9382 residency again

Hi Sand, have you been refused residency? If so, if you don't mind me asking, on what grounds?

[quote=sand;88054]Hello can anyone tell me if they have been unlucky enough to have been denied residency.Have you had to take legal advice to help you.I hope not but if you have please could you let me know how you got on .:veryconfused:
thanks sand[/quote]
could you give more information,place,what you did ,what they said etc otherwise it's such a unique situation as to be almost impossible.

The usual refusal of residency is aimed at 'non comunitari' who arrive here on the 'off chance', so to speak. They often have no visible means of financial support and so would (should) be refused. Another reason is 'sqm of personal habitable space. The guide on [U]that[/U] figure was redefined in late '06 or early '07 I believe.

Then I would imagine that for EU Citizens or 'non comunitari' a residency certificate would be out of the question if there was a history of certain types of criminal record.

But of all the expats I have known and forums I have belonged to, this is the first time I have seen this question raised in a manner to suggest that permission has already been refused.

Yes it [U]is[/U] [quote]"...such a unique situation as to be almost impossible."[/quote]

Hi thankyou for your reply we have been fefused because we were not there when they called.this is four months ago and we have had a solocitor on the case ever since.

Then this begs the question: is your house in Lucca your 'first house' (main home) or your 'second house'?

You can only be a [U]resident[/U] where your main (first) house is.... and you [U]cannot[/U] be a 'resident' in a second home. Residency attracts certain benefits to householders who 'live' in their main home on a permanent basis. I'm afraid that people who visit on an 'as and when' basis do not have the right to these advantages on taxes, utility costs etc.

This is our first house Italy and we spend up to 6 months there,Or at least my boyfriend does.

The Italian fellow who cuts our hair bought a new apartment in a nearby comune. The vigili came by his apartment repeatedly but he was never there (always at his shop). They refused him residenza. He is still trying to sort it with the comune months later.

[quote=sand;88162]This is our first house Italy and we spend up to 6 months there,Or at least my boyfriend does.[/quote]

Yes - [U]but your MAIN home is 'eleswhere' [/U]and so the one in Italy is then your second home... you are not living here permanently and taking holidays somewhere else - right?

I don't agree with Carole's point here, and I would expect Sand to obtain residence after her appeal.

Even if your Italian property is your second home worldwide, it [U]can[/U] still be eligible for the first home tax in Italy, depending on the facts of each case. The law states that this tax concession is available as long as you do not own in your name or jointly any other property in the "Italian territory".

It is technically possible to be "resident" in more than one country. The Comune cannot refuse residence if a person has another home in another country. There is no legal requirement for a person to be present in the property for any specific number of days per year, for this property to be considered your "dimora abituale".

[quote=CMJ Oliver, Solicitor;88205]I don't agree with Carole's point here, and I would expect Sand to obtain residence after her appeal.

Even if your Italian property is your second home worldwide, it [U]can[/U] still be eligible for the first home tax in Italy, depending on the facts of each case. The law states that this tax concession is available as long as you do not own in your name or jointly any other property in the "Italian territory".

It is technically possible to be "resident" in more than one country. The Comune cannot refuse residence if a person has another home in another country. There is no legal requirement for a person to be present in the property for any specific number of days per year, for this property to be considered your "dimora abituale".[/quote]

If this is the case can everyone who has only one holiday home/house in Italy apply for residency and the associated tax breaks and if so can they do it retrospectively?

[quote=CMJ Oliver, Solicitor;88205]
There is no legal requirement for a person to be present in the property for any specific number of days per year, for this property to be considered your "dimora abituale".[/quote]

If so, I wonder why each comune bother with visiting the house to check you actually live there? It would seem to be a complete waste of time and money.

we've been through all this before ...
[url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/property-sales-rental-advice/8226-please-can-anyone-help-give-advise-3.html#post78022[/url]
... the opinion is all conflicting, so you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Yes Nielo, if the following requirements are met:

1. The person must be resident in the Comune or intend to apply for residence within 18 months.
2. The person does not own other property in the Italian territory
3. The property must not be considered a "luxury home"

No it cannot be applied for retrospectively.

All Italian law is open to interpretation, but the Consiglio Nazionale del Notariato backs up my view in relation to foreigners in Italy, and confirms that it may also be possible if a person intends to rent out their property to apply for the prima casa concession.
[I]
"Lo straniero è anche ammesso a godere delle agevolazioni “prima casa” se ne possiede i requisiti, che ovviamente sono i medesimi richiesti per gli italiani...Si consideri poi che le agevolazioni prima casa non dipendono dal fatto che l'immobile acquistato sia destinato ad abitazione propria o familiare, di modo che può essere acquistata con tali agevolazioni anche un'abitazione che verrà locata dopo l’acquisto; ciò in quanto quello che la legge richiede è solo la residenza nel Comune e non presso l'abitazione acquistata."[/I] ([url=http://www.notariato.it]Consiglio Nazionale del Notariato[/url])

An application for prima casa is therefore not dependent on a person being habitually resident in Italy, but the subsequent application for residence at the Comune within 18 months [U]will[/U] requires sufficient evidence, at the time of the application, of the property being your actual place of abode.

[quote=CMJ Oliver, Solicitor;88218]Yes Nielo, if the following requirements are met:

1. The person must be resident in the Comune or intend to apply for residence within 18 months.
2. The person does not own other property in the Italian territory
3. The property must not be considered a "luxury home"

No it cannot be applied for retrospectively.

All Italian law is open to interpretation, but the Consiglio Nazionale del Notariato backs up my view in relation to foreigners in Italy, and confirms that it may also be possible if a person intends to rent out their property to apply for the prima casa concession.
[I]
"Lo straniero è anche ammesso a godere delle agevolazioni “prima casa” se ne possiede i requisiti, che ovviamente sono i medesimi richiesti per gli italiani...Si consideri poi che le agevolazioni prima casa non dipendono dal fatto che l'immobile acquistato sia destinato ad abitazione propria o familiare, di modo che può essere acquistata con tali agevolazioni anche un'abitazione che verrà locata dopo l’acquisto; ciò in quanto quello che la legge richiede è solo la residenza nel Comune e non presso l'abitazione acquistata."[/I] ([url=http://www.notariato.it]Consiglio Nazionale del Notariato[/url])

An application for prima casa is therefore not dependent on a person being habitually resident in Italy, but the subsequent application for residence at the Comune within 18 months [U]will[/U] requires sufficient evidence, at the time of the application, of the property being your actual place of abode.[/quote]

I offer my sincere apologies, I had clearly misunderstood the rquirements that had been explaned to me when I purchased my property. I certainly had no reason, or intention to mislead...

carole you are not alone in this interpretation and i have had debates with CMJ over this in the past... she has in fact saved one of our clients a great deal of money ...well her clients as well i guess by taking the residence route when we would have suggested non....

the problem for us say here in rural abruzzo is that many notaries do not have that sort of willingness to look outside what has been accepted... even though they are supposed to be the property experts when it comes to laws and how they are interpreted they only seem willing to do it their way...

in another case again with CMJ she managed to sort out a difficult sale by giving the notary a different option on how the house sale was to be completed .... now in both cases if we had asked the notaries opinions on any or either of these cases ...well in fact we did we got the standard replies that we had always had... not possible to do it that way...

so CJM offers very good advice... but don't expect all italian notaries or any other Italian official in general to understand or comply without having a bit of an argument...

Hi thanks for the optimism. When I initiallly logged on to italy mag it was to seek a little comfort and advice I soppose, but it appears Iv'e opened up a can of worms. I should of said this earlier but I didnt anticipate the response I have recieved and it is impossible to give all the details without boring you. But eventually when Iam able to leave my job we will be spending much more time there (may even decide to live there) who knows.Surely not all of the italy mag members did it in one go did they? I understand full why people get miffed if they are living there full time and other people are taking the mick, but please give people a chance you took one once ,its a big step.Any way your'e the lucky ones living in beautiful Italy ,I will carry on hopefully not for much longer to battle for residency ciao ciao, (as the grammar PAS55 get a life).:smile:

....ciò in quanto quello che la legge richiede è solo la residenza nel Comune e non presso l'abitazione acquistata."

That is included in the notarial interpretation provided by CMJ. It's the same for Italians. Am I being exceedingly thick here, because to me it reads as if residence in the Comune (though not necessarily in the house bought as prima casa) [U]is [/U]a requirement.

I agree that the inclusion of 'not owning another property in Italy' is relevant for arguing the case for non Italians buying their first house in Italy.

FWIW the Italian news just claimed the new security law will give communes more power to request proof of means for EC citizens. So expect residency to get that much more complicated. Even more so if they leave lots of grey for the town clerks to figure out.

Oh is health care linked to residence? If so that will get complicated to.

The proof of the pudding is, as is said, in the eating.

Having residency (or intending to apply for it) would have financial advantages when purchasing the property and then for running costs and so could be of significance for very many of us who have holiday homes in Italy but who have no intention of selling our property in the UK.

So can somebody who is in this position and who has obtained Italian residency please confirm that this really is possible and tell us what process they used to achieve it? Has it then had any complications or adverse financial consequences with regard to taxation?

I have written on this Forum before about iva 4% for prima casa restorations etc. Now I find myself in a real pickle no fault of my own. When I went to the Comune to change my residency within 18 months for Prima Casa I received a receipt with the date & my name (albeit my maiden name even though passport is in married name - also a subject I have talked about).Fortunately I have kept this receipt. I was told the vigili may (suggesting may not) come & visit me within two-three weeks. I told them the property is very difficult to find as the road name is used in different locations in same comune. So I left my cellphone (always on) with them so the vigili could phone me. I stayed in the property day & night for this time - going out occasionally to buy food (a necessity isnt it!) but leaving workers at the property. On each occasion on my return they confirmed the vigili had not been. I presumed (stupidly now) that all was well, as it wasnt made clear they would definitely come. I had people working in or around the property for the next four months so there was always someone here when I had to go out. no vigili turned up - no note/letter was left or sent - they had my sisters address as I have no postal address nothing was sent to her. Four months later I wanted to buy a car and needed a residence certificate so popped along to comune to be told "residenza e' stata respinta" of course by now the 18 mths was well & truly over. I nearly broke down - why because the vigile didnt find you at home. I asked them what could I do and they told me I had to do the whole process again (now in my married name & they refused to put anywhere my maiden name or use my original CF- very important) - This time I drew them a map of where the house was & left two phone numbers. The vigile did turn up after ten days - I asked him if he'd been before his reply was he couldnt find it!. The comune also never communicated with me to say it had been respinta. Now I have a massive bill to pay the Ag. delle Entrate for not changing my residency within 18 months. I have 60 days to protest but what can I protest about - its my word against the vigile. And now what do I do about all the reduced IVA I paid for new windows, etc. Also I tried to get a Tessera Sanitaria only to be told it had been sent to Rome last year (two years after I had changed my residency) because the COmune wouldnt use my CF as it was in my maiden name - I went to Agenzia delle Entrate who told me the Comune was mistaken to change my codice fiscale - anyway he gave me a new one in my married name. But now it looks like I live in two places. Under my single name in Rome (because the notification to pay the fine is addressed to me at my old address in Rome) and under my married name in Puglia. What a mess! What I want to know is if the vigile dont find you at home dont they have to leave notification? how many times should they come out? - If they inform the Comune dont the comune have the obligation to inform you? who can I turn to a lawyer/geometra/notaio? It seems the citizen doesnt have rights in Italy. I have done everything by the book paid enormous amounts of money to have plans drawn up for a garage & a new bathroom (i could have done without it) got invoices for everything but am being penalised for being honest now I know why Italians build abusivamente!! PS am in San Vito dei Normanni (BR) if anyone knows a professional who could help me I would appreciate it.

[quote=sand;88054]Hello can anyone tell me if they have been unlucky enough to have been denied residency.Have you had to take legal advice to help you.I hope not but if you have please could you let me know how you got on .:veryconfused:
thanks sand[/quote]

Hi Sand I have written my story on page 3 - legal. Even though I live fulltime here - speak fluent Italian - I have been unlucky enough to be denied residency on the basis the vigile couldnt find the house! - obviously a casa rurale in the middle of the countryside with no road name/no number etc. Pse read my reply.

Our thoughts are with anyone who has difficulties in getting residency.
My wife had the same difficulty with Agenzia della Entrata insisting that they issue a Codice Fiscale in her maiden name. Luckily she went back pretty quickly to tell them that they had no right to change her legal name and she demanded a Codice Fiscale in her married name, she got it and life is a lot more simple.
It should be a top tip for an easier life, to not accept a Codice Fiscale in your maiden name.

[U]All[/U] of my Italian documentation is in my married name. I explained that as long as I remained a British citizen, then legally they are required to accept that - and they did. So as a British Citizen I am known (and shown) as:
Signora Carole XXXXX (married name) [B][U]IN[/U][/B] XXXXXXX (husbands surname).
I have to sign all documents in this manner too.

Whereas if I were (or became) an Italian citizen then I would be:
Carole XXXXXX (birth name - nee) [B]IN[/B] XXXXXXXXX (husbands surname)
And I would have to sign all documents with my 'legal' Italian [I][U]birth[/U][/I] name....

I mean - why make things simple when with just a little effort you can make everything a 'test of endurance'?

@Diddy. I'm sorry to hear of your predicament. I think the only solution would have been for you to apply and apply again at 3-week intervals until they came and found you in, or you wore them down. One of my clients succeeded at the 3rd time, just short of the 18-month deadline.

Now that the deadline has passed, I think you need to go and try to reason with them, or send a letter from an [i]Avvocato[/i]. Whatever you do, don't just ignore it; even if they don't pursue you for the money, the debt will show up when a Notary checks your house whenever you come to sell it, so the issue won't just go away.

Marc has said it all. But as one has to apply for residenza within 18 months it is not always possible for the owners to be actually living in the house....a restoration usually takes far longer than that, so people we know in Umbria, have had to rent somewhere and use that place as their Italian address. This inturn makes matters very complicated when trying, for example, to register your finally restored home as your now permanent address with ENEL. There is always a way round such obstacles so if necessary pay for professional help, it will be worth it in the end.

I agree that Diddy should not just ignore this, but if this sort of local authority incompetence happened in the UK you would go to your councillor, or the mayor, wouldn't you? Why not try that route first before involving avvocati.

It seems to me to be the sort of problem in which the comune could admit to 'an unfortunate oversight due to shortage of vigli' (without this admission causing the comune any difficult consequences), and with any luck the agenzie and the comune could - with one co-ordinated click of a mouse - sort out your date of residence. A firm, but diplomatic, approach to your elected representative has got to be worth a try. Good luck.

Thanks Carole I did try to get my maiden name xxx in married name xxx but they adamantly refused. And thanks to all the very helpful replies perhaps I should go to the local mayor - I have explained my situation to a local lawyer and he was nothing but abrupt said he phone me back by midday ( a week ago) havent heard of him since. I do believe (having worked for the CPS in UK you get a nose for smelling a rat) that there is malice afoot. They didnt want to register me within the 18mths because they didnt want me to benefit from the 'prima casa' tax advantage. Here everyone is related to everyone and there's a lot of jealousy about Brits who come here & restore masserie, trulli and casali - patrimonio which the pugliesi have left to rot for years. Course they dont mind our money!

[quote=diddy;91652]Thanks Carole I did try to get my maiden name xxx in married name xxx but they adamantly refused. [/quote]
I believe Carole is saying UK citizens would use the form "Signora Carole XXXXX (married name) IN XXXXXXX (husbands surname)."

[quote=Noma;91655]I believe Carole is saying UK citizens would use the form "Signora Carole XXXXX (married name) IN XXXXXXX (husbands surname)."[/quote]

That's right... for example if my married name is Smith and my birth name is Verdi and someone asks me my name I would reply:
"Mi chiama [I]SMITH[/I] Carole Wendy [B][U]IN[/U][/B] [I]Verdi.[/I]"