10300 Self Employment

"- as long as I don't poison anyone in the process."

That may be the rub. The need to have some kind of hygiene qualification which you can only do within a full catering one perhaps. I'm intrigued by what members here will come up with.

I did a bit of a search on the subject through google.it and I found this, which relates to Torino, but possibly it is the same type of requisites everywhere:

[url=http://www.informagiovani-italia.com/Come%20avviare%20un%20bar.htm]Come avviare un Bar[/url]

Go on searching through google.it using the words "Licenza bar" and you may find useful information.
Is this your only alternative? What about other activities which you could also envisage?Without wanting to discourage you, as you may have some innovative ideas and it may be a successful venture, there are plenty of bars, coffee shops, trattorias in Italy. Perhaps you are overlooking other possibilities which could also work very well for you.
Best wishes with your plans,

Gala in a nutshell do you have to have a catering qualification??? My Italian is so limited.

As for the idea. Well people always want to eat and drink. Maybe a shortage or non existent, I know (unlikely) in one particular spot will help him to decide where to move to???

Yes, you need formal qualifications or to sit for an examination conducted by the Chamber of Commerce, but you need to fulfill some requisites concerning studies and experience as well. The information is a bit vague and they advise to contact the local Chamber of Commerce for further details.
I also agree that people always want to eat and drink, but I do not think that there is a shortage of establishments and where they do not exist is simply because there is not enough business. Some bars and restaurants only open during the summer months.
Without wanting to be negative, as there are always people with great ideas that succeed, I would be very careful and look at other possibilities as well. All this will require careful planning and to get a good knowledge of the area where you want to develop your activity. A real business plan and feasibility study.

You can always compete with slightly lower prices or offer some different/unique service to single out "your" bar.

Yes study is a pain at a later age, (well at any age. lol) and I wonder what businesses then in Italy can be set up without formal qualifications.

Hi Sally & Gala,

Thanks for the suggestions, - I'll get moving on Google asap.

What's irritating me about the situation is that Adriana and I already have recognised Food Hygiene certificates. We both have the Elementary Food Hygiene Certificate and I have the Intermediate Food Hygiene Certificate - which is meant for those who aspire to Manager/Owners of bars and restaurants. Both of these were done through the Royal Environmental Health Institute of Scotland (REHIS) and are, according to REHIS, recognised not only by the UK government as the bench mark standard, but also recognised by the EU, which presumably means that they are recognised in Italy.

I ran this situation by my brother, who is a qualified chef and he had a good laugh about it. He reckons that my Intermediate Cert., is at least as good as that part of his course syllabus that covered food hygiene. He also pointed out that operating a commercial espresso coffee machine, making a few sub sandwiches and serving chilled desserts and ice cream is not exactly rocket science and shouldn't need a catering qualification.

We have looked at a couple of other options. Adriana is a qualified Nursery Nurse, so we looked at starting a Day Nursery. But there was a major problem. The fees for nursery care are so low in Italy that we couldn't see how we could make a decent profit. In fact, given that the staff/child ratios and the space requirements are more or less the same in Italy as they are in the UK, I don't really see that it would be possible to make any profit at all unless one was prepared to break the law and either ignore these requirements or employ people 'on the black' at well below minimum wage and without paying social security contributions - or both. And frankly speaking I don't fancy doing time in an Italian jail.

I also looked at the possibility of an English Language School. But the same problem seems to raise its head here. Lesson fees are so low that you'd need a vast number of pupils to make it even marginally profitable.

So I'm out of ideas at the moment, which is why I'm persevering with the coffee bar project. I know that there are a lot of coffee bars in Italy, but I've never seen an empty one, - or at least not in those places which combine tourism with a large permanent population.

Having said that I'm always open to ideas............

Cheers,

Geraint

[quote=Sally Donaldson;95743]............. and I wonder what businesses then in Italy can be set up without formal qualifications.[/quote]

Yes, - I'm getting to the point of asking our commercialista that question!!!

Cheers,

Geraint

Well, you both have Food Hygiene Certificates and there should be a recognition of those in place. At least, you would both qualify to sit for the exams, at least that's what I think.
Get in touch with the relevant Chamber of Commerce and get their opinion.
And keep all your options open.
Best wishes,

The other possibilty is that there are many businesses for sale and these can be found online. Also consider an online business??? Delivering sandwiches, drinks in a fair sized town/city??? Having suggested the last, whether that would work given the culture. Having a B+B??? Offering activity breaks/tours???

Another idea, there is a group for Liguria in this Forum. Look at the top under "Groups". Perhaps you could join them and do a bit of networking with them. Local help or advice is what you need.

Hi,

Re recognition. We have been in touch with a lady at the Education section of the Provincial Council of Imperia (having failed to get any sense out of the guy in the licencing department who seemed to believe that it's not his job to stoop to giving out information). When she gets back to work tomorrow after the August shutdown, this lady is going to look at our Food Hygiene Certs - or at the translation of the syllabus she has asked for. I'm hoping she'll say that they are sufficient in themselves and that we need nothing else and that she'll give us an official letter confirming this. Of course, we're still going to have get it past the jobsworth in the licencing department. BTW, I hadn't realised that the Camera di Commercio had its own exams you could sit, - I'll look into this.

Re., buying an existing business. Our commercialista mentioned something about this just before she went off on holiday, saying something about it being easier. I wondered what she was getting at, but by the time I got home from work and Adriana told me what she'd said it was too late, her office was already shut. We're going down to see her during the school holidays in October and hopefully she'll have some more info for us. However, I've read some of the stuff on the council website and, offhand, I can't see where it helps to buy an existing business. As far as I can see the licence resides in the owner's person and not in the business. A bit like a Public House licence in the UK., i.e., when a new landlord takes over a Pub, he can't operate until he's been down to the Magistrates' Court to get his own licence. However, - she may know different, - in which case I'll look into it.

The commercialista's other suggestion was that we take on a partner who has the necessary certificate. I've told her that I'm not even considering this and that I'd rather die in penury in the UK. I mean, one of my most important reasons for wanting to be self-employed is the freedom and autonomy it gives and I'm not prepared to have that curtailed by having to run every decision past some outsider.

Re. other types of business. I think that delivering sandwiches/drinks would work if it was being done out of a bar, i.e., as an extra service - but I'm not so sure whether it would work as a stand alone business. B&B was something we were thinking of asking our commercialista about, - but again it just depends on the licence requirements. maybe I'd need a catering qualification for that as well. :rolleyes: It'd also have to be possible for it to be done from rented premises, - we don't have the resources to buy the kind of property that'd be suitable for a B&B. But I do quite fancy the idea.

Cheers,

Geraint

[quote=Gala Placidia;95757]Another idea, there is a group for Liguria in this Forum. Look at the top under "Groups". Perhaps you could join them and do a bit of networking with them. Local help or advice is what you need.[/quote]

Thanks Gala, that's a great idea. I'm really glad I posed my question on this forum. It's always good to feel that one is not alone and that there are people out there willing to help.

Cheers,

Geraint

[quote=WelshLibrarian;95727][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]Hi,[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]Don't know if this is the right place for this as it's not strictly speaking about looking for employment but an issue that has arisen re. self-employment.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]My wife and I are looking into the possibility of setting up in business running a Coffee/Sandwich Bar. We're having some difficulty with getting the right info and we're hoping that someone here can help us out.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]If we have understood correctly, it seems that - quite apart from the 'normal' bureacratic hoops that one has to go through - it is also necessary to have some kind of catering qualification in order to be granted a licence from the local authority to run this kind of business. One commercialista we spoke to even thought that I'd have to have a full blown Hotel Management Diploma - the kind that takes 4 - 5 years in the UK - which I though was a daft idea.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]I have to admit that - being accustomed to the UK situation in which there are virtually no restrictions - I was a bit taken aback at the necessity for [B][I]any[/I][/B] kind of qualification for running this kind of business, with the possible exception of a mid-level Food Safety Certificate, which I already have. After all, it's my Bar and if it goes bust through my own incompetence, that is surely my affair, - as long as I don't poison anyone in the process.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]Anyway, that's the issue I'm hoping someone will be able to help me out with. Thanks in advance.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]Cheers,[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]Geraint[/SIZE][/FONT] :veryconfused:[/quote]
Hi,
1. if you're both hard working( and can also be a little imaginative/creative etc) a bar can still today be quite a lucrative business.
2. it is vital that it is in the right place,which doesn't mean the nicest place necessarily,for example a bar near the station/criminal courts/large markets etc is much better than a nice street in a nice area .
3.indipendently of any qualifications you may have and whether or not they will be recognised you'll have to do one of the courses they run periodically thru the chamber of commerce,they are relatively simple and with that you'll be able to get your licence to run your bar.the chamber of commerce is the place which should be able to give you all the low down.
4. don't bother with b&b ,unless it's your own property and preferably in a city like Roma ,firenze,genova where if you had enough good rooms they could be full most of the time otherwise you will DEFINITELY NOT make enough money to live on.
5. If you carry on with the bar idea you'll need all the cash you can get anyway to,maybe buy an existing bar's licence,refurbish etc anyway.
6. find a decent commercialista(the last one you mentioned sounded like an a**+++e
7. he will/should explain to you in any case how the burocracy side will work for example like inps (ssn contributions) which you start paying from the first day whether or not you've actually earned anything...a few basic notions on how the tax system works here..vat..
8. it would be advisable for you and your wife to be in a regime of "separazione dei beni"if you're not do it it will in the long run save you taxation and should anything/everything go wobbly could also protect at least say your home etc.
9. don't bother with language schools it would suck up your money but you'd never make any and from day one you'd have problems of personnel but do take an intensive italian course yourself as your fluency will in the long run prove to be your only real passport to your business whatever you decide to do.
Above all don't fret about it too much, just go for it i presume that you're young enough to go thru a tough period ,which you will but it'll be worth it in the long run.
you'll probably find that at least in the begining 2-3 years (?) your wife would probably have to work with you as it would be too much on one's own and it would prove expensive to have other staff right from the start,bear that in mind because it's not easy to be with your wife all day at work then again at home.
anyway just some thoughts.
very best of luck.

Hi Sebastiano,

Thanks for your reply. Very good advice indeed.

My wife will be working with me and will be a partner in the business. We're OK working together. At one point in my life I spent quite a long time unemployed and was at home most days. I think my wife was more fed up with me than I was with her. :winki:

Re. Point 5 in your message. Is it possible to acquire the licence when you buy an existing Bar? What happens when the licence expires and I have to apply for the new one in my own name? Do I just need to do one of these courses/exams run by the Camera di Commercio that you mention in your Point 3 before the licence runs out?

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Geraint.

You've no doubt thought about this, but a little bit of market research in the area you want to live and work in will pay dividends. For example, there's a thriving lunch business in Rome where many office workers only have an hour or so. Then I noticed when I moved to small-town Marche that there were very few bars offering a plate of pasta for lunch. It dawned on me that most people go home to eat, and take a three-hour or so lunch break, returning to work at about 5pm.

One hare-brained idea I had was to set up a small catering service, offering Thai / Vietnamese dishes (which I'm better at cooking than Italian food).No brainer. Very few people around here would even try something that wasn't trad Italian. Maybe it's something you do in increments: a spring roll here, spicy noodles there, hot and sour prawn soup the next week, and so on. Before you knew it, you'd get people in droves for a sneaky "what Mamma doesn't make" snack. I reckon that if you were in a trendy spot in Genova, you could easily do something like that.

Oh, and I second Sebastiano's advice about language schools. If you're not qualified / certified, it would be an uphill struggle for very little profit.

Hi English Teacher,

Thanks. Yes, I've got the market research in hand. Or at least I'm getting my son onto it. He's got a Business Studies degree and a Masters in International Marketing. He's probably forgotten more about market research techniques than I'm ever likely to know. So I'm hoping that - when he has time in his busy schedule - he'll be able to get around to giving his old man a helping hand. I knew that helping them out through Uni would pay dividends one day.:smile:

As for English langauge Schools, - I gave up on that idea a while back. I could probably run one OK in organisational and ideas terms, but I'm not a teacher and have no aptitude for teaching- or any other kind of public speaking for that matter. So I couldn't take on any of the teaching workload.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Geraint

Its worth mentioning that it would be best not to be dependent on a tourist trade market as there continue to be very great worries about tourism in most of Liguria. You could take out a subscription to Il Secoloxix the regional paper and read it online everyday - or you can sample some of the stories without a subscription.

[url=http://ilsecoloxix.ilsole24ore.com/]Il Secolo XIX | Prima pagina del quotidiano online[/url]

It would be best to find an area where the 'regular population' make up most of your customers rather than the elusive tourist. Places can look very empty out of the summer season.

Hi, have you sorted your qualifications out yet? Before coming to Italy I got my qualifications recognised by the Istituto Italiano in London or the Italian Consulate can't remember: It's called "equipollenza". They will explain your qualifications officially and clearly for Italians to understand what you've got!

Try looking at this website:
[url=http://www.fipe.it/fipe/English/index.htm]FIPE - Federazione Italiana Pubblici Esercizi[/url]
this page in particular:
[url=http://www.fipe.it/fipe/Quesiti-fr/aprire-bar.htm_cvt.htm]Come aprire un BAR - FIPE - Federazione Italiana Pubblici Esercizi[/url]
They seem to be the official body on this topic! There's a freephone number and email address you could try...

Me again sorry!
The following is taken from : [url=http://www.ascom.imperia.it/site/5300/default.aspx]Confcommercio della Provincia di Imperia[/url]

Looks like the "course" you were talking about starts in September !

"Corso abilitante somministrazione alimenti e bevande e vendita generi alimentari.

Sono disponibili pochi posti per il corso che inizierà il 15 settembre relativo all’abilitazione alla somministrazione al pubblico di alimenti e bevande (Bar – Ristoranti) e per la vendita di generi alimentari.
Il corso, della durata di 120 ore, si svolgerà nelle ore serali con una durata di 6 settimane.
Le iscrizioni possono essere fatte presso la sede della Confcommercio della provincia di Imperia in Viale Matteotti, 132 oppure presso le sedi qui elencate"

[quote=Cassini;95918]Its worth mentioning that it would be best not to be dependent on a tourist trade market as there continue to be very great worries about tourism in most of Liguria. You could take out a subscription to Il Secoloxix the regional paper and read it online everyday - or you can sample some of the stories without a subscription.

[url=http://ilsecoloxix.ilsole24ore.com/]Il Secolo XIX | Prima pagina del quotidiano online[/url]

It would be best to find an area where the 'regular population' make up most of your customers rather than the elusive tourist. Places can look very empty out of the summer season.[/quote]

Hola,

I'd be interested to know the nature of the very great worries about tourism in Liguria. Look forward to hearing more.

Ciao,

Santiago

Keep reading the regional paper or search past copies online.

Just saw this thread. Haven't read all of it yet, so sorry if repeat what's already been said. The Italians seem very keen on their qualifications. I have registered a business selling wine to the UK and other European countries. I don't make the wine, I don't even directly handle the wine, I just find customers for Italian producers. Still I needed to show qualifications. I explained there were no formal qualifications for this sort of thing in the UK, so they asked for proof of a minimum of 3 years experience in the field. I had to get letters from previous employers, plus translation and official stamp from the magistrates that it's a true translation. I also needed proof that the companies supplying the references really existed and that the person who signed the letter was really the actual person in charge, also with translations. The whole thing cost me weeks in time, inches of shoe leather and a fortune in translators fees phone bills and so on. So be prepared.

[quote=Heiko;96083]Just saw this thread. Haven't read all of it yet, so sorry if repeat what's already been said. The Italians seem very keen on their qualifications. I have registered a business selling wine to the UK and other European countries. I don't make the wine, I don't even directly handle the wine, I just find customers for Italian producers. Still I needed to show qualifications. I explained there were no formal qualifications for this sort of thing in the UK, so they asked for proof of a minimum of 3 years experience in the field. I had to get letters from previous employers, plus translation and official stamp from the magistrates that it's a true translation. I also needed proof that the companies supplying the references really existed and that the person who signed the letter was really the actual person in charge, also with translations. The whole thing cost me weeks in time, inches of shoe leather and a fortune in translators fees phone bills and so on. So be prepared.[/quote]

What is it in the cultural make up of Latin/ Med countries that obstacles have to be put in the way of anyone wanting to exhibit a bit of individuality?

That basically means anyone who decides that there is more to life than the stultifying ambience of the public sector. Far too many people in Spain only aspire to a job (for life) in the public sector. It's the same in France, and Greece has the highest number of public servants per capita of all the EU countries.

A doctor, a lawyer, an architect clearly need qualifications. Someone selling wine does not. If they don't know their wine from a cola the business will fail. But that person presents no hazard whatsoever to the health and wealth of the nation. Could it be that people in these countries like having others take decisions for them? French politicians never fail to laud the merit of public service workers. The direct inference is that they are a superior breed to those in the private, risk taking sector, who pay their salaries!! I know I lived in France and currently live in Spain.

The Town Hall here is stuffed full of incompetents who just happen to be card carrying members of PSOE and are all related to one another. The closest they get to breaking into a sweat is when they place their overfed bodies into designer jeans one size too small.

The curse of Europe is the army of jobsmiths ,technocrats, bureaucrats and just plain prats who are swallowing up the wealth of the private sector but contributing little or nothing to the economic well-being of Europe. Let me give you an example. The number two in the Autonomous Region of Andalucia is just back from a tax payer funded jaunt to Cuba. What did this achieve? The answer is nothing except the opportunity of a photo shoot which appeared in the local press. Spain has a Foreign Secretary so why do they need this political nobody to wrack up yet more costs for the hard pressed taxpayer?. The answer is clear to all except the noddy heads who think anyone in power has to be respected. It's both pathetic and tragic. The money wasted by the administrative establishment throughout Europe is frankly staggering. I

Italy is drowning in a sea of bureaucratic madness. Berlusconi knows this . So why doesn't he do something about it? Maybe he's too busy making toilet level gestures behind a policewomans back!!

As ever, it's the hard pressed small business person with ideas who picks up the tab. Surely the time has arrived for the put upon private sector to say enough is enough. No more jobsmiths. No more ridiculous "Guardian" style jobs. No more duplication of expenses, corruption, incompetence etc!!!!

Nothing better than a good rant on a Friday night :-)

Un abrazo,

Santiago

The reason why so many people in Spain want to join the public service - and I guess that it would also apply to other EU countries - is that this type of job provides security and a reasonable rate of payment. Right now, the main worry for many people is the insecurity of the job market and the failure rate of small business.
As for those unnecessary trips by high ranking officials of the regional autonomies in Spain, it is a sort of contagious disease in which the main symptom is to prove that they are autonomous and independent from central government. I currently live in the Basque Autonomous Region, I am Basque, but I also lived in Andalucia, so I have experienced the problems.
But we are "hijacking" the thread.
Regarding the request for formal qualifications to start any type of business, I am afraid that this is going to happen everywhere and it has to do not only with bureaucracy but also with the fear of failure for those businesses which are not in the hands of qualified people. I understand that this is not a guarantee, particularly in some businesses, but with the large number of consumer affairs advocates, consumers groups etc, being very active, bureaucrats tend to tighten regulations. Perhaps it is a sign of the times.....
As for small business, it has always been the backbone of the economy, in all countries. The only thing is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to start one.

"As for small business, it has always been the backbone of the economy, in all countries. The only thing is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to start one."

Here in the UK in fact it isn't difficult for people to start their own business assuming they have a viable business plan and have or able to acquire the necessary funds. There are plenty of associations that will help you every step of the way both at start up and beyond, Some offer their help for free. Something then for our EU neighbours to take note of.

[quote=Gala Placidia;96098]The reason why so many people in Spain want to join the public service - and I guess that it would also apply to other EU countries - is that this type of job provides security and a reasonable rate of payment. Right now, the main worry for many people is the insecurity of the job market and the failure rate of small business.
As for those unnecessary trips by high ranking officials of the regional autonomies in Spain, it is a sort of contagious disease in which the main symptom is to prove that they are autonomous and independent from central government. I currently live in the Basque Autonomous Region, I am Basque, but I also lived in Andalucia, so I have experienced the problems.
But we are "hijacking" the thread.
Regarding the request for formal qualifications to start any type of business, I am afraid that this is going to happen everywhere and it has to do not only with bureaucracy but also with the fear of failure for those businesses which are not in the hands of qualified people. I understand that this is not a guarantee, particularly in some businesses, but with the large number of consumer affairs advocates, consumers groups etc, being very active, bureaucrats tend to tighten regulations. Perhaps it is a sign of the times.....
As for small business, it has always been the backbone of the economy, in all countries. The only thing is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to start one.[/quote]

Hola Gala,

Let's keep this simple. Why should a bureacrat who has no concept of "risk" and who lives in a "risk free employment environment" dictate the start-up conditions for those who want to get off their backside and create something.

As I said in my original post there are sectors which have to be regulated but someone looking to procure clients for a vineyard does not fall into these categories. It's plain madness. Europe is drowning in a sea of unelected officialdom who bank their salary every month and say " crisis, que crisis?"

Every Spaniard I speak to bemoans the vast waste of our taxes on failed initiatives and duplication. Unfortunately I cannot vote in the general elections here so I have no voice. I don't think we are highjacking the thread as the maze of paperwork involved in starting a business is hugely relevant to anyone looking to start a new life in Italy.

America is full of ambulance chasing lawyers but it doesn't stop their economy advancing. No-one in the States is going to ask you for a "qualification" before you open your corner shop. That's why the States will always be one step ahead of Europe. Right now their economy is in la merde but due to the inherent flexibility
within their economy, and the risk taking nature of many Americans, it will soon be flying high while Europe limps along weighed down by its army of unelected jobsmiths and its "professionalized" political classes who have never paid a salary in their life.

I'm all for starting a new PP in Spain....El Partido Pragmatico :-)!

Santiago

Well Santiago, perhaps the problem in many EU countries, including Italy and Spain, is that we are over-governed and that we have too many public servants trying to justify their positions and hold on to their jobs. So they create a nightmarish bureaucracy to keep them going.
Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of small business and I think that people should receive all available help if they want to become independent. Granted that in some areas, licensing would be necessary, particularly when public health or safety are involved or at risk, but there should be proper assistance as small businesses create wealth and keep the economy going.
You may have the best of intentions and try to start a new political party; however, I am afraid that in the long run you will be fighting an endless battle against the establishment who does not understand pragmatism.
I come from a very long line of politicians, but they belonged to the times when they were not paid for their services and a few of them lost considerable amounts of their private fortunes to pursue their careers. And they did positive things. That kind of politician, who was always rare, does not exist anymore. I would not enter politics for nothing in the world.
I totally agree with you in that the USA is going to get ahead pretty soon. If I had lots of money, I would be buying US dollars at the current rate of exchange as I think that the Euro, particularly if they keep on going with their ridiculous policies is going to lose a lot of its present value.
Anyway, anyone trying to start a small business has my full support, my only word of advice would be to establish a careful business plan.

[quote=santiago;96117]...Europe is drowning in a sea of unelected officialdom who bank their salary every month and say " crisis, que crisis?"... Unfortunately I cannot vote in the general elections here so I have no voice. ...America is full of ambulance chasing lawyers but it doesn't stop their economy advancing. ... Right now their economy is in la merde but due to the inherent flexibility
within their economy, and the risk taking nature of many Americans, it will soon be flying high while Europe limps along weighed down by its army of unelected jobsmiths and its "professionalized" political classes who have never paid a salary in their life....[/quote]Good heavens! America has CAUSED the financial problems that Europe is experiencing by the very nature of their unregulated financial systems! Sell a mortgage to someone that you know will never, in a month of Sundays, be able to repay it - pocket the commission and pass the risk on to a European bank that has subscribed to your belief that all things US are wonderful. You bemoan Europe and the EU for profligacy whilst we are witnessing an American "election" that has so far only "elected" the leaders of the political parties involved at the cost of billions of dollars! It is the same as the UK devoting a year to electing the next leader of the Conservative/Liberal/Labour parties! You talk of the waste of public money when facing that as an "attractive" scenario? My goodness me man - you need to read and understand your history rather better than you have done so far in your life.

Several years ago I proposed a solution to most of the problems that the world faced at the time, in an article for a British newspaper. My proposal was simple - build a wall around the USA (which they actually are in the process of doing in Mexico, by the way). This would enable the US to keep everyone else out of their country - and, more importantly, keep "them" all in.

Anyway, I digress. This discussion really, really shouldn't be taking place here on an Italian-lovers website, should it. My apologies for the outburst. I will now disengage from this particular subject.

Here's a good example from today's regional paper of the review of tourism as an industry in the provincia.
[B]Turismo: tengono Genova
e Spezzino, male il Ponente[/B]
06 settembre 2008

Settembre non è ancora tempo di bilanci per la stagione turistica estiva, spiega l’assessore regionale al Turismo della Liguria, Margherita Bozzano, che annuncia però come l’Osservatorio regionale, abbia già qualche indicazione in chiaroscuro. Crescono lievemente i turisti nelle province di Genova e La Spezia, a “trazione” straniera, diminuiscono a Imperia e Savona, più legate alla presenza di italiani alle prese con una minore capacità di spesa.

Tra i pochi dati positivi, spicca la crescita di Genova, che a luglio avrebbe toccato +11%, dove in questi primi giorni di settembre è ben visibile la presenza di stranieri, soprattutto russi. E proprio questa nuova frontiera conferma una crescita promettente: «Sono in aumento - spiega l’assessore Bozzano - e hanno una grande disponibilità di spesa. In compenso calano gli statunitensi a causa del cambio sfavorevole del dollaro, e ne soffre in particolare il Tigullio, meta tradizionale per gli ospiti americani, che si rifà però con le presenze di europei nei molti alberghi di lusso». A tenere è anche la provincia spezzina, trainata come sempre dalla Cinque Terre: «sia il genovese che lo spezzino riescono ad attrarre turisti tutto l’anno - afferma ancora l’assessore Bozzano - anche perché puntano sugli ospiti stranieri. La nostra politica è indirizzata in quella direzione: allungare la stagione e puntare sul turismo europeo, americano e asiatico».

Per quanto riguarda il Ponente, da Savona a Imperia il calo sembra confermato, anche se giungono segnali contradditori dice l’assessore: «c’è un calo generale dovuto alla minore presenza di italiani, solo in parte bilanciata da una tenuta dei tedeschi - afferma Bozzano - ma da alcuni operatori balneari arrivano notizie positive su luglio e agosto». Il carnet di proposte per allugare la stagione in Liguria è ricco. Dai pacchetti per scoprire i borghi dell’entroterra nei fine settimana, promossi insieme ai comuni che hanno le Bandiere Arancioni, al Salone Nautico e al Festival della Scienza di Genova, che affollano ottobre. L’imperiese punta sulle Vele d’Epoca a settembre e sulla settimana dell’olio d’oliva a novembre. Il Tigullio propone tutto l’inverno le immersioni nella riserva di Portofino, il savonese inaugura altri otto chilometri della spettacolare pista ciclabile e pedonale che corre lungo il mare al posto della vecchia ferrovia.

La denuncia di Federalberghi. In crisi il turismo in Italia. A confermarlo sono i dati allarmanti di Federalberghi: c’è stato un calo del 6%, che tradotto in numeri significa: 12 milioni e 500 mila pernottamenti in meno rispetto al 2007, per una perdita di un miliardo e mezzo di euro. «Credo che non ci sia bisogno di commenti - ha affermato il presidente nazionale, Bernabò Bocca, nell’annunciare il convegno «Turismo, trasporti e ambiente per lo sviluppo economico dell’Italia» in programma al Casinò di Sanremo, il prossimo 26 settembre. - L’unica cosa è rimboccarsi le maniche».

Al convegno del 26, organizzato da Federalberghi nazionale e Confcommercio provinciale di Imperia, parteciperanno: i ministri Claudio Scajola, responsabile delle Attività Produttive e Stefania Prestigiacomo, per Ambiente, Tutela Territorio e Mare; l’onorevole Maria Vittoria Brambilla, sottosegretario alla Presidenza del Consiglio e l’assessore regionale ligure al Turismo, Margherita Bozzano. `La scelta di Sanremo non è casuale - dice Americo Pilati, presidente Federalberghi Liguria - infatti la ´Città dei Fiorì per noi deve diventare la `Cernobbiò del Turismo. Come si discutono ogni anno le strategie dell’economia nel loro complesso noi vorremmo sviscerare le tematiche legate all’ospitalità. Auspico che l’Italia si riappropri del suo ruolo di primadonna nell’ambito dell’industria delle vacanze a livello mondiale.

I think that the figures are reflecting a problem which is not limited to Liguria, or Italy, or Europe, or the world in general. The current crisis is affecting a large number of people who are no longer able to afford not only overseas holidays but also holidays at home.
A 6 % reduction in the number of tourists is not too bad and can only be expected in the current situation. Most people are feeling the pinch.

[quote=Nardini;96121]Good heavens! America has CAUSED the financial problems that Europe is experiencing by the very nature of their unregulated financial systems! Sell a mortgage to someone that you know will never, in a month of Sundays, be able to repay it - pocket the commission and pass the risk on to a European bank that has subscribed to your belief that all things US are wonderful. You bemoan Europe and the EU for profligacy whilst we are witnessing an American "election" that has so far only "elected" the leaders of the political parties involved at the cost of billions of dollars! It is the same as the UK devoting a year to electing the next leader of the Conservative/Liberal/Labour parties! You talk of the waste of public money when facing that as an "attractive" scenario? My goodness me man - you need to read and understand your history rather better than you have done so far in your life.

Several years ago I proposed a solution to most of the problems that the world faced at the time, in an article for a British newspaper. My proposal was simple - build a wall around the USA (which they actually are in the process of doing in Mexico, by the way). This would enable the US to keep everyone else out of their country - and, more importantly, keep "them" all in.

Anyway, I digress. This discussion really, really shouldn't be taking place here on an Italian-lovers website, should it. My apologies for the outburst. I will now disengage from this particular subject.[/quote]

Hola Nardini,

I must remember to swot up on my history. I live in the real world. The facts are that like it or not their is an inherent flexibility in the US economy that will see it ride out the storm better than the sclerotic economies of Old Europe. You mention building a wall around America. Not sure that is a solution for anything.

Gala, you seem like a kindred spirit. I have no intention of entering politics albeit it would be fun to get elected as an MEP with the sole intention of exposing the mind boggling waste in Brussels. But maybe I shouldn't bother. The "highly qualified" Mr Kinnock checked that out for us so we can be sure that everything is in perfect order!!! Who checked his qualifications? Shame our politicians are not subjected to the same controls as our friend looking to sell wine!! Phew, I'm back "on thread".

Santiago

The so-called decline of tourism in western Liguria has nothing to do with recent economic circumstances, whatever your political views. It results from long-term changes in the pattern of opportunity and choice - which make some destinations more and others less attractive to the market. You can see this change in many tourist areas - the dereliction of Morecambe and the seediness of Margate compared to their earlier heydays (sorry, lovers of these places) have nothing to do with American efficiency or profligacy nor with European rigidity or social concern.

Western Ligurian tourism in its own heyday serviced people from Turin, Milan and Genoa who went there by train to a cheap, relatively nearby destination (just as Morecambe serviced Bradford) and stayed in hotels. What the 'decline' figures usually record are changes in the number of overnight stays in paid serviced accommodation and in the number of hotels, and from Arenzano to Bordighera these have been in long term decline. Stories published by [I]Il Secolo XIX[/I] repeatedly draw attention to this, and to the closure of hotels. But these stories are frequently inspired by the hotel industry, and should no more be relied upon for the whole story than one should rely on stories inspired by the farming industry for a view of British agriculture. If you believe the newspapers, British farmers and Ligurian hoteliers alike are always suffering from bad weather affecting their 'crops' and from poor conditions in the market.

But there has been real change - and these changes affect particular sectors including the market for bars which was the OP's original concern. People who stay in hotels are reliant all day on food and drink from hotels, bars and restaurants. Those in the second home and rented self-catering sectors, which are not in decline but still growing (though unrecorded in the statistics usually cited), are much less frequent users of bars and restaurants. They may even bring food and drink with them from Turin or Dusseldorf. Only the bagnos are to an extent protected from this change - and if the weather is good they're still full.

Another change that isn't much publicised in newspapers is growth in the [I]entroterra[/I]. In inland villages the number of hotels and agroturismos continues to increase, utilised by the new car-owning tourist who is uninterested in urban seaside hotels with poor parking and bad traffic. But newspaper stories are generally inspired by the tourist organizations of the big towns - who (as in the story quoted by Cassini) sometimes seem to dream of a new captive market like the Russians who will come in by public transport and be forced to eat and drink in their hotels and in a confined neighbourhood.

It won't happen. Like the Torinese, who in the four or five hours it takes to get from Turin to San Remo by train (and not that much less by car) can now go to most of Europe and parts of Africa and Asia, the Russian too will have increasing opportunity and choice.

We have noticed, over the past few years, a steady decline in the maintenance of tourist amenities in Imperia, particularly San Remo, and if you neglect the condition of the buildings there is a strong reason behind this. Thank you again for clarifying it Bosco.

[quote=bosco;96167]The so-called decline of tourism in western Liguria has nothing to do with recent economic circumstances, whatever your political views. It results from long-term changes in the pattern of opportunity and choice - which make some destinations more and others less attractive to the market. You can see this change in many tourist areas - the dereliction of Morecambe and the seediness of Margate compared to their earlier heydays (sorry, lovers of these places) have nothing to do with American efficiency or profligacy nor with European rigidity or social concern.

Western Ligurian tourism in its own heyday serviced people from Turin, Milan and Genoa who went there by train to a cheap, relatively nearby destination (just as Morecambe serviced Bradford) and stayed in hotels. What the 'decline' figures usually record are changes in the number of overnight stays in paid serviced accommodation and in the number of hotels, and from Arenzano to Bordighera these have been in long term decline. Stories published by [I]Il Secolo XIX[/I] repeatedly draw attention to this, and to the closure of hotels. But these stories are frequently inspired by the hotel industry, and should no more be relied upon for the whole story than one should rely on stories inspired by the farming industry for a view of British agriculture. If you believe the newspapers, British farmers and Ligurian hoteliers alike are always suffering from bad weather affecting their 'crops' and from poor conditions in the market.

But there has been real change - and these changes affect particular sectors including the market for bars which was the OP's original concern. People who stay in hotels are reliant all day on food and drink from hotels, bars and restaurants. Those in the second home and rented self-catering sectors, which are not in decline but still growing (though unrecorded in the statistics usually cited), are much less frequent users of bars and restaurants. They may even bring food and drink with them from Turin or Dusseldorf. Only the bagnos are to an extent protected from this change - and if the weather is good they're still full.

Another change that isn't much publicised in newspapers is growth in the [I]entroterra[/I]. In inland villages the number of hotels and agroturismos continues to increase, utilised by the new car-owning tourist who is uninterested in urban seaside hotels with poor parking and bad traffic. But newspaper stories are generally inspired by the tourist organizations of the big towns - who (as in the story quoted by Cassini) sometimes seem to dream of a new captive market like the Russians who will come in by public transport and be forced to eat and drink in their hotels and in a confined neighbourhood.

It won't happen. Like the Torinese, who in the four or five hours it takes to get from Turin to San Remo by train (and not that much less by car) can now go to most of Europe and parts of Africa and Asia, the Russian too will have increasing opportunity and choice.[/quote]

very good comment Bosco.I agree entirely.
Interesting that this same phenomenum is not limited to western liguria but can be found in many places along the various Italian coasts.For example here on the Marche coast in the area of San Benedetto/Grottamare you can witness the closure or conversion of many hotels into residences ie apartment buildings as the model of tourism which many of these towns represent is a 50's-60's kind where large numbers of Italian tourists used to stay for even up to 3/4 weeks at a time in a regime of "pensione completo" (full board).Changing economic,social conditions,,more work less hols less money has definitely put this kind of tourism into crisis as people stay,nowadays,for a few days at a time,come and go and has lead to a commuting local tourism (full from friday to sunday...empty from monday on)Unfortunately many of these "operatori turistici" are still unable to read the writing on the wall and,as in liguria,believe it's to do with the weather, or some transient economic depression etc.So having successfully destroyed thousands of kms of coastline with a pot pourie of improbable nightmarish "architecture",booths,chalets ,and anything else you want to add have
started to discover that for a few hundred euro you can go to north africa,southern egypt or lots of other places quicker,better and cheaper.......yes, it is depressing!