10309 A Note of Caution villa rentals in marche

[QUOTE=villa sibillini;95837].........italian tax experts - there is Blevins Franks in the UK and Michael (don't remember his surname) who writes on this forum sometimes...............[QUOTE]

I think its "Michael J Murphy ACA"

Thanks, you are absolutely right, it's Michael Murphy!

The Inland Revenue have a dedicated team checking the internet letting sites. I also know from a contact in the Dordogne that the French Revenue caught some Brits last year by checking the English language rental sites, and the Spanish are now in on the act as well. I have a BnB in Andalucia. You have been warned. Be legal and sleep peacefully.

Ciao,

James

Who tipped you off?.

This must be part of the drive by the Guardia di Finanzia that has been discussed in the papers Il resto di Carlino and others since Spring this year, they have a team investigating all working on the black in the region.

We are signed off as a Casa or apartamento in affito and Personally I feel that whilst it's fairer if everyone is subject to the same demands, unfortunately with legality comes beurocracy and controls that may affect a villa 's financial viability and an owners ability to offer the same number of rooms as before (all double rooms must now b 12m2), and in the case of swimming pools and the max 1.4m depth rule it may negate opening at all (as the cost of a bagnino is more than the extra earnings from the pool).

[quote=villa sibillini;95837]We have just been tipped off that the finance police in le marche are following the lead of those in tuscany, by checking villa rental sites and availability charts to see which owners are working and their prices. Following the investigation, owners may be tracked down and fined according to their adverts.

Anyone running legally with accounts need not worry, but if not, it's a good idea to get advice from either uk or italian tax experts - there is Blevins Franks in the UK and Michael (don't remember his surname) who writes on this forum sometimes. We were also told by our accountant to ensure that our business name and IVA number is displayed on our web site.[/quote]
Yes,Pam it's true. at the Agenzia delle Entrate they told me they are even checking "foreign" and ".com" sites which can more easily be missed if checking only regular national ".it" sites.i do wonder a bit if they'll be able to read all they find but it seems that they are turning up at people's doors...

[quote=Sebastiano;95881]Yes,Pam it's true. at the Agenzia delle Entrate they told me they are even checking "foreign" and ".com" sites which can more easily be missed if checking only regular national ".it" sites.i do wonder a bit if they'll be able to read all they find but it seems that they are turning up at people's doors...[/quote]
One of the biggest risks in villa rentals can derive from the amount of time it can be rented if i'm not mistaken the laws allow without particular problems rentals up to 60 days per annum beyond which it could be considered a full business with all that that entails.
forgot to add that any eventual evasion or allusion of taxes is only the tip of the iceberg because if they happened to turn up at say a changeover with an uninsured worker present or a gardener working for cash that could create worse situations and as Damien says even stuff like the depth of the pool could be put under scrutiny.Unlike in the past the various "agencies" are now "talking " to each other so say for example a finance control thru the guardia di finanza or the agenzia delle entrate can easily lead to another control by the work inspectorate or INPS .food ,if served can also become the start of difficult situations if the premesis is not officially licenced to serve food,drinks etc and could lead to A.S.L inspections.

We did a lot of research before we opened with regard to what was necessary for the country house license and AUSL - we actually called the right people in so that we could build in all the requirements. However, the worst thing we did was to take advice from an italian accountant - to become a limited company (srl), which of course, we now know was far too heavy for such a small business, and its taken lots of time and money to extracate ourselves. AUSL were really helpful though and well worth the time spent with them.

I take your point about red tape and making it difficult to run a business, but if we were all in the uk, we would still have to pay taxes, and several of our friends with rental villas do use a uk accountant and take the money in the uk - I understand that you can claim more items with a uk accountant and there is a treaty with Italy to avoid double taxation.

I think sometimes we expect to come here and disregard the laws that are more heavily enforced in the uk, especially to do with health and safety or health and hygeine. We had to undertake a 60 hour course just prior to opening and have just done the refresher this year.

Whatever business, in whatever country you go to, you need to do your research, and stay within the laws or face the penalites. Unfortunately here, they won't make allowances for not understanding the language or burocracy. This is no different to the uk.....

Hola Villa Sibillini. You refer to a "Country House Licence". Is this different from opening an affitacamere? I am having a look at Piemonte .Also, I know that affitacamere are only permitted to serve industrially processed food which kind of flies in the face of the logic of offering a personalized BnB service with home made produce. Do they check on this?

Ciao,

James

Yep, it's completely different to b and b, agriturismo and affitacamere. We offer b and b, but also have a restaurant - not quite large enough to be designated as a hotel, but have everything else just like a small hotel. The course we had to do for the food and drink license we 'Somministrazione Alimenti e Bevande' and cover health and hygeine, employment law, health and safety and taxes.

We also had to comply with using wood for new windows and doors, and all sorts of other strange requirements, don't remember them all now, and sizes of rooms, bathrooms and the pool. Lucky for us we have Italian friends, some of whom worked for Regione Marche, so they translated everything for us and liaised with our geometra.

Anyone working with food and drink needs to do this - otherwise packaged food it is!

not just the marche... its very much a nationwide exercise... one thing here in Italy is that they have very good control of communications and investigate widely through that avenue.... and they have a massive staff to do it with...

the laws regarding the bottom line of your website and identify yourself via your chamber of commerce registration number and vat number and registered business name have been in place a long time...

i think its not an unhappy event by any means as it makes competing with those not spending the time or the money on following the correct procedures here slightly more fair... have heard several comments about how many English in Abruzzo are doing building works, including plumbing electrics etc.... without being registered ... so its a pretty widespread search.....

it was an attempt by the last government to control...you will never stop it completely.... the vast amount of unpaid tax and somehow to level up Ital and its accounts to comply with EU levels.... obviously as its in place and Berlusconi struggles to balance books i would say it will be a continuing long term exercise....

[quote=adriatica;95895] and they have a massive staff to do it with... ...[/quote]Soon to be suplemented with an additional 5-7,000 ex-Alitalia "workers"...:winki:

To divert a little ...there is apparently a new law as from 1 September controlling swimming pools? swimmingpool safety in places where "guests" swim? Anyone got any details of this?

I have the laws for Le Marche region passed in July 2007 that we were asked to comply with and am happy to send these to anyone who PMs me; I have not been informed of any changes to these but would have thought that if there had been a change then there must be an obligation on the region to inform pool owners that they have approved if they feel that we should comply. The main rules are a max average depth of 1.4m that is clearly marked, the necessity of a shower, a footbath and a perimeter fence with only one entrance. Once signed off you must record all PH and chlorine readings and document the chemicals added.

[QUOTE=villa sibillini;95837]We have just been tipped off that the finance police in le marche are following the lead of those in tuscany, by checking villa rental sites and availability charts to see which owners are working and their prices. Following the investigation, owners may be tracked down and fined according to their adverts.

Anyone running legally with accounts need not worry, but if not, it's a good idea to get advice from either uk or italian tax experts - there is Blevins Franks in the UK and Michael (don't remember his surname) who writes on this forum sometimes. We were also told by our accountant to ensure that our business name and IVA number is displayed on our web site.[/QUOTE

We were actually tipped off before the summer that the finance police would be checking up on any rental properties that are not legal like they have in Spain & Tuscany, and I would have thought that most people would have been aware of this with all the gossip that circulates around here.
We got an Italian accountant as soon as we bought our property and took all the advise on paying tax, opening up a bank account, getting a morgage and more important than anything is getting the health & saftey out to check out the property.
It did cost us a lot of money to do the courses for the health & hygiene, change bathrooms, put in disabled toilets etc to get our certification to open but at the end of the day we do not have the worry about getting fined and can therefore sleep well at night. We always paid taxes in the UK why should it be different anywere else for people running a buisiness, all the Italians that I know pay taxes and are very fed up with all the people who do not! People must also remember to
ask the local commune about paying council tax as I have heard that often they never get a bill and unfortunately when they do even 5 years down the line that can have a huge fine attatched to it.
We were also informed by the accountant that all our Codice fiscali & Partita IVA
must now go on all our receipts as well as our websites.

Christine & Peter
Shambala

picked up a copy of our local business paper the other day "piazza Affari" which copies national articles on things they think are relative to this province and people running businesses here, one article that is relevant to this discussion was taken from Fisco Oggi ... a tax site ...

have put a link in place to the relevant article below... which is assuring us that the comunes who are due to hold their national get together have invited the agenzia delle entarta along to see ways that they can collaborate in getting to grips with the tax evasion problem...

the comunes hold a lot of relevant data on us all... generally when we do things we apply for permission with them...ie.. extensions,renovations,pools,gas boiler inspections, and so on and so forth... so they have a record of how much money we are spending... useful for the entrata people to know...and strangely enough not an avenue pursued in the past...

however with the Prodi finance law plans were put in place to make what you might call a joined up system of control... and the comunes being part of a large knowledge base of our spending are about to join in... essentially the reason being that with the squeeze on public spending,the abolition of ICI and the worries over where their next penny or cent is about to come from it makes sense for them to have declarations of earnings more accurate as part of the tax we pay actually goes straight to them... even more so in the future as the proposed changes here regarding federalism are going to make local areas much more dependant on local collected taxs...

so even if not taking the current series of posts here seriously and believing that one can get away with letting properties without tax consequences here...or working for "acquaintances" i would reason that this is going to become more and more difficult....as locals become more involved in reporting activities... ie .. gossip about that person having lots of work done, or visitors every week... the local builders merchant wondering why so and so seems to always be buying more and more materials when their house is already completed...is going to end up back at the local comune... and they are going to have ties with the tax people...after that its a simple thing via the code fiscale to control just about everything....

