy owned by the British community. In this case it's a question of wrapping up warm and looking for a cheap energy source with a high degree of sophistication for the winter months.

Lotan

... I take this as an endorsement Iotan!
P.S. Your second post on vapour transgression is especially helpful, thanks.

l will need to report back to you once we have some heating installed and workin lontan

Last Jan I did not find our house very cold! This may be me fooling myself!Ground floors are bricks on hardcore and soil! Walls 2 meters of stone.One wall with no window faces East so the sun hits it early and it feels warm to me. Also there is a hill behind us then mountain.Trees all around and a steep ravine which we sit above.It could be the position of the house is helping.

Other houses 'modernised' were much colder than ours (this is without heating)and it takes ags for them to warm up whereas ours warms quickly in the Spring.

I am with you all the way in encouraging people to insulate their homes.Next time we'll start from scratch!!No more romantic ruins for me!!

[QUOTE=timwills;91120]The biggest saving is in the underfloor heating, whatever system you use to heat the water.
I run mine with solar (but have an expensive gas boiler to 'top-up'). The boiler is on a timer that comes on for 4-6 hours on winter evenings - so the sun gets the chance to heat the water and if there isn't any the boiler keeps us in comfort. 6 Panels, 1000 litre tank etc... = €9,000 Installation another € 5,000. Annual cost for a 400 m2 house = €400 - 1,200. Annual saving around € 3,000. Result happiness.
Afraid L'Aquila is too far for our local plumber, but be prepared to wait for a good local one, they are always busy![/QUOTE]
Tim
Does the cost you quoted include the gas boiler as well? Also how well is you house insulated?

Yes it includes the gas boiler, also the gas we use for cooking. I turn the boiler off around March and on again around November.
Our winter apartment is pretty much underground with ridiculously thick walls, so very well insulated. Half the apartment is a large day room with 43 windows and a terrace overhang, so it gets winter sunlight, but is shaded in summer. We need a little stufa in there to heat it up (and make jacket potatoes!).

[quote=timwills;91266]Yes it includes the gas boiler, also the gas we use for cooking. I turn the boiler off around March and on again around November.
Our winter apartment is pretty much underground with ridiculously thick walls, so very well insulated. Half the apartment is a large day room with 43 windows and a terrace overhang, so it gets winter sunlight, but is shaded in summer. We need a little stufa in there to heat it up (and make jacket potatoes!).[/quote]
Many thanks Tim for the answer, as it makes your costs a lot clearer. From what you have said, the house is 400 sq mtrs, but in the winter you resort to an apartment area. This is obviously the main expense for heating @ circa 80% of your energy use in the winter period. The solar is not really contributing that much with overcast skies etc. The cost spread of 400 - 1200 euros is very wide to work estimates on, but I appreciate that your winter apartment is underground, so has a higher level of insulation factor than many other properties.
These are all facts that people need to know when deciding their heating systems, as to say you heat 400 sq mtrs for 400 - 1200 Euros per year could be a little misleading.
Do like the jacket potatoes idea though, we have to cook ours in the outside bread oven!!!!!

Thanks geotherm you saved me the effort: I was busy looking up sun radiation co efficients for central Italy to work out how much timwills was getting from his panels. I was just about to ask him where he got his 300% efficient panels mine are just 44%. I can only preheat the water to the wood boiler during the winter.

No way I could heat my 18 month old 300m2 super insulated (compared to Italian houses) house for €400. Last year alone for heating and DHW cost us €6/700 for wood (100 quintale) and €300 for gas (cooking mostly).

I think the whole thing Lotan, is for everyone to say the area they are heating in the winter months, with whatever combination of systems that they have installed. As we all know the cost of heating a house/part in the winter is the largest expense here at circa 80% of the energy bill, then I think that should be the cost criteria/living area. We could have 500 sq mtr houses and live in 150 sq mtrs, so better to be honest when expenditure is quoted in relation to the area used or being heated

Size is only part of it. The coldest it got here last winter was -4 one night. Most other nights it was above freezing. The ground floor that is the coldest part of the house is about 10C with no heat on all winter. The middle floor is a little warmer. It's not that hard to raise the two upper floors to comfortable levels.

Higher up or other weather issues can lead to much colder winters.

