10374 Work Permits For Carers

The Italians are so caring that if they cannot find a Romanian to look after their parent/whoever they I'm sure will look after them themselves.

It will perhaps too create vacancies for Italians so not a bad move I feel. There again maybe it's like sweeping the streets here where mainly ethnic/non British, people are employed. It's not their "scene" to be employed in such a capacity perhaps..

I am concerned as many elderly people, particularly in smaller towns are a bit lonely. Their families have left to work in larger cities and they are currently employing Eastern Europeans to look after the elderly. The same thing is happening in other countries, such as Spain.
Younger people have big mortgages to repay, work commitments, problems looking after their own children, the employment of Eastern Europeans seemed to be a solution. The same thing is happening in Spain. A couple of generations back, families looked after their elderly people. Nowadays, they employ Latin American immigrants to look after them. They have the advantage of speaking the same language and have similar roots and cultures.
I think that the Italian government should have a closer look at the situation, because the ones who are going to suffer are those who need help.

I take your points Gala, but old folk in villages I question whether they are lonely. They seem to while away the day sitting in the sunshine throughout a good several months chatting to neighbours who can speak their language/dialect and have much in common.

I wonder what numbers of Romanian Carers we are talking about.

Going back o what you said, in fact my Italian friend, the lawyer, a few years ago, took in his very seriously father who was seriously ill rather than let him stay in the family home with his brother and family who needed the space. At the time he was commuting to and from Rome and had no other option than to employ someone who turned out to be ..... a Romanian. lady.

Yes, these women are currently being employed to look after elderly folks and young children. They say that they are excellent carers. It would be great if the Italian bureaucracy would help them in order to get all the necessary permits.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96424]I take your points Gala, but old folk in villages I question whether they are lonely. They seem to while away the day sitting in the sunshine throughout a good several months chatting to neighbours who can speak their language/dialect and have much in common.

I wonder what numbers of Romanian Carers we are talking about.

Going back o what you said, in fact my Italian friend, the lawyer, a few years ago, took in his very seriously father who was seriously ill rather than let him stay in the family home with his brother and family who needed the space. At the time he was commuting to and from Rome and had no other option than to employ someone who turned out to be ..... a Romanian. lady.[/quote]

Sorry, I just need to batter away the bluebirds and butterflies for a moment here, Sally.

The realities of "real" life in Italy are a little more complex than just "true love". With the birth rate being as low as it is - and having been so for many years now - there are a very large number of elderly people that have no family to look after them at all. This situation is further compounded by the kind of mass emigration that Italy has seen during the past hundred years, or so.

The fact that old, wrinkled people, sitting out in the sun on a fine summers day can look very ... well, decorative, shall we say, says nothing for the personal situation that an old person can be experiencing. It is not all about a pretty view at all - there are real human issues involved here. For a great many people - a growing number, in fact - a badante is the only human contact that they can hope to experience on a day by day basis. Shopping is another problem for many people, especially with the slow decline in rural services. Yes, it's fine if you are wealthy and can afford to pay people to do such things - but if you are not wealthy - normal, in other words - you have a problem.

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gobble the bobble.

I agree with you, Nardini, families are living differently nowadays and many of them move to larger cities because of their work, leaving behind the elderly. These are the people who are currently paying these ladies to look after nonnas, nonnos, etc. They can't do their shopping by themselves or look after their houses and I do not think that they would be happy moving to a small appartment in a large city.

[quote=Nardini;96448]..........With the birth rate being as low as it is - and having been so for many years now - there are a very large number of elderly people that have no family to look after them at all. .....................[/quote]

Seems like they need to face up to the reality of their earlier actions.

Yes I know that sound harsh - but that's life.

What is important is that we all start planning for our old age - I certainly don't want my kids to be 'lumbered' [another emotive word] with me.

Hopefully I've got things sorted so they won't feel they need to look after me - because I don't fell they have any obligation to do so

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Anyway, I'll be OK - I heard my kids say they would look after me in my dotage [no it isn't here yet!] - [they said they'll find a nice cheap home to put me in]

[quote=alan h;96454]Seems like they need to face up to the reality of their earlier actions....Anyway, I'll be OK [/quote]
So, Alan. You are saying that because they didn't breed like rabbits when they were young, or because they didn't (or more likely couldn't afford to) buy additional insurance (I can't see how that would work, by the way), or were just "unlucky" enough to be born into a poor Italian family, they should now just suck on the lemon and accept their rather sad fate?

Or are you saying something else that I haven't quite grasped? Enlighten me a little here, Alan.

PS. I'm glad to hear that you are "OK, Jack". No, really I am...

This thread has raised interesting issues, for those living and intending to die here, what are the provisions going to be when you are too old/ill/demented to look after yourself?.I know it is an issue for Italian families too, we have a friend an only child who looks after his increasingly dememted mother, but he also has to work, the day facility she used to go to is closed, and there is no other provision than to rely on neighbours and if push comes to shove try to buy in help.
I am not aware of what happens to the elderly if there is no family help, does anyone else know?, perhaps the church provides care?.
Also there are other families I know who look after relatives within the home despite their own failing health, and there seems no respite care provided, and little state money to buy that in, also the test for who requires help is rigerous and I understand it is helpul to be "in the know" to achieve it.
Seems a sorry state of circumstances for all concerned.
A

[quote=Nardini;96458]So, Alan. You are saying that because they didn't breed like rabbits when they were young, or because they didn't (or more likely couldn't afford to) buy additional insurance (I can't see how that would work, by the way), or were just "unlucky" enough to be born into a poor Italian family, they should now just suck on the lemon and accept their rather sad fate?......[/quote]

No - I was referring to the comment on the low birth rate - what I was saying was, if [and I do mean if], people choose to have no or few children, they should plan for what happens to them in old age.

I also believe that people should not expect their kids to look after them when they are old

My mother looked after her parents until they died, [they both lived [thankfully] to a fairly ripe old age.] Mum visited every day - cleaned, did some cooking, etc etc. When Nan died, Grandad came for lunch every Sunday - my Uncles did very little to help her]. She didn't begrudge looking after them - as the only girl she was [in the 50's and 60's] 'expected' to do it.

By the time my parents got old, my brother and I had both ‘moved away’ and were not able to look after them on a daily basis – luckily they had good friends and neighbours, so things weren’t too bad – but I did feel guilty about how little I could do for them.

I don't want that for my kids - anyway, like so many these days they also have 'moved away', so won't necessarily be around. So I plan ahead on that basis

I don't have an 'I'm all right Jack' view on it - nobody can tell what will happen over time - but I have tried to plan for what I think may happen - surely there's nothing wrong in that. I also [naively] expect others to also plan ahead for their old age

I strongly believe that you cannot expect kids to look after people as they get old - its good if they do, and should be encouraged wherever possible, but its not an obligation on them.

It is a problem that rests with the people affected and the State - if all else fails, I would expect the State to step in - even in Italy

I have an Italian friend who's in his mid 40s and he wants his three children to marry early, have their children early, and then look after him in his later years. Luckily too though he owns a pharmacy and is raking it in so if his plans fall through, well ..... lol

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96465]I have an Italian friend who's in his mid 40s and he wants his three children to marry early, have their children early, and then look after him in his later years. ..... [/quote]

Perhaps its a cultural thing - expecting your kids to look after you. [a bit like the uk 40+ years ago]

I've always seen one of my roles as a parent to be to do whatever is [legally] possible to give my kids as good a start in life as possible - and not to breed geriatric carers.

[quote=alan h;96464]...I was saying was, if [and I do mean if], people choose to have no or few children, they should plan for what happens to them in old age....I don't have an 'I'm all right Jack' view on it - nobody can tell what will happen over time...It is a problem that rests with the people affected and the State - if all else fails, I would expect the State to step in - even in Italy[/quote]I agree with a few points you make, Alan. Although, speaking as someone that is now retired and also as a father with two sons living in England, I can speak with a little experience. Experience as to both the realities of the situation affecting older people as well as someone with a lot of older Italian family members.

I live in a rural community, not too far from Milano, in a street that comprises mostly of older (over 80 years old) people. Us young'uns have to keep an eye open for the older residents because they are: a) stubborn, b) very old and c) we chose to. I'm not complaining about the situation at all, as I also know that were we to have problems with our physical well-being, we would also be well "looked after" by everyone here. It actually doesn't matter in the slightest how much money you or they have, nor what ones pension is (an Italian pension is amongst the most generous in Europe - far better than in the UK, for instance) - it is merely an expression of care and respect of humanity in general.

Whilst it is not a problem to spend the remainder of your life living in an old people's retirement home, most people, when that time comes, would not chose to. I hope you can appreciate that when you are old, you feel exactly the same as when you are young and wild horses wouldn't drag me (or anyone else I know) out of my home into a retirement home, let me tell you.

So, you have a lot of elderly, independent old people that may, or may not, have the wherewithal to go into a home in which to pass the time until their death - for that is the symbolism of an old peoples home, when you are old. In the UK, you have "Home Helps", that attend to the everyday needs of the elderly - in Italy, you have badante. Simple really - a simple analogy to the same type of care and support service that you take for granted in the UK. The difference here being that there are a great number of elderly people - the UK is very rapidly catching up though.

As with the UK, there are various kinds of "means tests" to ascertain that the state should pay for any care services and, as in the UK, should you go (or be sent) into an old peoples home, your assets are used to pay for that service.

As a pensioner here, you have access to all of the services and care services that you might expect in the UK, with much the same provisions regarding payment for those service. The problem is more conflating those provisions for old age with situations where you also have extreme poverty in the mix.

There are many old people who neither know, nor would want to accept what they see as charity - especially from young whipper-snappers that think they know everything about life and are ready to condemn people for what they consider to be the failures of those people in life.

To say that they "need to face up to the reality of their earlier actions" is rather missing the point of sharing the fruits of ones life with those less fortunate than yourself. It could, remarkably easily, be seen as an incredibly selfish thought.

[quote=alan h;96464]I strongly believe that you cannot expect kids to look after people as they get old - its good if they do, and should be encouraged wherever possible, but its not an obligation on them.[/quote]
I wanted to pick up on this particular point separately, as otherwise I felt it would be missed in "words".

I don't accept that any insurance that I may, or may not have actioned in my younger days should be able to keep me in the style to which I have become accustomed, as I have to gamble that the company will still be in business in my retirement. In point of fact, the insurances that I did take out many years ago, with all kinds of really, really attractive "illustrations" as to their worth on maturity, have, without exception, proven to be of less worth than my old MG Midget. In other words, not a lot.

But all of that aside Nardini, I know that provision here is very patchy, it would be nice to know that your neighbours would help, but not always the case, for people I know here the reality is very different.In the UK it was hard enough to find provision in an acceptable place for an elderley relative with the money to fund that place, the basic state run places were foul.What I would like to know is what really happens here,?
A

Well, Angie, there are several possibilities here that can be explored. Firstly, as with the UK, you talk with your GP (medico) about your situation/problem - if he/she doesn't already know, of course. If you have been a member of a union, you can talk to the local representative - they can arrange a surprising amount and your past union membership will still give you access to union resources. If you don't have these possibilities - or are unhappy with what you are told, you go to your local ASL office and talk about your situation there. If all that fails - i.e. you feel dissatisfied with the available state provisions offered to you locally, you can talk to your councillors or, if you are a citizen of Italy by now, your parliamentary representative. You can also pop in for a chat with the local old people's home, if you like the look of it. So far, this is not very different to the UK, including, sad to say, the disinclination of some officials to help you "out of their own pocket", as they seem to think.

The biggest difference here is the amount of help that is possible from the church - although, that help will vary enormously from parish to parish, depending on the attitude of the priest at the time. Gala will be able, I'm sure, to tell you rather more about the church perspective.

The actual homes themselves are not, in my experience, much different to those in the UK. The private ones always look clean, tidy and efficient (looks can be deceiving, of course). The "state" homes are usually very big and the church ones look more like smaller state type homes. You are expected to contribute to your care and accommodation if you have the means - which will be the subject of tests to check you don't have a Swiss bank account bulging at the seams, or haven't given away your property to anyone - or sold it under valuation - during, i believe, the past 10 years. I stand to be corrected on that point, however.

I hope that I will be able to come up to Nardini's expectations by advising you to read this long and comprehensive document about the Catholic Church involvement in the provision of welfare services, not only to seniors but to other needy groups. The document also provide an interesting analysis of Italian welfare.

[url]http://www.student.teol.uu.se/wrep/wp/Wrep_I_pp_269-287.pdf[/url]

[quote=Gala Placidia;96541]I hope that I will be able to come up to Nardini's expectations [/quote]Expectations surpassed, Gala, thank you. An interesting item. Is the rest of the book available?

This paper was recommended to me by a cousin who has strong links with Caritas, the Catholic welfare organisation. I understand that the source is the Faculty of Theology at Uppsala University (Sweden), hence the comparisons in the document with the Swedish welfare system. It may be a one off paper produced by a student as part of the course work. But I also find it exceptionally accurate and informative. I'm glad that you enjoyed it.

Further on the current situation, which is becoming a nightmare for thousands of Italian families who absolutely depend on carers to look after their elderly or infirm relatives. Once again, bureaucracy works against society. Mamma mia!!!!!

[url=http://www.corriere.it/english/08_settembre_09/work_permits_carers_190d0a8e-7e6b-11dd-8ebb-00144f02aabc.shtml]Notizie di cronaca del Corriere della Sera[/url]

[quote=Nardini;96535]The "state" homes are usually very big and the church ones look more like smaller state type homes. You are expected to contribute to your care and accommodation if you have the means - which will be the subject of tests to check you don't have a Swiss bank account bulging at the seams, or haven't given away your property to anyone - or sold it under valuation - during, i believe, [B]the past 10 years[/B]. I stand to be corrected on that point, however.[/quote]

I am 99.9% sure it is actually 7 years.