9693 Briton imports Road Rage!

As a non resident but one who has visited southern Italy eight times in the last year, my initial impression of Italian driving was the usual one of disbelief. However this has gradually changed and can now see the merits of the more 'positive' driving style and lack of any serious road rage. I can now truly say I enjoy driving in Italy although it is still full of surprises!

The one caveat is that a lot still drive too fast for the conditions and unfortunatley I have witnessed two accidents in the past year one of which was fatal. So yes some elements of their driving are good but like anywhere speed kills.

Italy's road fatilities figures are much higher than those of the UK,which has amonsts the lowest fatility rates of any major western country.

Make of that what you will, but i do enjoy the driving experience in Italy more so than in the UK.

Hi Giovanni

I take your point but it is very hard to have a fatal accident when travelling on UK roads where the average speed (esp. for London) is the same as for a horse and cart! They are so jammed with traffic, have so many speed controls and so many unexplained road/lane closures.

When I arrived in Italy 4 years ago the only thing I did not like was the dirving, it worried me that everyone went so fast and nobody bothers with seatbelts.
I think in time you get used to it and act accordingly,(expect to meet someone on your side of the road going too fast)
When my ex comes over to visit the kids it amuses me when he shouts and swears, but the fact is if you swear at one you have to swear at all of them because they have been taught to drive like this, and while its different to our way its normal to Italians, and nearly having a crash means you have'nt!
Italy has one of the highest "death by road" rates,, in the world,and maybe the government should review the safety aspect of the current drivng practices and make changes but even if they did it would take years to phase in as you cannot re-educate the older generation, who dont know they are doing anything wrong, and the younger generation have learnt from these people.
But I always wonder how they behave if they have to drive in another country, like Uk for example where the white line is used to seperate the traffic, and straying over it is not normal, do the Italians believe in the phrase "when in Rome?"
I wonder!

I have been here 2 1/2 years and seen the aftermath of about 8 accidents; one fatal.

Over time you do get used to the bumper hogging, overtaking on blind corners etc but the one habit, which always makes me cringe is the child standing in the passenger well or sitting on the passengers lap or even sitting on the drivers lap. The Italians are very protective of their children so I don't understand why they don't worry about launching them like missiles through the windscreen in even a minor shunt.

Funniest thing that happened to my English friend, when she moved over to Italy, was when she stopped when the traffic light went red.

The driver of the car behind her got out and explained, [in no uncertain terms] that in Italy, when the light goes red it means that the next 5 cars are allowed to pass it.

.

I've been married to a driver who likes to be out in front for forty scary years, so here in Italy nothing much has changed. I'm used to competitive driving! But what does worry me is the cavalier Italian attitude to the safety of children as passengers. A country that adores children is prepared to risk their lives by sitting them in the front of cars, or in the back, with no safety measures. A friend collected her 5 year old from school and the child peeled off her coat and cardigan saying she was too hot. An Italian mother admonished my friend for allowing the child to take her coat off and then proceded to put her own small child, into the front seat of her car and drive off...neither of them with safety belts...Ahhh this is Italy!

[quote=alan h;90756]...in Italy, when the light goes red it means that the next 5 cars are allowed to pass it.[/quote]I had it explained to me as an "advisory" signal - rather like an amber in the UK. I have to say that I find the general lack of aggressive driving rather pleasant though. I was in the UK last 3 years ago and thought that the driving there had become incredibly aggressive during my 4 years absence. Here, when you commit a minor transgression (oh, ok - cut someone up then) it is completely forgotten about 100 metres up the road. In the UK, you would be chased for 5 million miles so they could scream abuse at you.

[quote=Aretina;90726]

They also need to be in front - let them go. The important thing to remember is to be decisive when driving because Italians will 'read' what you are doing. They also have a different approach to 'courtesy', there is nothing personal but they do not acknowledge if you let them in and likewise do not expect any courtesy in return. In fact they always look completely baffled when we have tried to 'thank' them for giving way etc...
.[/quote]

I find the opposite. Too much courtesy. One guy last week half ran a stop sign last week then stopped to let me go. I was tempted to tell him it would have been easier if he wasn't in the middle of the intersection :eeeek: People do wave if you flash your lights to signal radar. Or if you let them in.

Most people will pass if you let them. It's only a small number who sit back there and draft.

It all depends on what you're used to. To me it is just normal city driving. People are used to tight spots and drive that way. Doesn't matter if it's in the city or a country road.

[quote=Aretina;90726]They are fast, but I think much more skilled than drivers from the UK.[/quote]
I don't know what you consider "skilled" driving, but I've seen a lot of very stupid behaviour by drivers in Italy. The most obvous fault is that far too many drive far too fast for the conditions. As has been pointed out here, the road fatality statistics for Italy are pretty bad. Various interpretations can be put on those numbers, but suggesting they prove how wonderful Italian drivers are is a real stretch.

Anyone who thinks Italian drivers are skilled should make a trip north and spend a day driving on German autobahns. The difference is amazing.
[quote=Aretina;90726]They have an annoying habit of driving far too close to the back of your car yet I have not seen an accident here in 5 years.[/quote]
One of the first changes I made to my driving habits is to start ignoring a lot of what's going on in my rear view mirror. I'm certainly not saying that I don't check before pulling out to overtake, but I've decided there's no point worrying about the idiot 30cm from my back bumper in town or the prat flashing his lights at me from a kilometer back on the Autostrada when I pull out to overtake a lorry doing 30kph.

If you've really not seen an accident during your five years in Italy, you've either been very lucky or you don't get out much. On one memorable trip from the Swiss-Italian border to Abruzzo alone, I saw two multiple car collisions and one collision of car with guardrail. Roadside floral tributes are not rare in Italy.
[quote=Nielo;90738]...the one habit, which always makes me cringe is the child standing in the passenger well or sitting on the passengers lap or even sitting on the drivers lap. The Italians are very protective of their children so I don't understand why they don't worry about launching them like missiles through the windscreen in even a minor shunt.[/quote]
I think there are various factors at work here:

First, Italians do believe that they are very skillful drivers. They therefore believe they will not be involved in a collision which will launch little Tito through the windscreen.

Second, many people have no feeling for basic physics or the forces involved when two cars collide; they don't understand that it is all but inevitable that Tito will fly through windscreen if another idiot suddenly drives out of a side street and the car driven by Tito's loving papa goes from 50kph to 0kph in a fraction of a second.

The third factor is the prevalent belief here that it's God's will if something bad happens. That easily leads to an attitude that there's no point being concerned about safety (whether on a building site or in a car). Indeed, trying to prevent accidents and being concerned about the safety of our children verges on the sacrilegious if you believe that God is looking after them.

Al

Hi Al

I certainly get out but dont spend my days patrolling the autostrade. I guess up to now I have been lucky, But, I do agree about Italians fatalistic approach - that God and the V. Mary will protect them. I was trying to suggest regional etc. differences to our lives in italy on my last thread. 'I was thinking'

The italian way of driving is certainly different and I dont see how an individual can change it. However, my main point was that the English drivers approach to this was instant aggression which could so easier led to him being transformed into a juggernaught (sp) sandwich!!

[quote=Aretina;90726]:This is how I try to explain Italian driving - The Italians have a reputation for 'different' driving and yes it is. They are fast, but I think much more skilled than drivers from the UK. They have an annoying habit of driving far too close to the back of your car yet I have not seen an accident here in 5 years. They also need to be in front - let them go. The important thing to remember is to be decisive when driving because Italians will 'read' what you are doing. They also have a different approach to 'courtesy', there is nothing personal but they do not acknowledge if you let them in and likewise do not expect any courtesy in return. In fact they always look completely baffled when we have tried to 'thank' them for giving way etc....[/quote]

I agree with you entirely, Aretina. I love driving here though admit it possibly helps having driven in some more challenging parts of the world before Italy, after which Italy is a doddle. The driving is fast but by and large (and Piaggio drivers aside), I feel Italians drive with a certain degree of intelligence. I agree it's very important to be decisive. I drive Chiusi/Roma regularly on the A1, which is a very fast stretch of road. Yet there's a pattern to the movements, this sounds crazy but it's a bit like dancing. You move to left, you move back to the right maintaining the same speed. You drive up someone's backside, they move over, minutes later someone will drive up yours. Frankly, I love it and find driving in the UK now horrendous. I'm afraid I was caught driving on the hardshoulder of the M25 trying to queue jump the tailback minutes after landing at Heathrow. Not sure what was worse, the fine or the very strict telling off from the policeman. Then driving round the London suburbs and, yes, people really slowing down and virtually coming to a halt as the lights turn amber. And stopping as they approach a roundabout! Not sure I could cope with all that any more.
Alas I have seen accidents here, quite a number, including a very unpleasant head on just outside Pienza last year, though arriving seconds afterwards, I'm still baffled as to how it happened.
By the way, I was once told by a guy at the Europcar desk at Fiumicino that every day he has hire cars being brought back within hours of being rented out. The driver (invariably from the US apparently) gets a few kilometres round the Rome ring road before deciding it's all too much for him!

[quote=Violetta;90830]
By the way, I was once told by a guy at the Europcar desk at Fiumicino that every day he has hire cars being brought back within hours of being rented out. The driver (invariably from the US apparently) gets a few kilometres round the Rome ring road before deciding it's all too much for him![/quote]

Have witnessed exactly that with my own eyes at Ciampino, except the driver was British and in tears through sheer terror at the thought of driving even another minute in Rome. What a wuss! :bigergrin:

As already mentioned here. I too no longer bother with the rear view mirror, because you know , that within 2 mins of being on the road you are going to be pulling a trailer.
Roundabouts are a newish concept in our local area, and drivers really, really don't know how to use them, I have seen cars stop in the middle, to allow other drivers on/off, and the idea that folks use there indicators is still a long way off.

I think the Italian driving ethic, is based on the fact, that young teenagers drive mopeds, the constant ducking and weaving in traffic is embedded from an early age, so when they get cars, they do consider themselves bullet ( or worst still, car) proof.

I have seen several accidents on the same stretch of town road, some resulting, sadly in death.
And looking at the sites as you drive past, its hard to work out how they might have happened, must of the cars are so badly damaged , you cant see what the make was.

IMHO, the test here should be harder, and fines a lot higher, maybe then we may see a difference.

[quote=Violetta;90830] Yet there's a pattern to the movements, this sounds crazy but it's a bit like dancing. [/quote]

Makes total sense to me. I had basically the same thought a few weeks back when driving in town. I noticed I'd moved left a bit. Why? Down the road was a kid on a bike. So without even thinking you notice things.

Around here at times it seems half the cars have german plates. They fit in fine. If it wasn't for the plates I couldn't tell they weren't locals.

When it rains all hell breaks loose in the town where I live! There's a mad rush to get home and the two lane road becomes a four lane motorway! Or maybe I should say "river"! (poor drainage!) Drivers are not crazy they're on a mission! Everyone wants to be the king of the road using all the tricks in the bag! The more expensive the car the more things they try to get away with!
They use the lane for turning left to go straight on; love it when I'm first in the lane and actually do want to turn left!
They flash their lights and honk their horn if you're driving too slowy for 'them' - a gesture to say "get out of my way you...."!!
I also remember trying to park... as a good ol' Brit I indicated before stopping and began to park, but the driver of the land rover behind me had already decided it was [B]his[/B] spot so he blocked my entrance! he crossed his arms and sat smugly in his vehicle thinking I'd give up - he wouldn't budge! I think that you have to try not to feel intimidated by these drivers! Or just [B]walk[/B] around your town! Getting a driving licence is easy here which contributes to the problem of "respectless driving" . The end of my story....? I won! I didn't budge either and he just got bored!

Hi Tinacara

That reminds me 'Italians dont look for a parking place they look for a place to park'. This practice seems to be alive and well in Calabria.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I find pedestrians don't make driving any easier either. Drivers have to actually weave around them not to run them over...! Not the driver's fault though! No green cross code man here I'm afraid!

a couple of days ago driving thru town there was a woman standing in the rain waiting to cross, streams of cars, so I let the brit in me out, and stopped to let her cross.
She gesticulated at the driver behind me to apologise as if I was stupid!, and reluctantly she hobbled across, well next time she an get wet!