Apologies for the confusion and any appearance of dishonesty I was only recounting my (happy) experience. Of course anyone looking for a full heating and hot water solution would need to do a thorough analysis.
The costs and savings are highly varied because they are based on only two years, the first had hardly any winter and the second had no sun from September to January!
I didn't want to overload the discussion with details, but they are there if needed.
Presumably the option of moving into a smaller area in winter (and discouraging winter guests) remains a major way of cutting down the heating costs!

We would have liked to do geothermal but we are surrounded by trees and have no ponds or lakes.
Best of luck to all.

[quote=lotan4850;91304]Thanks geotherm you saved me the effort: I was busy looking up sun radiation co efficients for central Italy to work out how much timwills was getting from his panels. I was just about to ask him where he got his 300% efficient panels mine are just 44%. I can only preheat the water to the wood boiler during the winter.

No way I could heat my 18 month old 300m2 super insulated (compared to Italian houses) house for €400. Last year alone for heating and DHW cost us €6/700 for wood (100 quintale) and €300 for gas (cooking mostly).[/quote]

Lotan: that's very cheap for wood. We pay anywhere from 11 to 13€ per quintale.

[quote=lotan4850;91304]€300 for gas (cooking mostly).[/quote]

That seems awfully high. I know I'm on my own but I don't eat out much, cook all sorts including baking and boil an incredible amount of kettles for my pots of tea :-) (and washing up and to top up baths) and spend €35ish every 2.5/3 months on a bombola.

I paid about 13 too. Further south of here they don't pay by weight but by truck load. Last winter it worked out they were paying more then 13 Euros per.

A large bomba just for cooking lasted me close to 3 months. That was less then 30Euros per to.

[quote=timwills;91415]Apologies for the confusion and any appearance of dishonesty I was only recounting my (happy) experience. Of course anyone looking for a full heating and hot water solution would need to do a thorough analysis.
The costs and savings are highly varied because they are based on only two years, the first had hardly any winter and the second had no sun from September to January!
I didn't want to overload the discussion with details, but they are there if needed.
Presumably the option of moving into a smaller area in winter (and discouraging winter guests) remains a major way of cutting down the heating costs!

We would have liked to do geothermal but we are surrounded by trees and have no ponds or lakes.
Best of luck to all.[/quote]
Thanks Tim. I must admit it was a little confusing re the costings for energy. Here it cost us about 1100.00 Euros over the last year in total for the geothermal system, with the house at a constant 20C in the winter. With Lotan's house which is much higher insulated then I think it would have cost him around a similar figure. Normally for a 300 sq mtr house reasonably insulated we would expect the electricity cost for a geothermal unit to be circa 1500.00 extra to the normal electricity bill.
Lotan has a good deal on his wood as it is around 12 Euro per quintale here. Am still trying to use the 50 quintale I bought 3 years ago!!!!!

[quote=English teacher;91421]Lotan: that's very cheap for wood. We pay anywhere from 11 to 13€ per quintale.[/quote]

English teacher; the norm is €10/quintale locally. I buy uncut and unsplit delivered to the door and do the cutting and splitting myself so I buy at €6-7/quintale depending on the farmer. And then on top of that I do a 3 year deal for 100 quintale/year for 3 years. Gives the farmer a target and a guaranteed income.

The reason for cutting and splitting myself is naturally a saving of between €3-4/quintale but I can then dictate the length and size of my timber which is all important in the drying and firing process to get the maximum energy out of the wood in the boiler. There is of course a cost for the log cutter and splitter but I feel this is negligable.

I hope that explains!:smile:

[quote=sueflauto;91423]That seems awfully high. I know I'm on my own but I don't eat out much, cook all sorts including baking and boil an incredible amount of kettles for my pots of tea :-) (and washing up and to top up baths) and spend €35ish every 2.5/3 months on a bombola.[/quote]

sueflauto: naturally my gas boiler fires up also from time to time for space heating and DHW during the winter so it is rather difficult for me to be precise how much I use for cooking. I assumed as the boiler worked very intermittently that most was for cooking I may naturally be wrong as you pointed out. However €300 for gas per year isn't too extreme.

:smile:

Lotan, I'm impressed! You must spend hours and hours doing all that cutting and splitting. Ours is delivered ready cut, which explains the extra cost no doubt. I think it's also clever to pre-arrange quantities with your supplier. Last year we got through about 50 quintale more or less, so doubt we'd be of much interest to our farmer.

