10245 Shocking News: Child Slavery In Italy

[quote=Gala Placidia;95321].....................When a child comes to me begging, even if I am certain that he/she is being exploited I still give them some money as I always fear the consequences if he comes back to the "maffiosi" who exploit him/her empty handed...................[/quote]

There we differ - I never give them money, in the hope that if everybody refused, then the 'minders' would give up trying this type of 'blackmail' and stop using the children. In the same way - I never give money to the women with children who beg on the London underground.

I'm sure, however, that there isn't a simple answer to this problem.

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Call me hard-hearted, callous, uncaring or whatever, but I'm with Alan H on this one.

There are social security "safety nets" in place in all Western European countries. Some might argue that they don't pay out enough to maintain a "decent standard of living" (whatever that might mean), but there is no need for mothers and children in Britain to beg in order to stave off starvation and have some form of shelter for the night. I know little of social security provision in Italy, but I've always assumed it's equally unnecessary here, so beggars are just a sordid business which plays on the better nature of people.

...But doesn't work too well on those of us who have no better nature to be exploited!

I observed a Roma child begging outside a church in a town in Calabria. A local Italian woman stopped and offered to buy him some bread but he said he needed money.
Near where I was staying there was a small Roma 'encampment' near the beach on a disused but enclosed piece of land. What I noticed was the number of Sky dishes on the vehicles and the number with mobile phones.
I too have little knowledge of the Italian social security system but suspect it is less generous than the UK's. How do these groups survive? Do they subsist solely on the proceeds of begging and charitable handouts?

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. These are the "invisible people", both adults and children. They are illegals, exploited mainly by mafias from their own country of origin. They cannot have access to social security nets because if they start dealing with the government they know that they can be deported. Yes, we know that there is "free circulation" of EU nationals, but that does not give you legal residency in a country other than yours. You have to comply with a series of documents, to have a fixed residence with a proper address... not the shanty town under the bridge... and a long etc. Also, this would not cover the non EU nationals who arrive every day in Europe.
As far as I know, the Catholic organisation "Caritas" tries very hard to help these people, but they lack resources and it is a drop in an ocean of need.
In my opinion, governments should persecute the mafias who exploit these people, and this should not be too difficult, I have seen with my own eyes a guy driving in a car a group of derelicts and invalids to beg around the central area in a Spanish town. Now, are the authorities blind? Can't they see all this going on? The beggars, both adult and children are doing it openly in the streets. Can't they do something about it? At least protect the children by putting them in some kind of centre where they will be educated and looked after. To separate children from their own families is never a suitable action; however, if the child is at risk, his/her safety are paramount. By the way, children cannot be extradited or put into jail or correctional for minor offences. But they need to be taken away from this delinquent way of life as there will not be much hope for them when they grow up.
What is needed is organised action by all government authorities to protect the unprotected, the "invisibles". After all, this is part of their mission statement. Isn't it?

P.S. Sorry, I forgot another helpful organisation: The Red Cross

Oh Gala, if only we all lived in your perfect world! I would rather see kids begging on the steet and kept with their families than to have them taken away to institutions in the hope of acheiving someone elses idea of a better life.

There is often NOTHING worse than taking a child away from perhaps the only way of life its community knows - even if delinquent.

The American author who lives in Venice, Donna Leon, seems to have her finger on the pulse, and produces an Inspector Brunetti story, just before the subject matter hits the headlines. I would suggest reading Suffer the Little Children.
I give to all beggars, just a few coins, that I won't miss, as I cannot just walk by... as there by the grace of god etc.

JC, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that all children should be removed from their families and taken into institutions just for begging. I am looking only at the extreme cases, those where the children are sold to slavery, drug traficking and prostitution as it is stated in the article. I believe in providing needy families with all the necessary help so that they can stay together. I also believe in educating the families, because, in many cases, they come from a very underprivileged background where certain things are allowed as part of their normal lives. Nevertheless, we will always be speaking about a small percentage of families. But many of these children come to EU countries without the benefit of having a family. Some are simply sent with no papers, no money, no contacts, nothing. An easy prey for the mafias. Then, it is the responsibility of governments to look after them, educate them and try to secure a future for them. Every day, these lonely children are arriving to EU countries under deplorable conditions, particularly from Northern Africa.
So my world is not perfect... on the contrary.
Still, even if I say to myself that I am doing the wrong thing, I will continue giving them some money if they ask me. But I would prefer a better life and better opportunities for them. This is what they deserve, not charity.

I hate and loathe the men who profit from this business.

So many times now I've seen them shouting at these women and pushing them about.I've seen black women being pushed and abused by their pimps at Pescara bus station.Roma woman pushed about at Tiburtina train station.You can only imagine the horrific abuse that must go on behind the scenes.

What kind of society are we living in where this can continue unchallenged?

This is what horrifies me, the indifference, the belief that everything is just fine. No, it is not. Women, children, the less fortunate are all in danger. And we are in the 21st Century!!!! We should be able to fix these problems. Is it worth going to the Moon or Mars if we can't find solutions to the problems we have on Earth? These articles shocked me and worried me enormously because it is easy to report the problems... but where are the solutions?
There is child slavery not only in Italy, but in many other countries. And this is not right. Is there a solution? I believe there should be. But then, I have always been an optimist....

Being that there appears to be no social-security benefits in Italy (if there is can someone please point us in the direction for it), i can see how they end up on the streets begging.

We ended up almost begging to our local mayor last winter, because we couldn't get any benefits or work and our debts were mounting up. We were basically left to rot. So much for EU equal rules.

There is, has been and always will be, exploitation of the weak by the strong.

There is no use wringing hands and handing out a few coppers whilst also owning holiday homes, which would house a family and are left empty for most of the year or owning swimming pools that cost more to run than a family in Africa exists on etc etc.

And certainly don't look to the church for solutions! I have dealt with the aftermath of lads who were entrusted to the care of the 'Catholic Brothers' in Ireland and who would have fared better if they were left on the streets.

It is all very well to say society or governments must deal with the problem but is anyone here honestly going to give up their comfortable life style so others can be saved from a life of poverty and misery? We may give them our spare change but who amongst us will give them our second home?

If government actually decided to levy an extra tax on all the ‘wealthy’ in order to support the poor, well they would not be in government long.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I may again be an optimist as I do thing that there are solutions which could be implemented:

1.- Persecute the mafias exploiting these people. Governments should be extremely tough and put them in jail through real life sentences.

2.- Make an organised effort to improve living conditions, mostly in underdeveloped countries, those are the ones who are likely to send their children into slavery, mostly because there are no other choices.

3.- Reinforce safety nets so that people in need can be helped, everywhere.

It is going to cost money.... I know, but I would not complain if a fair wealth tax is created for this particular purpose. And I mean "fair taxes" according to everybody's economic status.

Not easy, but it could work.

Thats a point of view I 've heard so often Neilo and the problem is it does rather leeave people feeling theres nothing they can do .Because someone is not going to give a house away does not mean that anything else they do is worthless!

On the contary its the small things that people can do that make a difference to people;like buying a Big Issue instead of a cappucino,or subscribing to amnesty, legambiente etc.Or just running an eldery neighbour to the shops once a week.

Back to the exploitation of children/women if it cannot be stopped overnight at least it should become a less attractive proposition for pimps and traffickers .If members of the public can spot them whats to stop the police arresting and charging them?

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

What would Jesus have done?

Phil.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Ok so a government decides to really tackle the problem.

The first thing they do is to compulsorily confiscate all second homes. After all why should some people have two homes whilst others have none?

Then they nationalise industry, and create collective farms, they could have a slogan ‘From each according to his ability, to each according to his need'

The government could also deal with population growth by limiting families to only one child. Food could be rationed so that the amount produced is shared fairly with everyone.

Of course the cost of keeping people in prison is prohibitive so they could be put to work, in gulags?

I think that this has been tried before but human nature is such that the strong will still manage to beat the system and have more. Communism is the only rational answer but humans are not rational.

I do not believe that buying a copy of the big issue is anything more than sticking a plaster on a gaping festering wound. Now if someone said, I have given my holiday home, with the sun terrace and swimming pool to a family of Roma so that hey can leave their corrugated iron shack and live in comfort and I am donating half my income to them so that their children can go to private schools and gain an education and qualifications to ensure that the next generation is able to support itself, well I'd be suitably impressed.

Lets face it we are all very privileged, we all have much more than we actually NEED, If we really, really cared we would share our wealth rather than just say ‘well I’d be prepared to pay higher taxes’ or come on a forum and say how terrible things are and that someone (else) should do something.

Just one person making personal sacrifices or donations will be like a drop of water in an ocean of need. We will all be impressed... but that's it. Tackling these worldwide problems needs a concerted effort, not isolated actions.
Nielo, I understand that you are exaggerating a bit to show what could happen; however, perhaps as an optimist, I still believe that these changes could be made within the framework of democratic countries.
I agree with Torchiarolan that many corrupt governments in underdeveloped countries put into their pockets the monies that come as a help to their respective nations. There are also welfare organisations where similar things happen...
Still, I would like to see something positive done. Perhaps, it is just a dream... but this is a nightmare.

My nightmare would be if someone came along and took away my second home (if I had one) and said that I had to give away (through extra taxes) some of my income, simply becase I had been fortunate enough to have more than another.

Yes, I'm selfish but, that doesn't mean I'm ungrateful or unsympathetic - just that I understand how the world turns and twists and always deals someone a bum hand.

[quote=Chaib;95363]What would Jesus have done?

Phil.[/quote]

Good question, Phil. My guess is that He would have tried to do some good action and that He would end up crucified.... again.
On the other hand, a miracle could help as we don't seem to find our way in the darkness.

But J&C by accepting that is how the world turns and that someone will always have a "bum" deal is never going to help towards improving peoples situations. As has been discussed there is and never has been an easy solution to the imbalance, but nothing changes if people are not prepared to try to challenge inequality, you disregard the attempts of reformers through history if you believe there is nothing you personally can do.
A

Angie, accepting this is how it is, isn't defeatist. Someone is always going to be at the "bottom of the list". Who would you suggest needs to be helped after you have gotten rid of the child slavery problem? If, for example, the child slavery problem was removed - someone else obviously would then replace them at the bottom of the list. Ad infinitum.

I'm only giving an example here Angie - not picking you out individually - my questions are for everyone, but let me ask you - what are YOU prepared to do? I mean what are YOU really prepared to do to change this (or any other) situation?

Are you prepared to give up earnings taken through extra taxes, or perhaps allow a homeless family to sleep in your spare room, or offer shelter in your cantina, with perhaps a plate of spaghetti and some bread every day? Are you prepared to donate your time, lets say, by voluteering to help out in a charity shop 3 or 4 days a week - or to protest with placards outside the commune each and every morning for six months? Are you prepared to foster and care for just one orphaned child - maybe from Africa, who has lost it's parents due to famine/conflict/AIDs? Are you prepared to hand out food/medicines in any of the places that need it, or to help just one of the children scavenging within the rubbish tips and favelas of Brazil, to make sure they eat at least once a day, have clean water and a pair of shoes?

If YOU are prepared to do ANYTHING - then why aren't you?

I'm lazy, selfish and wont be doing anything like that - apart from typing a post on this thread.

[quote=Gala Placidia;95376]Just one person making personal sacrifices or donations will be like a drop of water in an ocean of need. We will all be impressed... but that's it. .[/quote]

If giving away your second home is a pointless gesture then surely it is even more pointless to give some loose change to a beggar?

Please don’t take this personally Gala or anyone else, but do people give because they honestly believe that they are making a difference or is it just to ease their own conscience?

I worked for many years as a fundraiser for charity and, while there were a few genuinely altruistic donations, the vast majority were made for far more selfish reasons.

I can only answer for myself, when I give the money I always think that perhaps with that the child, or woman, or invalid who is begging will not be hurt by those who exploit them. I know it is wrong, perhaps, but I cannot do otherwise.
In my case, I also did lots of voluntary work in the past for charities. I stopped doing it because it was not always a pleasant experience. Targets were not reached, money seemed to "evaporate" in ancillary expenditure... I opted for not doing it any longer because it hurts. I now have 4 beggars that I help out on a regular basis. I give money to Caritas and the Red Cross and I help other charities as well. I don't think that this eases my conscience or makes me feel better. I simply do what I can at this stage. But I still hope that a concerted effort will achieve something more positive. And I would not mind paying extra taxes for that, providing the monies are efficiently administered.

Individual acts of kindness are just that and no more, and of themselves won't solve anything. I don't like the "What are YOU doing about it?" question, it's mostly irrelevant. There are plenty of organisations working in all of these fields, and for most of us the best we can do is support them in a variety of ways which are insignificant in themselves but collectively add up.

Since behind many of these problems lies the oppression of women, that's where I put my tiny effort

Er, J&C not that you were to know but I spent most of my working life , working with homeless and disadvantaged people and the latter years of work with young people.So I guess I did my bit, however frustrating and at many times how unrewarding, and hard that was, oh and thinking about some of it dangerous as well.But I felt I had advantages that others didnt so tried to pass some of it on.As I said you werent to know , but thats what I did for over 20yrs,
A

Many years ago, when I was living in Australia, I was a member of an international organisation, called ZONTA. I don't know if you are aware of them, just in case, here is a link to know more about what Zonta does: [url=http://www.zonta.org/site/PageServer]Zonta International: homepage[/url]
Those were very rewarding times as we used to work a lot for the advancement of women, particularly those in underdeveloped countries.
Our programs were great and they produced results.
When I moved to Europe, I was unable to find a similar organisation nearby, so I went and helped a bit here and there... but it was not the same thing. I could never get the same satisfaction of seeing useful programs implemented.
I liked what Anne wrote, because I feel the same. There is an old saying which states that when you educate a man, you educate an individual; when you educate a woman, you educate a family. Nothing against you, guys, but it is true that women tend to better spread their knowledge and resources to help others.
I strongly believe that if we could better educate and help women around the world we would reduce the number of slave children significantly. Women are very protective of their children and they will really fight to get better opportunities for their families. Unfortunately, things are not easy for them and they are also exploited by certain people, and I say people, not men, because I think that it has nothing to do with a particular sex. So don't get offended, guys.

[quote=Angie and Robert;95387]Er, J&C not that you were to know but I spent most of my working life , working with homeless and disadvantaged people and the latter years of work with young people.So I guess I did my bit, however frustrating and at many times how unrewarding, and hard that was, oh and thinking about some of it dangerous as well.But I felt I had advantages that others didnt so tried to pass some of it on.As I said you werent to know , but thats what I did for over 20yrs,
A[/quote]

Angie - like I said - I really wasn't singling you out and thanks for letting me know about your previous activities. May I ask if this was your career? I mean did you do it as a job - where you received a salary - or was it voluntary?

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Torchiarolan - your heroic past efforts dwarf mine, but I think they also illustrate my view that short-term nothing will change. But then a little over a hundred years ago we in the UK were sending small children up chimneys and down mines. Although it doesn't have the same immediate feelgood result, identifying and assisting those organisations with long-term aims for change (be they political or charitable) would be where I'd put my money.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I don't think that there is selfishness when you decide to quit voluntary work. That you get worn out and partially disillusioned... I totally agree . Also, you start feeling that you have done your bit and that somebody else can take over from where you are leaving. You get older, there is not anymore that strength that kept you going....But your heart is still with those who suffer and you keep on hoping that something positive will take place and change their lives. Also, we are human beings and we have our weaknesses, you can't be strong all the time facing injustice and poverty. So we choose the easy way: not to look at all this face to face. Otherwise, we would be on the road to sanctity and only a few achieve that...

I'm sure you will be one of them Gala. Your reward will come.

Thank you, juliancoll.... I can assure you that I will not be on that list.....

I'm not trying to be sanctimonious nor make a particular point nor in particular denigrate the excellent well minded efforts of others but I just thought it interesting that a thread on child slavery and poverty in Italy would get 35 replies and 816 views whilst a thread on homes for puppies would get 134 replies and 1,134 views.

You certainly have a point Postmac. When I emailed an Italian friend to say we could not have a holiday in the Cinque Terra because the Ferrovia would no longer allow our dog to travel on the train she typed back that the animal rights people would put a stop to that ridiculous rule. They were far more effective than those trying to save Italian schools from drastic cut backs. She was correct!

[quote=Postmac;102806]I'm not trying to be sanctimonious nor make a particular point nor in particular denigrate the excellent well minded efforts of others but I just thought it interesting that a thread on child slavery and poverty in Italy would get 35 replies and 816 views whilst a thread on homes for puppies would get 134 replies and 1,134 views.[/quote]

Well I for one was on holiday when the thread was started and only saw it for the first time five minutes ago.
Maybe as the thread was started in August and the last post was then many regulars and indeed lurkers were away. :smile:

Unfortunately, the piece of news which prompted this thread appeared in August and I do not think the article is available nowadays. At least, I can't open it. But, as you say, perhaps the timing had something to do with the number of people visiting the thread or contributing to it.

(Yes I checked your link a few minutes ago for the first time and it doesn't work alas.)

Trying to find the original article but in the meantime, this one might well be similar - [url=http://current.com/items/89227162/child_slave_trade_booming_italian_report_says.htm]Child slave trade booming, Italian report says // Current[/url]

I think Postmac's observation is interesting, but perhaps it has more to do with the practicalities of looking at a thread where a reader might be able to do something useful to help.

Thinking about whether you could adopt a puppy, or simply giving encouragement to the known individuals looking after the creatures, is a direct way of solving the problem, rather than the detached global politicised handwringing about child slavery.

I've just had to stop myself from posting (that's a first!!) on the "new puppy thread" because I am angry, but didn't want to moan about the forum being turned into Battersea and overun with stray pups etc.

Why am I so angry?

I've just finished reading a report about the poor mite who was tortured and battered to death, left with a broken spine caused by being bashed over someones knee or a bannister, where a Paedriatrician didn't spot his many broken ribs or that he was paralysed from his spinal injury and said she couldn't examine him because he was "cranky"!

This poor child had been on the 'at risk register' for months and received over 60 visits from Social Workers who allowed the mother to fob them off as she covered up his bruises and other injuries with chocolate spread!!

We need a "I want to scream" icon.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;102821]Trying to find the original article but in the meantime, this one might well be similar - [URL="http://current.com/items/89227162/child_slave_trade_booming_italian_report_says.htm"]Child slave trade booming, Italian report says // Current[/URL][/quote]

Yes, unfortunately I couldn't open Gala's article either but was astonished when I read yours Sally.
The known figures alone are unbelievable and that it is happening in a so called civilised country is frightning.
But maybe I'm just being naive?

Seems then perhaps katier's title -- "myth of child friendly Italy!" wasn't far off the mark after all then .....

[quote=Postmac;102806]I'm not trying to be sanctimonious nor make a particular point nor in particular denigrate the excellent well minded efforts of others but I just thought it interesting that a thread on child slavery and poverty in Italy would get 35 replies and 816 views whilst a thread on homes for puppies would get 134 replies and 1,134 views.[/quote]

I agree totally. I thought the same about the level of replies/views to the puppies thread and that of the young Roma girls drowning. (sorry, I tried to copy and paste the link to that thread but 'computer said no')

It depends surely on what the competing threads are at the same time. Maybe when this thread was posted, there were many others of equal quality. Whereas there wasn't much competition around at the time of the advent of the puppies thread.

Also in the case of the puppies thread it was an ongoing story and a request for help. People felt involved .

I think we know our limitations.

I know there is very little I can personally do to prevent child slavery in Italy or anywhere else. The scale of the problem is too big.

On the other hand if we are talking about six small puppies needing help, I can relate to that more easily.

Actually I know that I should be more concerned and perhaps do more to make the world better, but I personally have enough to cope with (including two rescued cats and two rescued dogs)

My days of banner waving are over and now I just want to care about my own responsibilities and let others fight the good fight.

Writing a tirade on a little forum like this isn’t going to make much difference anyway.

God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

I basically agree with you, Nielo, our forum is not going to change the world. But perhaps we need to be a bit more aware about what is really going on around us instead of simply talking about those little things that make us feel better. And I am all in favour of those small things such as rescueing the puppies or anyone in need. And I love that prayer, I say it many times....

Gala I would not for one minute suggest that anyone should be unaware of what goes on around them, big or little things. Nor do I think any subject should not be discussed.

I merely think that when people come to Italy Mag they do not do so with any ideas about changing the world. Many have looked at this thread and I hope gone away from it better informed but the subject is such a vast problem, they probably don’t know how to respond, it is not something they come across in their daily lives and is also not something that has an instant and simple solution.

The puppies thread on the other hand, will attract more interest and also more response because people do feel that there is a possibility of becoming usefully involved – even if it is only to offer support and encouragement to those doing all the practical things to save the puppies.

I don’t think it shows people are any less concerned about the BIG problems, just that it is more difficult to get involved if they know that, at the end of the day, their contribution will make no difference.