10201 Being cremated in Italy

Be careful which undertaker you choose if you have to arrange for a cremation in the Lunigiana and Garfagnana area!
[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4532035.ece]Thirteen arrested over Tuscan crematorium that 'piled up bodies for mass burning' - Times Online[/url]

Category

General chat about Italy

What a horrible thing! Thank you for letting us know.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I think that you did not read the article properly, Torchiarolan. It is obvious that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this most regrettable event. The information about cremations is only secondary to the real news.
What is your problem with the Church, anyway? We only have to look at your avatar to sense that there is a deep problem there. It would be better for you to get rid of your hatred. Pax vobiscum!

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I insist, Torchiarolan, the problem with the crematorium has nothing to do with the Catholic Church and its position regarding cremation. The article goes on mentioning the previous position of the Church, but really.... it has nothing to do with the piece of news itself. It is perhaps a way to write a few more words into the article as, otherwise, it may have been a bit short.....
I am glad to hear that you are a Roman Catholic and there is nothing wrong with accepting the shortcomings of your own church both past and present, I am the first one to admit that in many cases they did not follow Christ's teachings; however, this was a bit unnecessary in this particular case. The topic of the thread related to the greed and delinquent behaviour of the owners of the crematorium. We were not discussing religion but crime.
As for vitriol, it is not my favourite drink... it takes a lot to get me to react; however, this time you crossed that thin line and I showed my carefully manicured claws. No hard feelings, though, I believe in the old teachings of "forgive and forget". Again, pax vobiscum.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I think that the moderator should remove these writings. A forum like this should be of the joys of living in Italy. And the postings above is not joyful. Nor helpful to anybody.

Torchiarolan, you are entitled to your own opinions and I respect them; however, I thought that your comments and accusations about the Church were unnecessary in this thread.
I have never and I would never go to the moderators complaining... this is not my style. I simply say it straight to you, not behind your back and then, as you have done it, you can defend your position. I also think that it is more interesting for the Forum.
As for "pax vobiscum" it is an expression I always use, everywhere. I belong to the older generations, when Latin was compulsory and I find it very useful; however, if you are post-Vatican II, I will say "the peace be with you". Cheers,

Surely the purpose of the original post here was to warn people, (like me) who plan to be cremated here in Italy, of the possibility of [I][U]criminal practices[/U][/I] in that industry.

I am very grateful for the information, but it won't make me change my mind on my choice which was NEVER based on my religion. I am not a Roman Catholic, but do like to think that I am a Christian and as such it saddens me that such a sensitive subject should be turned into a (somewhat heated) discussion on the question of the stance of the Roman Catholic church on the matter.

A person's choice of the type of burial they want is after all a [I][U]very[/U][/I] personal one, often made after a great deal of serious thought and discussion with their loved ones and, [I]maybe[/I] even their priest.

So [I]please[/I] - can it be treated in the same manner here? With the respect it surely deserves!

Goodness gracious! If Torchiarolan's avatar shows a "deep problem" what on earth does CaroleB's avatar show us?

I think it's time to change mine to a apotropaic talisman before I'm struck down by the wrath of a bolt of lightning. :laughs:

Er excuse me, off thread, but perhaps not a bad thing , how do I create an avatar for myself ?, I shall probably use my picture of Oscar (do look on Pets Corner) .
As for this thread, yes a serious and emotional subject for many and should be treated with sensitivity, as I am sure was Galas intention.
A

This is the way the news were reported by the Italian press, without any controversy sparkling regarding religion, and this is the way it should have been reported by the British press.... without any unnecesary additions:

[url=http://lanazione.ilsole24ore.com/massa_carrara/2008/08/14/111609-finte_cremazioni_arresti.shtml]La Nazione - Massa Carrara - Finte cremazioni, 13 arresti Nascondevano le salme[/url]

[quote=juliancoll;94931]Goodness gracious! If Torchiarolan's avatar shows a "deep problem" what on earth does CaroleB's avatar show us?

I think it's time to change mine to a apotropaic talisman before I'm [I][COLOR="red"][B]struck down by the wrath of a bolt of lightning.[/B][/COLOR][/I] :laughs:[/quote]

Off topic I'm afraid - but in friendly response to the above [IMG]http://www.csus.edu/web/images_library/arrows/uparrow_yellow.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.oldwarrenpointforum.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/rotfl.gif[/IMG] Nice try 'jc' but I'm afraid you've got the wrong idea completely from my avatar... It was changed when we were having all the very bad storms in the Valtellina a while back.

The storms here at the top of the lake are famous for 'getting stuck' and hanging about for hours. For example the one last night began with thunder and lightning at about 9pm and continued for the next 6 1/2 HOURS!!! The lightning is usually spectacular among and above the Alps here. I really enjoy watching it and wish I could photograph it too. But until I learn, I'll make do with my 'non threatening' avatar.

Maybe the recent storms, (we do get them here in Toscana too, just had hail the size of walnuts!) will cool this very sensitive subject.

I, like Carole, also plan to be cremated here in Italy and then a nice little niche in the English cemetry in Florence. That's if life doesn't get in the way in the meantime. Would prefer to have most of me in the urn...

As an aside, have heard that you have to join a 'cremation society' ie. register your wish to be cremated during your lifetime. Any news on this appreciated. Think I got this from the absolutely lovely woman who manages the English Cemetery in Florence. The Florence consulate also has info.

For now, just looking out on a garden that has taken a real battering from the hail,,,

[quote=Carole B;94951]Off topic I'm afraid - but in friendly response to the above [IMG]http://www.csus.edu/web/images_library/arrows/uparrow_yellow.gif[/IMG]

Haha Carole, I honestly didn't have the wrong idea about your avatar, it just made me laugh to see a "bolt of lightning" at a very appropriate time in this thread. I'm glad (hope) you took the post in the spirit it was meant - as a way to [I]"lighten"[/I] up the thread a little. I love storms, especially in Italy and look forwad to seeing some of your (yet to be learnt) photographic skills.

[quote=Angie and Robert;94934]Er excuse me, off thread, but perhaps not a bad thing , how do I create an avatar for myself ?, I shall probably use my picture of Oscar (do look on Pets Corner) .
As for this thread, yes a serious and emotional subject for many and should be treated with sensitivity, as I am sure was Galas intention.
A[/quote]
Go to your control panel Angie and then edit avatar. You should then be able to add the picture that you want.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Well, you are tempting me to go into discussion again...
Regarding the Templars, my opinion is that they were destroyed simply because they had become too powerful, both politically and economically and both the Church and the Kingdom of France found them too dangerous. So they resorted to the good old trick of condemning them for religious reasons.... although it seems now as if the Pope recognised that they were not heretics.... Anyway, they were disbanded and most of them killed. The old story in all civilizations....There are no direct descendants of the Templars. Recent claims made in Spain are just false and the so called "new Templars" are a group of people who would like to get into one of the established Orders and are unable to do so for different reasons. See this link:
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/2495343/Knights-Templar-heirs-in-legal-battle-with-the-Pope.html]Knights Templar heirs in legal battle with the Pope - Telegraph[/url]
As for the Cathars, it is a totally different story which ended up the same way, meaning that they were exterminated. Or so they thought.... The big difference is that there has always been Cathars, although they hide their beliefs from both civil and religious authorities, for obvious reasons. The death of a large number of Cathars has not extinguished them, and ,as far as I am concerned, they can go on thinking and believing whatever they want, as long as they do not want to impose it on me or on any other person. They should be able to follow their doctrines and be treated with respect.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I don't think that he is going to get married.... again....
Another point which may interest you is the subject of "Orders" that I mentioned before.
This order is based in Italy and it is one of the few surviving. They managed to put themselves always on the "right" side:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta]Sovereign Military Order of Malta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
Spain also has some surviving orders and a few countries have managed to keep them going. But the Templars.... they are finished. Good subject for novels, though.....

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I think that you refer to "The Siege of Malta:1565" by E. Bradford, which used a translation of a
version written at the time of the siege by a Spanish mercenary. Very interesting book for those who love history.

Without geting involved in religion,
I tnink it would be a good idea to discuss the awful subject of what to do if someone dies suddenly in Italy. I know many of my friends and myself are worried about this.
As you know they do not waste time getting you buried here. My friend's mother died at 04.30am and we were at her funeral at 5pm the same day.
My children are worried that they could never be here in time for a funeral, and therefore we had thought about cremation, however, I was told that the authorities would never release the ashes.
Also I wonder where are the crematoriums in Southern Italy ?
When my sister-in-law died, although my husband booked a flight as soon as was possible , when he arrived the funeral was already over. He was very upset. We were living in the UK at the time.
Although this is not a subject ( like wills) that we like to talk about, I am sure it would be a good idea to have some sort of plan in place.
Pjay

I was interested by your question and I did a bit of a search. I recommend you to have a look at this page:
[url=http://www.ofarchetti.com/servizi1.htm#]Onoranze Funebri Archetti[/url]
in particular what they say about "cremazioni".
Apparently, in Italy the ashes have to be buried at a cemetery. But they do offer cremation services in your province.
Also, look at the requisites regarding authorising cremation.

[quote=Gala Placidia;95600]...... in Italy the ashes have to be buried at a cemetery........[/quote]

I'll be cremated in UK, as will my wife.
Hopefully not for some time yet [both of us - not just her!]

Someone will have to do some surreptitious [and that's harder to spell than even say] scattering over favourite Italian places ['Our' lake and mountain]

This is the link for the guidelines on how and what you must do to be cremated in Italy.
[URL="http://www.cremazione.it/index_Page3945.htm"][B]>Cremazione in Italia<[/B][/URL]

I'm sorry it's only in Italian, but if you understand some of the language it is very concise. You can even download the 'request for cremation' from from this page. This can be completed and registered at the appropriate office and will be respected wherever the applicant dies in Italy. This ensures that your wishes are registered, as required, beforehand.

It might be that the British (or other) Consulate may hold such information in English. I say this because it does seem that your family cannot ask for you to be cremated unless you have made your wishes know BEFORE THE FACT!

I agree, it is a painful subject, but I have recently gone through all the necessary requirements with my son and am now putting in place the documentation to allow for my wishes to be respected by the authorities here with as little (or NO hassle) for him when [B]'it'[/B] happens...

Many thanks to you all for this very interesting information. Will look into this and it will certainly put my mind at rest.

Pjay

Hi Carole B

Many thanks for the link, I understood from the woman who 'manages' the English Cemetery in Florence that you needed to 'join' a society to express your wish to be cremated but now fully understand. Thanks. A painful subject but like taxes one we cannot avoid.

Best wishes

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"