10401 Forget Google!!!

I'm tempted to quote your "Forget Google" as evidence Sally. :bigergrin:

This is more like it - no matter how small a contribution - it's personal and what we have been campaigning for - like real ale for the boys. :laughs:

I spent a wonderful day with friends at Capestrano and we ate in the restaurant, which is next to the spring. In fact if you order water they just lean out of the window and fill the jug straight from the spring as it bubbles up from the rocks.

The food was spectacular and one of our party had the trout, which she said was sublime.

In the main square, at the opposite end to the Castle there is a house, which still has writing on the wall from the Mussolini era.

I’ll see if I can find the photos I took.

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Here you go!

The first two are views from the top of the castle, the third one is of the house with the writing on the wall and the last is a view of the river by the restaurant.

Google tells me that the Last Supper is Byzantine and dates to around 1100. If I've got the right place, (i.e the oratory rather than the monastery proper) there's also a "magic square" carving.

We have found that the internet, at least in our area, is a poor source for information on the local scene. The Italians do not yet use the web as a source of advertising what they have or dispersing information. If an attraction, business or government agency does have a site many times they are outdated, static and lacking in useful information. It can be frustrating trying to find information on the web.

Nothing to do with Capestrano, but a funny story about Google! Google's automation bumped a 6 year old business story up to 'most read', which sparked off 'news alerts', which started a run on a blue-chip share. (Not really surprising - we have had enough posts on this board based on stuff trawled up from historic articles).

[url=http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4742147.ece]Probe into how Google mix-up caused $1 billion run on United - Times Online[/url]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]"The errors provide a salutary lesson for investors of the power and perils of computer automation and throw a spotlight on Google’s News search technology which, using “Googlebot” algorithms, scours web pages in search of news articles.

To many, the episode has been a reminder that computer programs, no matter how sophisticated, can be a poor substitute for human beings."[/COLOR]

What is often overlooked is the fact that the search algorithms that Google (and all of the other search engines) use is written by humans - humans that have opinions as well as technical ability. Such is the nature of humanity that we will always try to "slant" the perception of "news" toward our own viewpoint - our own lifestyle.

We know (or we should know) that when we read a newspaper, the stories in that paper will reflect the political or social views of the editor/proprietor. That is something we accept - enjoy, even as it gives us a sense of "belonging" to that particular "club".

Somehow, we think that Google, Yahoo, MSN, etc will provide us with an objective view of the world without either political or nationalistic flavouring. I think the likelihood of that is the same as expecting The Telegraph to present the values of the Communist Party as valuable and wonderful.

I always feel a little sad when people present snippets of information without using their brains to "sift" it first. The internet can present a great opportunity to develop ones awareness of the world, but it can just as easily act as the greatest "dumbing down" factor known to man (or woman) when some of the nonsense or outdated "facts" are presented as though spouted by the Oracle as well as a terrific opportunity to mislead (thank you Mr Politician).

I am now so so sorry that I gave this thread its current title. You have now all gone down the road of discussing Google which is not what I was after and is boring. What a pity.

these algorthms have absolutely no sentience, bias or even awareness of the text that they are processing, regardless of the pursuasions of their programmers. They simply trawl for content, index it and attempt to classify it by age (amongst other things) for use in news/alerts.

Any blame in the story above rests squarely with the supposed analysts at the florida Investment firm who "posted a summary" of the (non) story to bloomberg. "summary" implies that a HUMAN did indeed scan and process the story, but failed to spot all the various pointers to its actual provenance which, as reorted, should have made the mistake obvious to a human. Don't blame google or computers for providing the tools, output from which dumb@ss humans then misinterpret.

Google news in fact tries very conscienciously to offer a wide variety of "takes" on any article it features when you visit the news homepage (the "headline" article is shown, with a prominent link to all other press coverage of the same item, making Google itself broadly agnostic and making it asy for those so inclined to see multiple perspectives). Google alerts are a filtered version of the indexed news, set to your own requirements, so its "garbage in, garbage out" if you either don't like or misunderstand the alerts that it serves up.

Those whose knee jerk reaction is to blame Google et al for everything - now that "do no evil" is the slogan of one ofthe biggest corporate brands in the world, rather than that of some idealistic, geeky college dropouts - should realise that its a free, optional service (didn't someone round here once say "my advice is free and comes with a money back guarantee"?). The below is from Google news re. its personalsation of content:

[COLOR="Red"]Google News is a computer-generated news site that aggregates headlines from more than 4,500 English-language news sources worldwide, groups similar stories together and displays them according to each reader's personalised interests.

Traditionally, news readers first pick a publication and then look for headlines that interest them. We do things a little differently, with the goal of offering our readers more personalised options and a wider variety of perspectives from which to choose. On Google News we offer links to several articles on every story, so you can first decide what subject interests you and then select which publishers’ accounts of each story you’d like to read. Click on the headline that interests you and you'll go directly to the site which published that story.