its all going to arrive slowly... but surely... italy has learnt that it cannot carry on taxing the population that does pay tax at a level to compensate for those that avoid... indeed the Italian tax payer is being programmed into resenting this ...which used to be regarded as a sort of justified sport... now they view their contributions at one of the highest levels in europe because so many people avoid paying tax... as a significant burden and are being put into the mind frame that they should help the tax people to put a stop to it....

a new mindset...which is also being thrust onto public administration workers..... their attendance records being checked and performance levels to ascertain if they should just be sacked or warned... pay rises dependant on efficiency ... hence helping increase revenue for the greater good resulting in increased points regarding their own salaries...

like i say joined up thinking ... fines and confiscations being reasoned not to work... now incentives are being given a try and they are using the local knowledge base to kick start it all...

[url=http://www.fiscooggi.it/reader/?MIval=cw_usr_view_articoloN&articolo=31364&giornale=31358]Notiziario Fiscale dell'Agenzia delle Entrate[/url]

that's the article and i would say that its worth if not in the past at least now carefully thinking about what you do here and how... and maybe sorting out things as the previous poster in this thread did... the consequences for working or running a business illegally here carry risks which to my mind seem beyond the gain... these people register fines against what you own... and if not paid because of lack of funds they come and collect first the contents and if that doesn't clear it then the home....

[quote=Noble;95902]To divert a little ...there is apparently a new law as from 1 September controlling swimming pools? swimmingpool safety in places where "guests" swim? Anyone got any details of this?[/quote]
I too would like information on this, and also how it would, could, or should be applied retrospectively to existing pools.

I did put this in another place on the forum, but just want to make sure anyone that needs to know, here is what we were told a year or more ago - which has recently been repeated.

"Hi All, we were told over a year ago, by our Italian accountant, that a large group of Italian owners of rental properties and bed & breakfasts had formed a society and had made an official complaint to the authorities (finance police, carabinieri & AUSL).

Luckily we have been registered since we came and pay taxes, fill in the visitor info for the carabinieri and of course have regular visits from AUSL. His warning was serious, that an investigation had been started but would take some time, and he advised us to let any friends with rentals know that they should take steps to become 'legal'.

It isn't easy to find the right advice if you intend to run your rental as a legally operated business, as you need several different sources - ie the commune for the local regulations (which will of course be in Italian), the AUSL (who cover dimensions of rooms, health and hygeine, health and safety) and then you'll need either and italian accountant or a UK tax specialist such as blevins franks. Once all of this is in place you will need the book that covers all info on your guests - full names, passport number, dates of birth etc. - these should be lodged with the carabinieri within 48 hours of their arrival."

Good luck with all of it, let me know if I can help - see Damiano's post on some other bits in the tax thread

I'm not surprised tax payers are in revolt espcailly as so many self-employed people are avoiding tax. Its so common to be asked if you want an invoice and if you don't you don't pay the tax! I normally have to pay in cash as my bank acount doesnt have a cc card/cheque book so I'm forever chasing up invoices and reciepts.

I wonder if the rgulations controlling small b&bs will change so that owners can offer their own home -cooked produce?

Also some very old buildings may not be able to be converted to allow disabled visitors etc.And what about eco-tourism? We have quite a few sites in Cornwall that have yurts with no electrcity,solar powered showers and compost toilets outside! Would that sort of enterprise ever be allowed in Italy?

...and then in Umbria you must also complete the ISTAT forms (National Tourism Statistics) every month, if you have guests in that month and post it to the assigned Comune office. If no guests an email must be sent to same office to confirm this.

In Umbria it does seem the simplest way is to take the "renting a room" route eg. affitta camera.
You wil pay extra rubbish tax for the square metres rented to guests but are hardly likely to need AUSL as no food preparation on your part is involved.

I find taking the guest registration slip to the Carabinieri is a bind as it takes over 30 mins there and back and the office hours vary. They just seem to stick it in a huge pile.(I noted that in Sicily our B&B just faxed the details to them). There's a bit of simple documentation a couple of times a year but all in all the "rent a room"...or 3 is simpler.

We have been reprimanded on several occasions for being late with the book for the caribinieri - but we explain that there are only two of us, and many times there is no one at the office. It's a 7 minute to drive to town, only to find no one - they have told us to call beforehand, but it's just not possible to arrive early evening for us as we are usually looking after guests and preparing for dinners.

Last week other colleagues with a country house were told that if they were late (after 48 hours) they could be fined 250 euros. It would be more helpful for us to be able to email.... maybe in another 5 years???

We are also required to complete the forms for tourism, which can be handed in at our tourist office - when its open!