Hi

Perhaps I have gone 'native'. Driving in Richmond Surrey recently, my daughter shouted 'Mum, that woman was waiting to cross (on the crossing)' My reaction, she wasn't on it!!

Must remember to drive English style in England and any which way here.

Strange tho for those "2 weeks in August" when all the holidaymakers arrive its unreal because ALL the cars stop, everyone (well nearly everyone) becomes patient and considerate. But September its like it never happened! do other parts of Italy experience this?

That's an interesting observation herealready, I'll keep an eye out come August. What I have noticed is that the drivers in Rome and Milan are always in a tearing hurry and completely inconsiderate (probably because they are in a hurry), whereas in Sicily and Calabria it does appear that being a bit late doesn't faze anyone, and it is much more live and let live on the roads.

In August of course everybody is on holiday and not in a tearing hurry - but I wonder what the driving is like in Rimini in August!

There were girls at the beach here end of Nov. Plenty of tourists for May 1st weekend to. Plus I'm sure a few in between. So I'm not sure when the tourists aren't here.

General standard of driving in Italy is appalling with rarely adequate consideration for the unknown or unexpected. I recently took my motorbike test here. Frankly it was far too easy and even my instructor admitted as much. We got tallking a little about the differences between driving in Italy and much of the rest of Europe and he expressed the opinion that the standard of driving in Italy is poor and drivers generally not adequately trained. He also made it quite clear however that they are absolutely NOT taught to drive everywhere in a rush, too close to the vehicle in front and with little or no consideration for other road users.

The accident statistics speak for themselves I'm afraid.

Probably thought you were a new type of speed camera
Bunch

Some very cogent remarks here, as well as some rosy-hued views of Italian driving.

I have only once, I mean once only seen a carabiniere/poliziotto deigning to wear a seat belt, a clear sign of stupidity IMNSHO. No, No, not him, the other ones ! :)

Also, I have witnessed many examples of insane and criminal reckless driving, such as I have never seen anywhere else.

When the Italians pluck up the courage to drive in other countries, their road conduct is notably better than within Italy. Why is this ?

It’s all a part of the machismo thing I suppose. E normale così

Italia, I love it, fuori le strade

ernie

[quote=ernie;93300]
When the Italians pluck up the courage to drive in other countries, their road conduct is notably better than within Italy. Why is this ?[/quote]
My dad watched a programme a couple of years back ,where they followed a lorry driver from Italy to the UK.

In Italy he drove terribly, in the UK impeccably. The reason he gave, was that they were more afraid of the police and speed cameras in the UK, than back in Italy.

[quote=ernie;93300]S

When the Italians pluck up the courage to drive in other countries, their road conduct is notably better than within Italy. Why is this ?
[/quote]

It seems the vast majority of the accidents covered by the news are non-Italians. I'm betting the number of non-Italians is a much smaller percentage then the accidents they cause. Hmmm.

There are also lots of complaints from "tourists" The common thing about tourists is they tend to be looking every place but the places they should. People look at the sea while driving up the coast road. People looking off the edge of the road at the mountains instead of the roads.

It just seems like normal big city driving to me. If you're not comfortable with it then it's not fun but for those who are it's normal.

When you see a couple of Italian talking together, they have a lot of spare time. They talk and talk and talk and.......
When done withe the talking, they get into their cars and drive like hell. My wife has solved this puzzle. They have to make up for the lost time spent talking!!!

This said, in Puglia where we do our Italian driving, we are astonished by the smoothness of the traffic. Drivers give way in crossing, wait patiently if you stop to get your bearing, and not using the horn at all. The most appalling is the lack of the use of seat-belts, especially with kids.
We had visitors that used to drive in Germany and after a couple of hours on the road they said that if this had been in Germany, they would have been witness to at least one hundred collisions. They thoroughly enjoyed the Italian driving.

When we come over, my wife does the talking - she's almost fluent now - and I do the driving. I have to say I like it - it is different, even than Paris where I lived for a year. And we also have seen no accidents. My wife flatly refuses to get behind the wheel in Italy.