10350 Renovation nightmare

[quote=edcro;96232]I have been paying a geometra/project manger for several months now for a renovation to an apartment. I have paid 95% of the fee to the builder. [/quote]

That's where your problem starts.That is way too much.

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, but I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding your post. Do you mean to say that you have paid the builder 'up front' 95% of the contract sum (in other words the cost of building the apartment)? I hope not.

And, you have engaged a 'project manager' who is managing the project as 'a favour'? I hope not.

As for the builder having to pay '40%' on declared income (in other words money transferred through banking channels) that is the only bit of your post which rings true. That is because it is true.

I do hope I have completely misunderstood what you are saying and that you are not the completely thicko Brit which has come across on first reading!

It is difficult to understand how you ended up in this mess. You should have been given a full estimate before signing a contract and payments should have been according to certificates of completion signed by the geometra/project manager. What do you have in writing from both him and the builder? Anyway, to pay 95% of costs before works are completed is just too much. What about the retention sum against defects?
And a word of warning to anyone involved in renovations: be very careful, deal with professionals and clarify whether all sums include IVA.

for you Charles you need to read between the lines and pick out the sarcasim, the answer is no I havent paid up front I have paid in instalments and i have a full written quote that states IVA is at 10% if you dont read slowly and carefuly you end up looking like the thick brit. Thank you for the reply that tells me that the 40% is correct thats all that was required. Althoug I find that rather strange that cost or any tax is not passed onto the customer

Without knowing what, exactly, you negotiated in the first place - including how much of the fee you agreed to pay in cash (or in an envelope) - it is very hard to see where you are going with this. If you have paid 95% of the agreed price, in the agreed way - then you need to find yourself a lawyer - pronto! If not, then what, exactly, is the problem? Stage payments are stage payments, after all -no matter what country you are in.If you agreed at the outset to pay part of the bill to the builders in cash - what went wrong? I have to say that I understand entirely where Charles is coming from on this. Back to you...

Well Nardini when you are placing your trust in someone and you have written quotes and IVA stated at 10% and the only verbal agreement to pay ammounts in brown envelopes is what you are allowed to draw out when it italy and the point of having a project manager is so that you dont have to keep taking time off work and and making one day trips to pay over sums of cash. After all I benefit from that system because I pay lesss in IVA. And the payments by warrant were never queried at the onsett. Without going into all the boring details when I pointed out untruths to the project manager he stopped communicating. And I find it hard to believe that the builder is paying 40% without passing that cost on to me. This has never been mentioned until now and if it was such an integral part of the deal you would have thought that it would have been

The builder is paying 40% income tax. Of course he will have priced this in to the contract sum, but if you are getting a shifty discount by paying cash and reducing your liability to IVA, then he is going to want a bit of quid pro quo. That's the way it works. Unfortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) the Italian government (Prodi's lot) made all of these marginally 'under the counter' deals a lot more difficult to physically manage - and couple this with international anti money laundering compliances, it isn't surprising that non-Italians lose the plot.

Carrying brown envelopes (now you know why there is a €500 note - the highest denomination note in the world) still happens a lot. Until cash gets 'banned' universally, (which is where we are headed) you can still minimise your IVA liability and the builder can pay a bit less tax than he should, but only if you play by the mis-rules.

Edcro, I think that you need proper legal advice. I can't see how you are going to be able to overcome your difficulties otherwise, as the other party is refusing to communicate with you. Perhaps just a letter from a lawyer is going to force them to cooperate.

Being in the building trade myself ,I can tell you the brown envelope is king and probably more so in Italy. On a personal note buying and renovating in Italy was probably the most difficult thing I have undertaken to date (more hassle than arranging my wedding in Italy) But that said it is also one of the most rewarding as im sure you will all agree !
But by the sounds of it this little problem needs nipping in the bud before it gets blown out of proportion and you lose a shed load of money. we are currently on our second renovation at the mo, we have got our own sort of rules regarding the builders and payment. Upon getting our written quotation from which ever workmen we choose, I will agree the price what is included and what the rate of IVA is get it signed and then we get down to talking brown envelopes. As a rule if you were to split the bill down the middle and pay IVA on half with a final reciept showing half the cost everybody is a winner. Prodi gets his bit, the Builders get a bit more in there hand and you save a decent bit whilst still getting the same work as you would have before.
As far as the paying bit goes you cant deny any tradesman a living and obviously he needs to buy materials, pay staff,put fuel in his van etc so 30/40% of the total is sufficent to keep him motivated and on side. There after I administer further cash as and when I feel it is needed or if the builder requests so long as it is within reason. Allways remembering to keep at least 15% back until the work is completed to your satisfaction. I would say this is a pretty straight up account of how it should work, and not meaning to be condisending to anybody has worked perfectly for me, I havnt needed a Geometre or Agent to date, just a few extra trips every now and then( but there can never be to many of them) and some E-mails to make sure things are moving at a reasonable pace
Anyway I think I have bored everybody enough now, so goodnight and good luck!

Ed you've been dealt with a bit harshly! We've been in a very similar situation and I have since tried to encourage people not to use the same agency recommednded geometra to manage the rennovation-sometimes falling on deaf ears!You have my sympathy.

If a builder is paying income tax that's 40% but he will have included such costs in his original preventivo -ours did its absurd trying to add it on to an invoice!

If you pay cash you don't pay IVA but that's only 10% so I'd rather pay it and have a proper contract / invoice then you can denouce him to Guardia Fidanzia if he's taking payments in brown envelopes!! Do the Geometra at the same time!!

If I may interject another note of caution here. The law in Italy is very different to the law in England, insofar as it is not as easy (or as cheap) to sue anyone that owes money. Fair enough to "denounce" the builder and the project manager to the [URL="http://www.gdf.it/Home/"]Guardia di Finanza[/URL] (not always in fiducia!) - but you may very well be disappointed by the response. It is far, far better to have a chat with a lawyer BEFORE trying any DIY measures, as they will then get to hear the full story from you before proffering advice - which you seem to need at the moment.

Nardini is right re the need to be cautious, often here it is better to keep ones head down and gather information before doing anything rash.And from experience getting money back from elusive traders/builders/plumbers, is a long and expensive road, with no sure conclusion, so advice is needed, well before you start on that route.
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