[quote=English teacher;91470]Lotan, I'm impressed! You must spend hours and hours doing all that cutting and splitting. Ours is delivered ready cut, which explains the extra cost no doubt. I think it's also clever to pre-arrange quantities with your supplier. Last year we got through about 50 quintale more or less, so doubt we'd be of much interest to our farmer.[/quote]

Ahh... you see English teacher after 15 years using wood fired central heating in Sweden it takes me a measly 2 days to cut and split 100 quintale for my purposes with a guillotine I brought with me from Sweden. Clever stuff the swedes; that's a saving of between €3-400s per season less the electricity. And I dry my wood faster, get more energy out of it and can fill my boiler to maximum capacity - all those advantages outweigh the 2 days hard work as you call it.

see: [url=http://www.perwikstrand.se/vedmaskiner.asp?nav=16080000]vedmaskiner vedklyv vedkap vedtransportör - Per Wikstrand Ab[/url]

If you don't use your head your body pays for it!!

So not so much of the hard work as you might have thought.
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;91474]Ahh... you see English teacher after 15 years using wood fired central heating in Sweden it takes me a measly 2 days to cut and split 100 quintale for my purposes with a guillotine I brought with me from Sweden. Clever stuff the swedes; that's a saving of between €3-400s per season less the electricity. And I dry my wood faster, get more energy out of it and can fill my boiler to maximum capacity - all those advantages outweigh the 2 days hard work as you call it.

see: [url=http://www.perwikstrand.se/vedmaskiner.asp?nav=16080000]vedmaskiner vedklyv vedkap vedtransportör - Per Wikstrand Ab[/url]

If you don't use your head your body pays for it!!

So not so much of the hard work as you might have thought.
:smile:[/quote]
Wow:
Motor:
5,5 kW (7,5 hk)
El-anslutning:
380 V, 3-fas, 16
That is too much power for me! Do they have a smaller single-phase model??

Pip pip

Thanks Lotan. Interesting - my husband is fixated on Sweden and I have to say, the houses we've seen there (internet, not up close) seem remarkably warm. Triple glazed windows, wood fired boilers: I think the Swedes could teach us a thing about economical heating. Many thanks for your useful post.

PS: Have you seen the film Fargo? Supposed to be set in a Swedish-speaking community in the USA. Two things stick out about the film: endless "ja - ja ing" which got a bit wearing after a while; and a wood cutting machine, into which was fed a very unfortunate person. Was that the sort of machine you've got? A bit dangerous in the wrong hands!

[quote=chrisnotton;91497]Wow:
Motor:
5,5 kW (7,5 hk)
El-anslutning:
380 V, 3-fas, 16
That is too much power for me! Do they have a smaller single-phase model??

Pip pip[/quote]

Chris, They do a single phase splitter if I remember rightly the problem is the cutting, so it'll be back to the chain saw to avoid the 3 phase connection.

Everytime you touch the wood; it doubles your manual input; the machine I use cuts and splits in one go; in Sweden I had a transporter direct into the wood store; so eliminating two manual labours; but I used 3/4 times as much wood to heat the house. Here 100 quintale is about 18m3 is "a doddle". I just have the wood tipped outside the wood store with the cutter/splitter at the entrance and hey presto 2 days later I've finished.

:smile:

PS: Have you seen the film Fargo? Supposed to be set in a Swedish-speaking community in the USA. Two things stick out about the film: endless "ja - ja ing" which got a bit wearing after a while; and a wood cutting machine, into which was fed a very unfortunate person. Was that the sort of machine you've got? A bit dangerous in the wrong hands![/quote]

Having lived in a cold climate country I have imported nearly all the techniques used in Sweden, insulation, accumulator, wood burning stoves, solar panels et cetera including the wood cutter when I built our house (completed 18 months ago). Our heating requirements are 5Kw thus the low heating costs but this is easier to do from new, refurb. is slightly more difficult and slightly more expensive.

Ps the machine in Fargo was a chipping machine not a log cutter/splitter as my link.
:smile:

Big day here on solar heating front!!
Just commissioned hot water system. Using a 1200x600 radiator 1.14 Kw mounted inside a wooden casement with twin wall polycarb roof fully insulated. We've arranged this on the side of the house to get adequate rise and fall so we wont need a pump. We can sit under it when its very hot or raining. Some would call it a porch but because we're in Italy we call it the Ferarri !
Ok its not the most efficient system in the world but it supplies us with hot water for showers washing up etc throughout the summer when its too hot to light the stuffa. AND ENEL DON'T GET A PENNY!:laughs: