10025 Rose tinted specs...or not?

Well, crime is down in the UK.

It also seems that house prices are up, employment is high, inflation is low etc... -> [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7513563.stm]BBC NEWS | Magazine | Five reasons to be cheerful amid the gloom[/url]

We just have the same press........

The situation you experience in your town seems pretty similar to the one we enjoy in our area, although I have reports that in the Versilia Coast and all the beaches it is all very different. The same thing happens in Spain, there are very quiet areas and on the other hand, in some neighbourhoods, particularly in certain larger towns nobody can sleep at night. Alcohol is a very bad companion if people do not learn to drink in a responsible way.

It's one of the reasons I (along with several other million people) are looking to leave the UK. I am - frankly - sometimes ashamed to be English with the way behaviour is going here. And it's one of the things we love about Italy. Last year we were staying overnight on our last night in Pisa before heading back home We went out for a proper pizza, had a lovely evening with a very funny chef and wonderful staff. As we came to the bridge over the Arno, a group of teenagers were doing what teenagers the world over do - standing in a group, chatting noisily, playing on skateboards and one or two were walking along the edge of the wall above the river. An old lady - a very old lady - shouted at them, waved her walking stick at them and they got down. No verbal abuse. No physical threats or otherwise. No back-chat. They looked embarrassed, apologised and carried on chatting. We were stunned - in the UK I don't want to think what the response would have been. We have groups of youths around here on Friday nights, and I wouldn't challenge them without a lot of second, third or even forth thoughts! I don't want my kids being brought up in this kind of society. Thus the dream to move somewhere where the lifestyle is better. I believe that successive governments have legislated the family almost out of existence, made it financially better to live together, and taken all that this country is built on - Christian values and ethics - and now wonders why we're seeing the fruit of that. Kids have no fathers as role models, families are fragmented etc etc. Maybe things financially are harder in Italy and the taxes are higher, maybe the government does suffer from corruption (al least they're honest about it!) and maybe you do have rose tinted glasses - but I want a pair the same ones you're wearing!

Every time we come over it gets harder and harder to come back to the UK. Dreading it this year! Maybe we'll just stay!:laughs:

A thought provoking post M&C, and on some points I agree with you. However I think that there is this "myth" of the perfect family that does not exsist, and I think we need to move on from what was upheld as the nuclear family, Mum Dad and kids, there are many loving relationships that do not conform to this ideal and society has changed. Women are now free to leave abusive partners, I know many divorced women in Italy ( and the UK), and we need to remove the stigma that they have somehow "failed" because they no longer conform to the norm as percieved by some elements of society.
I also know adults, men and women who care for their elderly and infirm relatives at home, because there is little state care here in Italy, they have little life of their own, and I wonder how many of them do it because of the force of family and tradition, I admire them but would be unable to do it myself.
A

You raise a very interesting question Nielo, one that I have been thinking about for quite a long time.
I suppose the first thing to remember is looking at like for like, a rural area like the one you live in obviously can't be compared with a town in England.
The only area I know anything about is Northern Tuscany, the Lucca area and what has always intrigued me was the level of security people have on their houses, is that because they are frightened of crime or because there is crime? Bars on the windows incredibly secure doors with bolts in to the floor. Alarm systems seem to increasing. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation is there less crime because of the security? Or are they being paranoid?
The coastal town of Viareggio has crime. Houses are robbed, the market is notorious for pickpockets and there is a drug problem, which probably accounts for a lot of the crime, but then I have been told that there is quite a large drug problem in Lucca!, our next door neighbours son died of a drug overdose in Lucca. But you don' see it; it is below the surface, unlike binge drinking and the mayhem that goes with it, which I have not seen in Italy.
There is vandalism though even in small places like Bagni di Lucca but then there isn't much for the young to do there, I am still trying to find out if there is crime in Bagni, the local jeweler says he has been robbed occasionally, I have heard of some houses being robbed but not many and there doesn't seem to be any street crime, as for young people causing problems we were kept awake recently by what was obviously a party that went on until 5 30 am in the morning I suspect it was an end of school celebration but we had some very unhappy neighbors who had to go to work very early the next day without much sleep!.
I have heard of a village where a couple of the elderly residents had money stolen from their houses but they are used to leaving their doors unlocked, so times have changed. But then you have to consider that Bagni even counting the villages has a population of only about 6000 people, would you find a similar thing in a rural area of England with equivalent populations?
I look forward to seeing what others thoughts are on the subject.
Susi

[quote=Angie and Robert;93398]A thought provoking post M&C, and on some points I agree with you. However I think that there is this "myth" of the perfect family that does not exsist, and I think we need to move on from what was upheld as the nuclear family, Mum Dad and kids, there are many loving relationships that do not conform to this ideal and society has changed. Women are now free to leave abusive partners, I know many divorced women in Italy ( and the UK), and we need to remove the stigma that they have somehow "failed" because they no longer conform to the norm as percieved by some elements of society.
I also know adults, men and women who care for their elderly and infirm relatives at home, because there is little state care here in Italy, they have little life of their own, and I wonder how many of them do it because of the force of family and tradition, I admire them but would be unable to do it myself.
A[/quote]

A Also an interesting post. Obviously the perfect family does not exist but does that mean we should not strive toward stability?

We are currently seeing the results of the disintegrating family here in the UK and in many other societies. We are also seeing the results of the other big myth that a child does not need a father.

Obviously relationships change and sometimes it is more destructive being together than being apart but surely the children's benefit should always come first and policy makers should be doing as much as possible to FORCE people to face up to ALL the responsibilities of parenthood.

I didn't mean that as an exclusive reason, but just as one example of the way the fabric of society has changed negatively. I'd also be interested to know what the impact of eastern Europeans has had in Italy - I live in Peterborough and we have the 2nd highest concentration in the UK after London. Most of them are ok, but some are complete rogues.

There was a report in one paper last week where they showed the amount of knife attacks across the UK. Most were in London but many were small rural communities and we've had a few high-profile knife attacks here in the last few years.

Having said that though, England isn't a blood-bath. But teenagers do seem to be lacking any purpose or direction in their lives and it has to come out somewhere.

It's partly what one chooses to see. You can look on the bright side, ignore any unpleasantness around you and continue to have a good time ([url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/italy.race]Gypsy girls' corpses on beach in Italy fail to put off sunbathers | World news | The Guardian[/url]). Or in Britain you can ignore all the evidence of a sustained drop in crime rates (though not to reported rates as low as in Italy), and continue to believe that it's rising.

Certainly it's wonderful not to have streets overwhelmed with teenage drunks at weekends. But on the other hand, Italian kids kill themselves (and others) with two-wheeled vehicles at a rate which massively outstrips the toll from more conventional crime in the UK. And there are some commonly reported crimes (e.g. arson of vehicles by vandals, and the sometimes fatal protection racket crime) which are rather less frequent in the UK.

You pays your money and you takes your choice....

I believe I read in a recent post by adriatica that immigrants ,in this case to Le Marche had help drive forward the already boyant economy, perhaps John you could elaborate for M&C?
A

[quote=bosco;93411]It's partly what one chooses to see. You can look on the bright side, ignore any unpleasantness around you and continue to have a good time ([url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/italy.race]Gypsy girls' corpses on beach in Italy fail to put off sunbathers | World news | The Guardian[/url]). Or in Britain you can ignore all the evidence of a sustained drop in crime rates (though not to reported rates as low as in Italy), and continue to believe that it's rising.

Certainly it's wonderful not to have streets overwhelmed with teenage drunks at weekends. But on the other hand, Italian kids kill themselves (and others) with two-wheeled vehicles at a rate which massively outstrips the toll from more conventional crime in the UK. And there are some commonly reported crimes (e.g. arson of vehicles by vandals, and the sometimes fatal protection racket crime) which are rather less frequent in the UK.

You pays your money and you takes your choice....[/quote]

Good point Bosco. But I would say that although serious crime is down in the UK don't forget that a lot of the drop in crime figures is statistical manipulation. Certainly with anti social behaviour, which has the most common impact on most people, it is very rarely reported to the police and therefore almost never included in statistics.

The Daily Mail would have us believe that the UK is a sea of violence (and having lived in a few other countries I can categorically say it is not) but the anti social behaviour and attitudes of a lot of people are what really affect most peoples quality of life and can make the UK not a nice place to live in.

I suspect that, as none of us seem to live or have houses in big towns or cities here in Italy, it is difficult to make comparisons.

Having seen the recent thread about press coverage I also suppose we should not believe anything we read in the papers either!

Maybe it is just the same all over the world but it sure [I]feels[/I] better here in Italy.:bigergrin:

My own opinion is that there is an awful lot of 'rose-tinted specs syndrome' amongst UK ex-pats here. People tend to move to a different environment to what they've been used to and ascribe the differences to a general view that it's better here. I've seen the range of anti-social behaviour: in certain cases it's worse (drunk driving... driving in general!) and in others better (less drunken aggression). The idea that they don't get drunk, talk to god on the big white telephone etc. is just laughable - at least in my neck of the woods.

I've had my purse stolen here, and then a mobile phone. As has been pointed out, the appartments (let alone houses) are massively protected - although I don't bother with the second set of locks on my flat door - others in the block obviously do. My car insurance here is ridiculously high - I ponder why.

I also think that the language skills of many aren't (yet) up to scratch, and hence don't particularly notice in the local press the report of a knifing (far more knives carried here, I can assure you even if they are generally used for hacking at salami!) or bottling: in the UK these reports probably jump off the page at you.

Frankly the people who leave the UK because 'it's going to the dogs' are a bit like a close relation of mine who now lives in another country and complains about immigrants to the UK. The irony of the opinion is completely lost on them.

Well - that's certainly not anything I've heard before. I suppose all cultures have their problems in anti-social behaviour. I can only speak from what I not only read in the UK press (and I work in newspapers) and experience here weekly - if not daily and what we experience when we come to Italy (leave tomorrow evening from Stanstead to Pisa - wheee! :bigergrin:) . I know 2 weeks every year isn't a huge amount of experience, and we don't see it 24 x 7 x 365 but there are a number of sites I regularly monitor during the year to keep abreast of what's happening in the news and so on to get a rounded picture of the country, keep current and so on especially as we are seriously looking at moving across when the kids have finished their education. I'd like to know what we're looking at coming to - warts and all. We have no delusions it's a paradise but we've found the people to be warm and hospitable, the climate/lifestyle/diet agrees with us very much. And I don't want to get to the end of my life having never done it and thinking "what if..." even if we try and it doesn't work out. Life is too short and I'd rather try and fail than never have tried at all. I spent 14 months working in France - 6 weeks in Digne in the Haute Alps and a year just outside Paris. Had a very hard time and was homesick for about 9 months of that but was on my own - this time I have a family (our 18th wedding aniversary today!). Even so - wouldn't have missed it for anything. Same with 3 months working in Amsterdam. We haven't decided 100% what we're doing but we've put a plan into action with a timescale and a budget. And doing a LOT of research and information like that which you have posted is useful to us so many thanks for that.

[quote=sueflauto;93737]

I also think that the language skills of many aren't (yet) up to scratch, and hence don't particularly notice in the local press the report of a knifing (far more knives carried here, I can assure you even if they are generally used for hacking at salami!) or bottling: in the UK these reports probably jump off the page at you.
[/quote]

Aaaahhhh, so the solution for a happy life is Don't read the papers!

[quote=sueflauto;93737]My own opinion is that there is an awful lot of 'rose-tinted specs syndrome' amongst UK ex-pats here. People tend to move to a different environment to what they've been used to and ascribe the differences to a general view that it's better here. ......

I also think that the language skills of many aren't (yet) up to scratch, and hence don't particularly notice in the local press the report of a knifing (far more knives carried here, I can assure you even if they are generally used for hacking at salami!) or bottling: in the UK these reports probably jump off the page at you.

[/quote]

I think you have hit two nails on the head here, particularly about non Italian speakers not following either the national or local news.

I know by saying the following I'm going to be labelled as fascist, racist or worse: but most of the murders, drug related crimes, stabbings, rapes and organised robberies which I read about daily in the Umbrian press are carried out by non-Italians - and are almost always drug dealing related. More than half of the reported house robberies or purse snatching incidents are also carried out by non-Italians. A good third of the daily crop of road fatalities also involve extra-communitari (and there cannot possibly be one in three drivers who is non-Italian on the roads).

So, it is quite easy to be racist or fascist when you take notice of the small number of (frequently) illegal extra-communitari who can create fear in a city or a region. All of the 'opolis', on the other hand, are purely domestic arrangements!

Figures are similar in Spain and also some statistics have been recently released regarding deaths due to domestic violence. Some 60% of these deaths happen within the illegal and "extra-communitari" people and, in most of the cases, drugs or alcohol abuse is involved.
I do not think that anyone can be blamed for being a racist or fascist for pointing out these facts and figures. What also happens is that these figures can be then used by the racist or fascist element in any community (they do exist, everywhere) to justify their unjustifiable actions. And then, us, normal ordinary people, are caught in the middle and without seeing an easy solution for a very serious problem. Oh, the politicians will also use all this to gain some advantages..... The old story....

[quote=Charles Phillips;93893] most of the murders, drug related crimes, stabbings, rapes and organised robberies which I read about daily in the Umbrian press are carried out by non-Italians - and are almost always drug dealing related. More than half of the reported house robberies or purse snatching incidents are also carried out by non-Italians. A good third of the daily crop of road fatalities also involve extra-communitari (and there cannot possibly be one in three drivers who is non-Italian on the roads).[/quote]
Charles, I note your conclusion is based on what you see in the media, not police statistics.

Stranieri make up 26% of convicted criminals in Italy. Granted, they have a higher crime rate, as they make up only 4% - 5% of the population.

Possibly Umbria is exceptionally rife with criminal stranieri?

I can believe that only 26% of convicted criminals in Italy are stranieri. One could reasonably argue that there are two reasons why this is an understatement [I]in relation to the criminal activities which I mentioned.[/I]

Firstly, it is very difficult to convict an illegal immigrant, and secondly because there are a lot of other sorts of (arguably less socially diruptive) crime at which I'm sure the Italians outshine the stranieri.

And yes, Umbria (in particular Perugia) is in the unenviable position of being Italy's third drug city. Milan is ahead, and number two is either Rome or Naples: (I think it's Rome).

[quote=Noma;93899]Charles, I note your conclusion is based on what you see in the media, not police statistics.

Stranieri make up 26% of convicted criminals in Italy. Granted, they have a higher crime rate, as they make up only 4% - 5% of the population.

Possibly Umbria is exceptionally rife with criminal stranieri?[/quote]

i don't no where you get these figures the last ones i saw which were official indicate that over 60% of the italian prison population is foreigners

It may seem counter-intuitive, but conviction rates for stranieri are actually higher. The reason "the experts" cite is stranieri are usually poorer and less well-connected than Italians, so they end up being represented by public defenders, rather than skillful lawyers who know how to work the system (for instance, launching endless appeals until the statute of limitations runs out).

[quote=Sebastiano;93902]i don't no where you get these figures the last ones i saw which were official indicate that over 60% of the italian prison population is foreigners[/quote]

Yes, I too have seen this official 60% stranieri in the prison population (higher in my area) figure. Quite probably (for the reasons Noma cites - duff defence lawyers etc.) many Italian convicted criminals don't end up in prison, so both Noma's 26% of convicted criminals, and your 60% of prisoners could be based on the same data.

I can only give one example to support what has been said re imprisoning Italians for crimes v stranieri, but I whole heartedly believe an Italian can escape punishment, especially if they are well connected and all of you will nod I am sure! Near Perugia, a Ferrari driving son of a pezzo grosso was involved in a serious "white collar" crime, no gaol sentence. Romanians finally caught and found guilty of a series of minor burglaries...jailed. The Romanians perhaps commit the crimes we everyday folk detest, they violate our homes. Fraud crimes don't enter the lives of most expats, I wonder do we really care if the Italian is goaled or not? Italians are perhaps more accustomed to such things? Some even seem to take pride in "getting away with it" time and time again!.

here in Teramo we have a university faculty journalism which publishes an online newspaper and they have just done a research set of items about binge drinking here in Abruzzo
[url=http://www.facoltadinotizia.it/node/542]Aperitivo, happy hour, binge drinking: i modi di bere dei giovani italiani | Facoltà di notizia[/url]

is the link to one of the articles

if you go to the page below its the main dossier link and under the article linked to above there are also various other interviews to do with locals from bar men to wine sellers and various others....

[url=http://www.facoltadinotizia.it/dossier]DOSSIER | Facoltà di notizia[/url]

anyway its a useful view from Italians ... young people and there concerns...

I dont know about Rose Tinted glasses I'd say some expats must be finding it hard to see at all thro those deep red lenses!!!

Italy is different from the UK. Sometimes better sometimes worse;we love the climate,history, food,wildlife and our friendly neighbours.The rest is a pain in the .... and when I read [I][B]il centro[/B][/I] I start to feel pretty depressed.But if you stay on your terrazzo getting sloshed on cheap plonk then I guess its pretty easy to believe in la Dolce Vita???

At a local trattoria we watched 3 men consume at least 3 litres of wine then calmly drive off.No one seems to object to drink driving at least in the rural areas. Our 2 teenage daughters were quite shocked.

One evening we were walking back from a pizzeria about 10pm along a quiet country road when 2 men stopped their car thinking we were pimp and prostitute! A few choice English swear words and they left us alone but still a pretty unpleasant experience.

Not saying we've not had worse in the UK but Italy is not some crime free Eden !

I walked home on my own the other night after dinner with girlfriends and rather than walking up through the village itself, I took the country lane route back as it was such a beautiful evening. Thought crossed my mind, as it does often here, how very fortunate I am to live somewhere so safe and secure for I won't even go out to get something from the car after dark when I stay with friends in London. And like the Home Secretary, I certainly wouldn't stroll out to buy a take away on my own in the evening. I do sometimes during the day go out with locking my door. I usually keep doors open when I'm at home alone all day, again something I certainly wouldn't do in Britain. And although I personally continue to lock my car, few of my neighbours do.
I am, however, always far more alert when I stay for a few days in Florence, a city where everyone is getting extremely concerned about the growing crime rate, attacks on women (especially foreign women), drug and alcohol related crime, etc. And it is clearly the same in other Italian cities too. You do only need to read the papers or listen to the local news but, as someone else so rightly points out, few British expats are capable of doing this or, perhaps, even want to? After all, ignorance is supposedly bliss.

Interesting to see Italy to deploy troops in various big cities, they will be lightly
armed apparently to deal with minor crime, drugs, pickpocketing, begging and
prostitution ( BBC 15TH JUNE).
How long will the deployment last ?,is it window dressing for the present
government ?, will this crime either move elswhere or return after troops are
moved out ?.
I wonder if this plan was rolled out in the U.K what the mood of the population
would be, I have an idea it would popular.

Gerry (bluesmoke)

[quote=Sebastiano;93902]i don't no where you get these figures the last ones i saw which were official indicate that over 60% of the italian prison population is foreigners[/quote]
Berlusconi cites the figure 36% of crimes committed by illegal immigrants in his Newsweek interview this week. If the percentage of prison population is higher, lack of adequate legal representation is the likely cause.

In England it seems every young lawyer who wants to make a name for himself represents anyone who against the English way of life. But the prison population is still full of people from non-English backgrounds. Also look at crimewatch! Would not Italy be in the same position. Its not just decent people who move to other countries - some see them as rich pickings.

I am a bit confused borrini, what is the English way of life?. Not sure of the point you are making.
A

[QUOTE=bluesmoke;94055]Interesting to see Italy to deploy troops in various big cities, they will be lightly
armed apparently to deal with minor crime, drugs, pickpocketing, begging and
prostitution ( BBC 15TH JUNE).
How long will the deployment last ?,is it window dressing for the present
government ?, will this crime either move elswhere or return after troops are
moved out ?.
I wonder if this plan was rolled out in the U.K what the mood of the population
would be, I have an idea it would popular.

Well apparently Italy has the highest European incidence, of death in the workplace, and there are very few inspectors (enough for one to visit to a site every 20 years or so, apparently), so the latest "bright idea" is that troops will now act as inspectors!!!

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I think there are two issues here :
1) Urban or not -many who move to Italy full time embrace a rural life.I love nature and views,but not 100%
2)Full time or not - we love our second home in Italy but would not wish to live there all the time.A large part of what it gives us is a different perspective on "normal" life at home in the
UK
From my point of view a crucial point is that I view our property as a second home-not as a holiday home.Which means I can spend time in two places and appreciate each from afar.

Seems to me that many who have come here are in search of countryside and views.For me,good but I love the city,the music,theatre ,restaurants.So I will stick in London but want to be in and and appreciate Italy

The best of both worlds may be a cliche,but still worth aiming for