9951 A little advice please?

For the Codice Fiscale you should contact the nearest Italian Consulate. It is very easy to obtain. You simply complete a form and give it to them. You need this in order to purchase property, open a bank account, etc. It is not necessary to have an address in Italy in order to obtain it. You will need a Codice Fiscale number for each one of you if you are both purchasing the property or opening a bank account.
As far as residency is concerned, this is a bit more complicated. Yes, you pay more tax on the purchase but the difference is not astronomical and if you are not going to live in Italy.... it may not be worth the trouble. Do a little search under "residency" and you will find plenty of posts in this Forum. You can also find quite a bit of information regarding purchase tax.
Best wishes.

Thanks Gala,
I thought getting the "Codice Fiscali" would be relatively easy. However, my main concern would be for the residency. I have read that purchase tax for Italian residents for a first property would be 4% of the purchase price and that it seems a "non resident" would have to pay 10-11%. This means that for our 150,000ish euros budget we will have to pay either 6000 or up to 16500 euros. If i can save 10000 euros by gaining residency then surely it cant be too difficult? Can we still apply for Italian residency if we still live in the uk?

Thanks

Nigel & Amanda

If you weren't going to be living in the house for more than two years after you'd bought it, you wouldn't be able to claim the lesser tax rate for residents. I think you need to be living in the house within 18 months, but there's a lot of info about this on these forums.

If you're resident in Italy, you'll pay Italian income tax and INPS (Italian pension payments) on your income. I have no idea how this compares to UK tax rates, but it's worth finding out before you make the decision.

Nigel and Amanda,
We're just about to complete on a place in Umbria and wanted to point out that as of 2007 you only pay tax on the cadastral value of the house not on the purchase price. The cadastral value is always significantly lower. Agents will always be able to advise on the cadastral value so it's pretty easy to work out what tax you would pay whether you decide to become resident or not.
We have found this very confusing over the last few months and this is basically because a lot of info in buying in Italy books and on the internet has not been updated to reflect this change.
Hope this helps

Thanks Antinello, We will bear this in mind in a fortnight when we are on our next viewings. Maybe ask the estate agents.

Nigel & Amanda:yes:

As regards estate agents you will pay him 4% so make sure you get your money's worth, use his services as much as possible

From what I remember the cadastral value of our property (which was just under €200k) was around the €35k mark so the tax is no where near as much as we expected.

Chris

Thanks Chris, Are you serious? The Cadastral value you paid was either around 4% or 10% of 35k when your house nearer 200k? How do they work out the Cadstral value.
Come to think of it - what does "Cadastral" mean?

cadastral value is the equivalent of say how your house in the UK is rated for tax purposes... ie the council sticks it in a band to get their level of council tax... and that's basically what it is...

houses have always been taxed on this value... as regards the payment you made when buying... the difference now as against in the past is that the full purchase price is declared at the final act which is more relevant as regards the sellers finances ... ie the Italian government is looking at what they can get back from them ...it also allows for the first time in Italy a real database of commercial values of property to be built up... with an eye in the future of increasing cadastral values to arrive more in line with market place prices... that process has already started ...but is a long way off completion i would think...

4 % for an estate agents fee i would describe as quite high... unless you are buying a property for under the euro 100k when fixed fees generally apply so percentages are higher than average ... above that price 3 % should be the norm and above 200k i would argue that there us a good case for negotiating a bit of discount... even if only a quarter per cent... don't forget that on the fee you have to add in 20 % VAT... do not be tempted to pay agents cash...without receipts... one it means you have no legal redress against them... if later any problems with how the house was presented to you by them comes up...secondly in the final act you need to declare who you paid and how much... by not filling this in accurately you end up putting the house you bought at risk...because the finance people here if they even think you have cheated can attach a debt to the house .... anytime over the ten years following the sale...

various debates go on about residency and the eighteen months rule and if you go on posts by charlotte oliver a solicitor working in Rome who is both italy/uk qualified and specialises to in unravelling EU rules she has posted quite definite views on this
[URL]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/legal/9880-permanent-residency.html[/URL]

in fact she is now our solicitor of choice as regards house sales and people wanting back up with legal help... she is the only person in all our sales that has actually ever visited the property to check facts against paerwork... and we have been involved over the years with several so called specialist solicitors in sales... however there are others out there too... so you make your choice... and basically we try and walk a line so that we do recommend someone being fully aware that there are many people selling property here that have their own almost in house legal teams... who from what you hear around and about... sometimes on this forum too are basically there to rubber stamp sales... so be aware ...

in addition ... once you decide if you want to buy as resident or not taking in to account the previous link and that info another very good read is this next link
[URL]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/legal/9803-private-health-insurance-again.html[/URL]

and i believe it is chrisnotton... in that post who has provided a very detailed account of the hows and whats...but there is also other very good info within it ...and at this stage in time i would say its the most current and up to date version of how to do things

all things change however and there are other posts on here about how houses should have a certificate of conformity for their attached services... a good bargaining point if you agree in a sale to take on a house without... as you should be able to negotiate a discount on the sale price... if at the final act you sign the paper saying you are buying the house without a certificate...

be aware also that if buying a house with lots of work to do that costs here are as high in respect of building work as anywhere... and these costs are only likely to rise as new laws about energy efficiency of builds come in along with rising fuel prices... making all building materials and quotes on work rise accordingly...

finally good luck with it all and am sure that it will work out for you... i always believe that people that find this forum first before they have either fallen in love with a property or signed any paper have a much better chance of getting things done right than people that arrive here after they have signed and are looking for help in solving often unsolvable problems...

Nigel and Amanda, the advice is totally correct. We only paid taxes on about one third of the purchase price because the cadastral value was much less than the selling price. So it would be worth checking that before making any decisions. A geometra can be very helpful as they can access the cadastral value through Internet and will be able to know how much you will end up paying. I do not know whether all cadastral details can be accessed or whether only a few regions have allowed that. As for deciding on whether you are going to become residents or not it all depends on your particular situation. Perhaps it is easier to pay a bit more from the start and save more at the end. We did not take up residency, it was going to complicate things for us. Cheers,

Hi guys, its really easy to get the codice fiscali and the residency if you know the right people. Check out this web site for our lawyer, Giovanna Salvucci, who undertakes everything for you with regard to buying, opening bank accounts, codice fiscali, residency, organising payment of bills, the process of buying and builders contracts. She has helped many of our clients - she speaks English and does so much to help, she is invaluable!

Her email is [email]gsalvucci@marchelegale.com[/email] and the web address is [url=http://www.marchelegale.com]Marche Legale providing legal services for buying and restoring homes in Le Marche, Italy[/url]

Hope this helps. feel free to email her with any questions

regards
Pam

Thanks to all who have replied so far. It really is reassuring.
Cheers Pam, I may well contact Giovanna to ask her view.

PM for you

Chris

[quote=Gala Placidia;92774]A geometra can be very helpful as they can access the cadastral value through Internet[/quote]

All estate agents can do this too, if they choose to pay for the service and [B]will not charge you, whereas a geometra will charge. [/B]
You should see the "cadastral extract" (this shows who are the legal owners and what is the cadastral value of the property) and the cadastral map (this shows which parcels of land are included and the borders of the property if ti is rural and will show an actual simple plan of the property if it is urban).
An estate agent should provide this information for [B]no cost[/B]. They may choose to only show you when they know you are serous about a property as it contains information about the owner and the property which is at least private if not confidential.

I agree with Adriatica. 3% is much more the norm here in Marche.

I have said it before but I will say it again - a GOOD agent will sort out your Codice Fiscale, Bank Account, transfer of utility bills and residency FREE as part of their service. If they don't - have you got the right agent?