Our articles are selected and ranked by computers that evaluate, among other things, how often and on what sites a story appears online. As a result, stories are sorted without regard to political viewpoint or ideology and you can choose from a wide variety of perspectives on any given story. [/COLOR]

Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

If there is something I want to find out, I do an Internet search, most of the time I can find the information I need but if I can’t I may well ask a forum for help. If a forum member is able to find a link to the information where I could not, then that is great, but most often if I can’t find it myself, it means it is not there. This is where the real value of a forum takes over, I hope that amongst the members there may be someone who has actually got the information I need from personal experience.

I also use the forums to share experiences and to learn from others.

I find it particularly futile to come to a forum and find it stuffed with posts, which are just links to virtually anything with a tenuous connection to Italy and where these links are offered for no other reason than an uncontrollable desire to post..something….anything!

Of course if something is posted with a link and an observation or comment, then that is a totally different situation.

I have ANSA news bookmarked and keep up with what is happening so it is disappointing, having already read something to come here and find the same stuff regurgitated and with no further personal contribution.

One other thing that I find off putting is where because a member has no personal knowledge or experience of a subject, rather than just making no contribution they find some spurious link and post it without having even read it first.

I do feel that there is an obligation to check facts before posting and although it is still very easy to get things wrong, there is no shame in admitting a mistake.

I know absolutely nothing about renovations, so I don’t post there because I have no useful contribution to make, but I suppose I could trawl up some guff about stud walls or some such and post it, but why bother?

Of course these are my opinions and I know there are others who will not share them, indeed I also know that if I posted that I thought it might get dark before tomorrow morning, there would be someone who would disagree with me…but at least it is human interaction.

OK rant over and soapbox stored neatly ready for next time.:tongue:

NB This is not an attack, veiled or otherwise on any member/s, just my personal opinion.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96778]I am now so so sorry that I gave this thread its current title. You have now all gone down the road of discussing Google which is not what I was after and is boring. What a pity.[/quote]So, Sally, tell us what it was that you wished to discuss? Then tell us why you did not introduce the topic you wished to discuss in an intelligent, thought-provoking way? This really isn't playschool, where you just have to show us a shiny toy to get everyone to gurgle with delight. Please, Sally, engage in some sort of conversation - preferably about Italy. You can then thrill us with your intellect, rather than present yourself as merely the village idiot - which I know you are not. C'mon Sally - tell us about your house - your trials and tribulations when you bought it - your best experiences that would help or benefit someone else to know of. You know the sort of thing, I'm sure.
[quote=pigro]these algorthms have absolutely no sentience, bias or even awareness of the text that they are processing, regardless of the pursuasions of their programmers. They simply trawl for content, index it and attempt to classify it by age (amongst other things) for use in news/alerts.[/quote]
And, Pigro. If you really believe that a computer programmer has no impact on how his programme runs, I would be as surprised as I was before. Do I need to remind you of the power of a "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb"]Google Bomb[/URL]" to show how the information indexes on something like Google can be so easily manipulated and therefore wholly unreliable without alternative references? Of course, Google have been made aware of these particular kind of "pranks" and have [URL="http://searchengineland.com/070125-230048.php"]added more filters[/URL] to their search algorithms to prevent (or reduce the chances of) this kind of manipulation again - although spammers are very good at manipulating these search engines for their own needs. It is interesting to see that Google are still claiming that the filters added to their search algorithm is "without any human intervention". God or C3PO?

I reiterate Nardini please put me on your Ignore List. Ah just seen you grazied my initial post ...... weird uturn.

"The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sally Donaldson For This Useful Post:
AllanMason (Yesterday), Gala Placidia (Yesterday), juliancoll (Yesterday), Nardini (Yesterday), Val (Yesterday)
"

I suppose when you consider how many people search the internet via Google, then you would expect there to be loads of outdated items. This article itself describes what can happen if you believe everything that you read online.
[url=http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4742147.ece]Probe into how Google mix-up caused $1 billion run on United - Times Online[/url]

Back to Capestrano!

If that rivers the cleanest in Italy its no recommendation judging by the state of most of the rivers in Abruzzo! What colour are the people who drunk from it ?Are they glowing in the dark yet??

We noticed the fascist slogans too and found capestrano to be a really interesting town to visit walk around.I remember we were enjoying a Campari and Soda at a little bar near the castle.I couldn't believe how many expensive sports cars there were parked around the square.So is it the capitol of Abruzzese Mafia or what??:wideeyed:

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96795]
I reiterate Nardini please put me on your Ignore List. Ah just seen you grazied my initial post ...... weird uturn.

"The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sally Donaldson For This Useful Post:
AllanMason (Yesterday), Gala Placidia (Yesterday), juliancoll (Yesterday), Nardini (Yesterday), Val (Yesterday)
"[/quote]

Sally, I understand you're disapointed that this thread has not taken the path you sought - and I understand exactly what you were trying to do, but please don't allow a "Google" thread title and the "off topic" discussion to put you off simply because you didn't get your wish. There is no reason to get upset by Nardinis harsh words (sorry Nardini they were harsh) I'm sure they were meant with the best of intentions - we are all living in this Digital City and you are part of the community - you shluld not feel like an outsider again because you were hurt and felt that because you could not control the thread path that people here were directing comments towards you personally.

