10363 Renting out your house

Amazing...did you miss the alert given on this forum regarding Inspectors/Finance Police at work in Le Marche a week or so ago....track back and find this info pronto Mandy2.

Not fair, Nobile. Someone asks for advice & a somewhat 'spikey' answer follows!

M2, there are a lot of considerations......the key ones are how you intend to rent:
- are you renting privately?
- via an agency
- or just to friends?

.....key is whether you renting as a private individual or as your own limited company? There are approaches whereby you could set yourself up as a UK limited company (I should know as I had done that...........a long time ago!) and that means you have a contract under UK law. It also depends upon your T&Cs as these can cover any number of exclusions and waivers.

I'm not saying that it's easy to avoid liability as it isn;t; our rule was "would I stay there and feel safe and happy to recommend it?"

Sorry to contradict you here, David, but if you set up a business here in Italy offering services to the public, you are fully liable under Italian law. Setting up an overseas company (which is what a UK one would be in this case) will only impact on your tax situation, not any liabilities to comply with any and all legislation affecting the kind of operation that Mandy2 is planning.

Mandy2; it would be very dangerous for you to try and ignore the laws of the land. Italians never ignore them - they may very well find a way around them, but never simply ignore. To do so would put you and your project in peril of fines, closures and, possibly, even seizures. Don't do it! Get advice from an Italian registered lawyer - English speaking - before trying to do something silly, like ignoring the law or running an illegal business. From your comments I take it you haven't sought any advice yet from any Italian professionals? You should do so. Straight away.

[quote=Mandy2;96308]I'm absolutely sure this must have been covered here somewhere in the past but I can't find any relevant info by searching. I am about to finish renovating my italian house and would like to know where to go to find any rules/regulations that are in place in Italy regarding renting out your house as a holiday let. For example, restrictions on depth of pool, is it necessary to be registered with the local commune, etc. Or am I being a terribly serious Brit and I should just get on with it with an italian view to rules/regulations that may or may not exist??

Mandy2[/quote]

There are various rules and regulations but they seem to vary from comune to comune so best to speak to the relevant person in your comune - their advice is free and at least you know you will be told how they interpret the rules!

[quote=Mandy2;96308]I'm absolutely sure this must have been covered here somewhere in the past but I can't find any relevant info by searching. I am about to finish renovating my italian house and would like to know where to go to find any rules/regulations that are in place in Italy regarding renting out your house as a holiday let. For example, restrictions on depth of pool, is it necessary to be registered with the local commune, etc. Or am I being a terribly serious Brit and I should just get on with it with an italian view to rules/regulations that may or may not exist??

Mandy2[/quote]
OK done my penance...here's the thread Mandy2....good luck from Spikey!

Old 01-09-08, 05:39 PM
villa sibillini
Senator
Location: San Ginesio, Macerata, Marche

A Note of Caution villa rentals in marche
We have just been tipped off that the finance police in le marche are following the lead of those in tuscany, by checking villa rental sites and availability charts to see which owners are working and their prices. Following the investigation, owners may be tracked down and fined according to their adverts.

Anyone running legally with accounts need not worry, but if not, it's a good idea to get advice from either uk or italian tax experts - there is Blevins Franks in the UK and Michael (don't remember his surname) who writes on this forum sometimes. We were also told by our accountant to ensure that our business name and IVA number is displayed on our web site.
__________________
Pam & David Bates
[url=http://www.villasibillini.com]Villa Sibillini - Villa in Italy Le Marche[/url]

Thanks for the replies. The financial/tax situation isn't a problem for me as any income will be declared for tax as necessary. The question really relates to legal vs illegal activity with regard to holiday home lets and has come about as the result of a small problem I had with the neighbouring family during the messy part of my house renovation.

The neighbouring family (english) use their house as a holiday let when they are not using it and took exception to the length of time it was taking to get my place from being an old wreck through the building site stage to looking acceptable again - they probably had a point as 8 months has now turned into 3 years. Anyway, when Mrs English Neighbour became quite upset at one stage with the amount of builder's rubble in my garden, she managed to agitate my geometra who in exasperation told me that she needed to be careful how she spoke as she was running an illegal business by renting out her house. I got the impression from this and other comments that there were certain rules /permissions necessary that my neighbours hadn't complied with but nobody was too interested unless this family upset the peace in any way for the local community - and this includes being critical of local builders, geometras, etc. I've avoided the subject with my geometra since as too much mention of the neighbouring family is all it takes to turn his perfectly acceptable english into some incomprehensible fully gesticulated local dialect'

I guess the answer to my question is to be found at the local commune as has been suggested. As my italian is another a work in progress, this could prove to be an interesting experience!!

Cheers
Mandy2

I think you are very wise Mandy in your assessment of your neighbour, I am very glad she wasnt living next to us during our building project, rubble everywhere and the local white road nearly caving in due to undermining of the structure by bad builders, it could have been awful, but our Italian neighbours never complained, the comune were very supportive and helpful, and it all worked out in the end.I think for some rural Italy is not the tameable England they are used to, and whilst it is usually very tranquil here, today we have had tractors and chain saws buzzing away, it is pointless to upset your neighbours wherever you live, be it England or Italy, and it is a different mind set for happily living here. Hope you sort your situation, happy letting.
A

Mandy2: If your neighbour continues to act as though they still live in Neasden, I would suggest a word with your local Vigili - usually known nowadays as the Polizia Locale. They usually look pretty daunting, but are much the same as the UK traffic wardens in reality. One of their principal functions is to mediate in disputes between neighbours, so they are the people to appeal to and get on your side first.

As their other job is to police speeding and parking traffic as well as operating speed cameras, the more work you can give them to keep them off the streets, the better, eh?

Good job they don't live next to us then!

Mandy thanks for telling us your real reason for asking, the Italian half of me says get things properly sorted before renting ...the English have acted in the worst way possible and you could easily get the finger pointed at you too!

Mandy, try to avoid fights with neighbours and don't do anything too radical. I would also be upset if my neighbour is taking so long to renovate the house and particularly if the builders are living the place in a total mess. Three years is long enough to upset anyone. You should not try to find out what is wrong or illegal in the neighbour's business, that will only bring trouble and it looks as if it is only based on local gossip. Concentrate on fixing your own problems and ask your builders to finish the renovations as soon as possible for the good of everyone involved.....

Thanks Gala Placidia et al for all comments. I have spent most of the last 3 years trying hard to not upset any neighbours and don't believe the situation is beyond redemption. I really think this family adored the ruin next door and the tranquility of their position before I turned up. Hopefully, once all is done we will call a truce and bury the past in the past. It is just fascinating from the perspective that the local italians were so accepting that there would be some disruption during a renovation for a time but the local english moaned like drains!!

Mandy2

As you said, Mandy, the neighbours were possibly quite happy with the ruin next door. Now it is up to you to show them that they are better off with a renovated house and some good neighbours around. As soon as you can, invite them to have a drink and show them what you are doing. Ask for their advice. They will be delighted and will cause no further problems.

could someone let me know how to register for paying rental income tax on our place?

You will need an accountant - either italian or contact blevins franks in london for information

thanks villa sib, is there no way i can do it myself and save a few euros?

don't think so :-( (I wish!) You need an accountant as far as I know to file (unlike ICI which you can pay on your own) I think you used to be able to not file if you made under 7k/year (?) but I believe that is no longer the case (I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in since I'm generally clueless about tax issues)

The Italian systems seem so complicated that they have been invented to make sure the accountants get loads of work! We did have and English speaking Italian, who gave us some bad advice and cost us a fortune - so you need to ask some locals who is the best one, or if you live in the uk then try blevins.

[quote=Nardini;96406]Mandy2: If your neighbour continues to act as though they still live in Neasden, I would suggest a word with your local Vigili - usually known nowadays as the Polizia Locale. They usually look pretty daunting, but are much the same as the UK traffic wardens in reality. One of their principal functions is to mediate in disputes between neighbours, so they are the people to appeal to and get on your side first.

As their other job is to police speeding and parking traffic as well as operating speed cameras, the more work you can give them to keep them off the streets, the better, eh?[/quote]
Mandy Just let me say how disgusting of your English Neighbour to complain, she could be in for a shock when the finance police catch her up! It is a shame that you do not have nice Italian neighbours like ourselves. I do wish you all the success with your project but you must take the time to find out how you should go about renting your property.
Just let me add that the Poliza Locale are very helpful with any stiuation they can deal with. I had a dog "not on a lead, no muzzle" which got hold of my ankle and jumped up at me about 5 months ago, the same dog then jumped up at me again and also at 3 different guests of ours whilst walking to the village. The owners have now had 2 warnings from the Poliza Locale and if this happens again the guests or myself are to denounce this dog to the Caribineri.

Christine
Shambala

Thanks for the info Shambala. I just want to make it clear, as I think some thought I may be trying to get back at my neighbours in some way, that my question is about how not to fall into the same situation as my neighbours. These neighbours have, at times, been very supportive but 3 years is a long time. Their house has been rented out as a private rental for some years but some of the locals appear to believe they do not follow the rules and that their business is illegal. This could be because they do not pay tax on their income which may be annoying to those that do (I don't know whether they do or not or if indeed there is ultimately tax to be paid) but I'm really asking if there are other "rules" to follow when renting out a private property. I'm sure once my property is finally sorted, everything will be OK - we are all nice people at the end of the day and as has been mentioned we could be of much benefit to each other!!!
Mandy2

[quote=villa sibillini;97386]The Italian systems seem so complicated that they have been invented to make sure the accountants get loads of work! We did have and English speaking Italian, who gave us some bad advice and cost us a fortune - so you need to ask some locals who is the best one, or if you live in the uk then try blevins.[/quote]
We took on an Italian accountant although he does not speak any English he was
very helpful and on arrival 5 years ago. The accountant did a buisiness plan, obtaining a morgage for us after we had been refused twice with other people. He aslo helped us obtain a remorgage which enabled us to do further work on the property. We are still with that accountant although he is not cheap at least we have been given all the correct advise on running a buisness.

Christine
Shambala

[quote=Mandy2;97442]Thanks for the info Shambala. I just want to make it clear, as I think some thought I may be trying to get back at my neighbours in some way, that my question is about how not to fall into the same situation as my neighbours. These neighbours have, at times, been very supportive but 3 years is a long time. Their house has been rented out as a private rental for some years but some of the locals appear to believe they do not follow the rules and that their business is illegal. This could be because they do not pay tax on their income which may be annoying to those that do (I don't know whether they do or not or if indeed there is ultimately tax to be paid) but I'm really asking if there are other "rules" to follow when renting out a private property. I'm sure once my property is finally sorted, everything will be OK - we are all nice people at the end of the day and as has been mentioned we could be of much benefit to each other!!!
Mandy2[/quote] I do think it would be nice if you could all forget what has been said in the past, and even better if you could work along side each other. This I am sure is absoluty possible. Most of the English people do get on with each other
and also intergrate well with the Italian community, unfortunately there are a few people who are very negative about everyone and everything that goes on around them. I have heard from alot of the Italians around me saying that they are upset with people not paying taxes for renting out there properties. I hope that you are able to communicate with your neighbours and discuss any issues.

Christine
Shambala