I thought you made a brave (and very welcome) attempt to share personal experience by starting this thread - so what if it went wrong - just start over and open a new thread - don't allow it to turn you bitter once again by seeing only the negative - look at how many others have grazied your post - they "got it" - we all got it. :smile:

Start a thread about the place were you bought your house - how you found it - why you decided you wanted to renovate - what obstacles you faced along the way - or any other subject you want - drop a few photos in the posts if you have some so we can ask questions, make comments on it all - and maybe even keep it on topic for you.
We all win that way. :yes:

Many thanks Becky. I have suggested to Marc that this thread be split. Any little secrets you might care to divulge??? Capestrano is just a throw in the ocean as it were!!!

[quote=Nardini;96794]And, Pigro. If you really believe that a computer programmer has no impact on how his programme runs, I would be as surprised as I was before. Do I need to remind you of the power of a "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb"]Google Bomb[/URL]" to show how the information indexes on something like Google can be so easily manipulated and therefore wholly unreliable without alternative references?[/quote]
no, you don't need to remind me of anything thanks very much, and I didn't in any case make the ridiculous statement "that a computer programmer has no impact on how his programme runs" that you ascribe to me. I said that the algorithm has no role in [B]interpreting[/B] the data it processes. An 'algorithm' is simply a programatic solution to a logical problem or task. The task in question is to find, scan and index text, there is no attempt by any search engine algorithm to [B]parse[/B] it - either syntactically or to try and divine the politics or motives of its author. The human who programmed the algorithm did not slant the perception of the text documents that his algorithm indexed - because the algorithm is automated and HAS no perception.

Google search results can clearly be manipulated (I never said otherwise) but that is a 3rd party human modifying the data on which the algorithm works - nothing to do with the programmer of the algorithm. Unless you're suggesting, for example, that typing 'who should I vote for' into Google returns only Democratic favourable links due to some hard coded rule within the algorithm? If so, I advise that you google for 'paranoia treatment'.

In short you are confusing the notion of bias caused by specific statements consciously embedded in a program, with external manipulation of the data on which that program acts.

Once again please Pigro - in English - or even Italian. :bigergrin:

Julian and Nardin

Let me give you a bit of advice, and this is not meant as a criticism of Sally, but many, many people have tried over several years to enter into a meaningful dialogue with her. I sat up half one night trying, but it is a complete waste of time. So don’t bother, you won’t achieve anything.

And Sally if Nardini does not take your advice to put you on his ignore list, then take control of the situation and put him on yours

[quote=juliancoll;96832]Once again please Pigro - in English - or even Italian. :bigergrin:[/quote]
sorry Julian, I don't do recursion in any language other than 'C++' ... that counts as a joke where I work, sad, innit! Here's a better one:

A girl walked into a bar and asked for a double entendre, so the barman gave her one.

I still don't get it! :winki:

I guess you could google for it then?

Moved to : Italiauncovered.co.uk

marc will have a lot of splitting to do if this keeps up ..

Marc is sensible enough to know that the thread has ended and we are all just having a bit of fun.

It's not the Circolo.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96851]It's not the Circolo.[/quote]

It may as well be now - so just chill out for a while Sal. Start a new thread - about Ryanair - we haven't had one of those for a while. :laughs:

Good lord...Talk about dollies & prams.
Bunch

[quote=Bunch;97250]Good lord...Talk about dollies & prams.
Bunch[/quote]

What talk about dollies and prams? Granted it is a very muddled thread but I can't find any reference to dollies or prams. :veryconfused:

[quote=Nielo;97257]What talk about dollies and prams? Granted it is a very muddled thread but I can't find any reference to dollies or prams. :veryconfused:[/quote]

Now don't tell me that you haven't understood the subtlety of Bunch's analogy between the behaviour of certain people on this thread and a kid 'chucking it's dolls out of it's pram!'

Better than saying 'Oo look mum, the grown ups are gonna have a fight!' :laughs:

[quote=Carole B;97260]Now don't tell me that you haven't understood the subtlety of Bunch's analogy between the behaviour of certain people on this thread and a kid 'chucking it's dolls out of it's pram!'

Better than saying 'Oo look mum, the grown ups are gonna have a fight!' :laughs:[/quote]

Nah it's all too subtle for me, and as I don't know which ‘certain people’ you are referring to I fail to see the usefulness of Bunch's observations subtle or otherwise, but that is just my opinion.

.....and mine.
Bunch

I thought everyone was just having a bit of fun...yes?.
A

[quote=Angie and Robert;97273]I thought everyone was just having a bit of fun...yes?.
A[/quote]

Yes Angie I thought so too, but I seem to miss a lot of what others see and Bunch is of a different opinion. Who knows?

Strange how different people read the same thing in different ways - I read Bunchs comments as stating that there was no point in anyone tossing dolls out of prams because the thread went off topic - but hey - it's all good and no ones blood was spilt. This time! :bigergrin: