10407 What would you do??

go back to the UK?

Seriously it may be your only option and sooner rather than later when you'll end up owing everyone.Its a horrible position to be in but a common one too especailly when some of income from holidays/selling luxury products services is going to dry up do the the recession in UK economy.

If you have savings. pension, rental income from UK its like a dream come true; moving to a beautiful rustic property with acres of olive trees but for everyone else its a hard slog living from day to day eeking out a few euros from whatever work you can find.

I just spent a very depressing couple of minutes thinking through what I'd do in that situation.

If one has no skills that are in demand locally or other ways of generating income, then clearly the present arrangements are simply not viable. It seems to me that the only option then open is to liquidate whatever assets one might have and go somewhere that it is possible to earn a living. If necessary -- and in the hypothetical situation you describe I think it would be -- the person in difficulty could either sell smaller assets or take out a formal or informal loan against the value of real estate which would be sold (possibly at not a particularly good price in today's economic climate).

If there are no assets to convert into cash, then it seems the best one can do is to get to a place where the state will provide sufficient basic support to prevent one from starving or dying of exposure while a new life is built from scratch.

All very depressing, but sometimes life dumps on you and all that's possible is to try ensure that big problems don't turn into a disaster. Ignoring reality and hoping something will turn up is really not advisable in such situations.

I hate to say this but do what most people have done in the UK. Make up a good profile for yourself and go on a borrowing spree. There are still plenty of credit card companies eager to lend, then forget about it ,rotate the money, enjoy yourself and by the time they catch up with you in a couple of years time you become bankrupt. Unfortunately this scenario is reality and the cause of a lot of what is wrong with UK society today.

[quote=Aretina;96779]A hypothetical question?

Hi All

What would you do, as a UK national/Italian resident when everything had turned to dog sh*t (the best word in this situation). You found yourself down to your last week's housekeeping money and absolutely no idea where the next euro or pound was coming from? (no job, pension, savings, rich family etc.)[/quote]

i've even seen this kind of thing but i'm always amazed to notice that going out ,getting a job and working is never on anyones agenda.people will say that they have no skills,don't speak enough italian,don't know of any jobs.the reality is there are loads of jobs (not well paid) but paid, it's just bl++dy hard....so it's never on the agenda....

Very difficult to give the right advice. If I were in that position, I would sell some assets to try to get some badly needed liquidity. Borrowing against assets may also be an idea, but one has to be very careful as the money has to be repaid.
I would analyse what can be gained by going back to the UK weighing all the pros and cons. Also, whether this situation is only temporary or if it is likely to be like this for a very long time and whether the implementation of some new ideas or activities may help to overcome the current situation.
And I would advise anyone to keep on fighting and not to loose hope.

Aretina
Sorry to hear about your hypothetical situation. It's difficult to give proper advice as it depends on knowing the whole story, circumstances and personal situation.

One piece of advice I can offer is not to take Luce Dell' Amore's advice.

Hi

Many thanks for the replies.... but kept this 'hypothetical' to a) protect another and b) see if I could get more information/advice that would help the situation.

'No property assets or other significant assets either in Italy or UK, single, female, work ? - too close to 60 to have a realistic chance of long term employment - although has been trying to get work. Looks like it could be a long term problem.

Can she get any help via Italian social security?
Thanks everyone for your replies

A PS
This is a quote from another thread 'forget google' by Nielo today and sort of sums up why I am asking you for advice and suggestions re: What would you do?'

""If there is something I want to find out, I do an Internet search, most of the time I can find the information I need but if I can’t I may well ask a forum for help. If a forum member is able to find a link to the information where I could not, then that is great, but most often if I can’t find it myself, it means it is not there. This is where the real value of a forum takes over, I hope that amongst the members there may be someone who has actually got the information I need from personal experience""

My understanding and not from search engines. is that EU members have reciprocal social security rights but os probably dependent on National Insurance contributions paid in the UK .

Maybe the British Embassy or Consulate could provide the necessary information.

Surely Arentina, if she is so close to pension age then would it not be possible to hold out until then. Perhaps surrender an insurance policy or something like that to keep going. OK, not one of the best ideas, but at least it could help in the short term, until she can work other options out.

Aretina, Do you own the properties on Tuscanyfortwo.com? If so could you not find work for this lady?
Sad situation to be in.

Like Allan I spent a frustrated few minutes thinking about this and it really does depend on the actual situtation - as others have said. However, could your hypothetical person not offer some service locally? Perhaps as a cleaner, housekeeer or childminder - perhaps she could make something that is needed locally - turn her hand to a few different options - prepare properties for handovers for holiday lets - meet and greet - do the shopping. It all really depends on what she is capable of doing - and what she is prepared to do.

I wish her luck. :smile:

Not knowing the exact situation of this person in relation to social security benefits from the UK, perhaps you could have a look at the site which contains the agreements between the UK and Italy. There is a reciprocal agreement in place, whether it is applicable or not in this case depends on the person's situation. Here is the link:

[url=http://www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/social_security_agreements.asp]DWP - Services and benefits - Social security agreements between the United Kingdom (UK) and other countries[/url]

Also, the advice given to contact the UK Embassy or Consulate is very good.

[quote=Geotherm;96803]Surely Arentina, if she is so close to pension age .[/quote]

50??? She has another 10 years, at least.

Perhaps too at the moment she could help with the grape harvesting. Also some of the really big wine producers employ hostesses to show visitors around over the long summer season. The beauty there is that also you might never know what opportunities can arise meeting all these clients. I went after one such job with Brunello Wines but alas the vacancy was already filled.

As she is below state pension age and assuming she's fully fit then it's Jobseekers Allowance she will have to claim as she will not be entitled to Social Security.

[url=http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/WorkingAgeBenefits/Dev_007964.xml.html]Jobcentre Plus - Working Age Benefits Coming from or going abroad?[/url]

Sorry afraid I don't have any more ideas to add to what everyone's said. However some have mentioned reciprocal social security benefits - the problem with that is that she may find that were she an Italian in a similar situation then she wouldn't be entitled to any money. You only get unemployment benefit in Italy if you have made equivalent NI contributions in the run up to be unemployed and even then you only get it for 6 months. I know of an Italian in a similar situation who through no fault of her own has ended up back living with her parents at 50 years of age - she gets a few months seasonal work and that has to tide her over for the whole year - no benefits at all.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96808]50??? She has another 10 years, at least.

Perhaps too at the moment she could help with the grape harvesting. Also some of the really big wine producers employ hostesses to show visitors around over the long summer season. The beauty there is that also you might never know what opportunities can arise meeting all these clients. I went after one such job with Brunello Wines but alas the vacancy was already filled.[/quote]
too close to 60
That was the post comment Sally, think you misread it.

Can't she find a husband?

Hi

Borrini - Yes we do, but we are fully staffed and if I could I would. I am helping in what way I can but this help will not help in the medium or indeed long term. Thanks again for the suggestions, it will help when I see her next week and try to suggest some solutions.

Thanks Sally about the embassy suggestion, if they cannot help they might know of some other solution.

Again thanks for all the replies.

She could also look at contacting local nursing agencies to work as a care assistant helping to look after an elderly person. More mature, reliable ladies are often in demand. Often they are looking for people prepared to work for a couple of weeks to assist someone post surgery/hospital admission but sometimes more long term assistance is needed. Usually no nursing skills are required, only someone to provide housekeeping type assistance - depending upon the individuals requirements non-residential and residential positions are usually available. With the latter food and board are included so would cut down on your friends personal bills as well as earning her a some sort of salary.
Horrible situation to be in - sadly I doubt the embassy will offer much help as it is not really their role, but they may suggest where she could turn to next. I hope it all works out for her.

Thanks Anne2

That could be a very good idea, perhaps she could contact the local health/social servces etc.

Aretina, tell her to contact the local parish, they always know about people who need carers or helpers and they may be able to find something for her, particularly if they know about her predicament. Local health and social services is also a good idea.

Horrible situation to be in - sadly I doubt the embassy will offer much help as it is not really their role, but they may suggest where she could turn to next. I hope it all works out for her.

I'd suggested the Embassy who might know of state benefits entitlement.

[quote=Geotherm;96811]too close to 60
That was the post comment Sally, think you misread it.[/quote]

So I did. Sorry

What a depressing outlook to be at virtually rock bottom and only able to consider "caring" for those equal unfortunates. If fit and healthy she could and should aim for something a little bit better than that which will give her a quality lifestyle., even if it means returning to the UK.. Perhaps she could study here.

A further thought is I mentioned the vendage ie grape harvest. However if she's determined to stay in Italy, there are many organic farms all over Italy and indeed the world that take on people throughout they year and provide board and lodging in exchange. [url=http://www.wwoof.org/]WWOOF - World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms[/url] She could study at The Open University alongside this

What's her background ie work history and talents?? Is her Italian fluent etc???

What you need is someone who knows how to navigate the UK benefits system. Armed with the correct information she could return to the UK and live off benefits, I am of course presuming that she has worked in the past and paid in?

I understand that so long as you are fit and under 60, the state retirement age, with no other income, you are entitled to Jobseekers Allowance, regardless of whether you have paid National Insurance. There are two kinds of Jobseekers Allowance, contributions based and non contributions based. With the former you are entitled to claim for up to three months if you then decide live in another EU country.

One last point is that I think you have to have a bona fide UK address if you decide to claim here.

[url=http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/index.html]Jobcentre Plus[/url]

There by the grace of God...How many of us thought just that I wonder? Particularly those of us who are in late middle-age and female. Why does this unfortunate woman want to remain in Italy? She would survive far better in England, where with help she can navigate the benefits system and there are so many charities/alms house type places, that offer help with accommodation. I have experience of helping quite a few "ladies of a certain age" survive in England". It is so much easier to make the best of things in your own country.
From what I have read and what I have personally learnt, in Italy foreigners working as carers are in the main "illegal" and poorly paid and often poorly treated. Few would choose to do it. At going on 60 many of us cannot physically cope with a full days manual work, washing up plates or cleaning for the amount of hours needed to earn enough to live on. This drudgery is acceptable for the young/youngish foreigner who wants to make a life in Italy. (They are usually escaping a lesser life in their own country). I know many women who work all hours and now have mortgages, a car and a decent life in Umbria but they earn it the hard way and rely on good health and a strong back! I assume your lady would not be able to work manually for long hours? I would gently encourage her to return to England.

On the other hand Noble, we don't know how long she's been in Italy. Perhaps she has friends in Italy and none or little in the UK. Also the weather is so awful here and my feeling is that she would get even more depressed for that reason.

We can only speculate. We don't have enough information at this point.

There is not only job seekers allowance, there is a much better benefit, incapability benefit or incapacity benefit which pays out more I think. All she has to do is convince the powers that be she is suffering from some complaint or other which makes her unable to work, I think they would also find her somewhere to live. I know of someone who’s only disability is that they are a drunk and they are 'raking it in’. It is a pity she is past child bearing age because I also know someone who has 4 children by 4 different men and she is receiving over £30 k pa. (Sometimes I wonder why I ever bothered to work!)

But, as it is my taxes paying for it I would rather they went to a lady in distress than a junky or an alcoholic or someone who has never worked and contributed.

The UK benefits system is for such instances as you describe; a safety net and I don’t see why she should not use it in her hour of need, when so many others abuse it!

I hear it's becoming extremely difficult for those in receipt of Incapacity Benefit these days. The UK government is putting pressure on Incapacity Benefit claiments. The one good thing perhaps is that if you are over 50, then after six months on all benefits you can go onto New Deal 50+ which is a government scheme It's voluntary but they help you find work.

Again we are jumping the gun. All we know is that she is near 60, female and broke currently

Ah well I bow to your greater knowledge of the UK benefits system Sally. I have never claimed myself but the alcoholic I know recently won an appeal against having his incredibility benefit stopped. If you know the system you can milk it, as so many do!

[quote=Charles Phillips;96812]Can't she find a husband?[/quote]

She doesn't need another drain on her resources Charles - unless [I]you[/I] are proposing of course! :bigergrin:

Hi

Again, many thanks for the suggestions. Without having all the information you have been very helpful with the variety of responses and I hope they will help when I show her this thread when I see her next week.

To follow the homeless route in the UK she would need to satisfy certain conditions, that she is vunerable, (through reasons of health usually), that her homelessness is not intentional, and that she has a local connection to the housing office she presents to.Unless of course she is fleeing domestic violence and then she may present anywhere. It is by no means an easy route to take, and there is no certainty that she would be accepted. And at best any accomodation she might be offered could be pretty grim.
Perhaps staying in Italy if she can find work might be the better option, but all the details of her situation would need to be known before informed advice could be given.
A

There could be another solution if your friend owns a home. She could sell it to the bank keeping the "usufruct", meaning that she will still live there, in return for a monthly pension. This is done quite often in Spain and France, particularly by people who do not have direct heirs but who need money to look after their needs once they have reached a certain age. I think that it is called "nuda proprietà con usufrutto" and I have found this which may be useful to explain what it is all about:
[url=http://www.ilmercatino.it/agenzie-news-archivionews.asp?id=15]IL MERCATINO - VENDITA DI NUDA PROPRIET DELLIMMOBILE E VALORE DELLUSUFRUTTO[/url]
Unfortunately it is in Italian, but you may be able to get the meaning.
In France it is quite common, it is called "viager" and many notaries are specialists in this type of transaction.
Basically, you keep the use of the house and you get a rent for as long as you live. Then, it becomes the full property of the buyer.

Out of interest Gala, any idea of what percenage??? And would Capital Gains tax rule apply???

Also of she does have property, maybe there's a room she could rent out.

Maybe too this thread - [url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/cercasi-lavoro-employment-questions/10300-self-employment.html[/url] might contain useful information.

There are some very stiff rules for social security benefits for people within the EU. I have never needed them. I've been fortunate enough in my life to never be out of work, but perhaps [I]my[/I] working life fell during the 'right period!'

I'm sorry I can't tell you more as it's not a benefit I know much about for people who are living in Italy, which is I believe, what this thread is all about. But you can read about the situation if you ARE living abroad in the EU.

This shows the details for Unemployment Benefits:
[URL="http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/living/social-security/unemployment/index_en.html"][B]>Social Security - EU Unemployment<[/B][/URL]

This clarifies the two types of Jobseekers Allowance as it is called in the UK. [url=http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/WorkingAgeBenefits/Jobseekerallowance/index.html]Jobcentre Plus -[/url]

Another thought is that you might contact Christina at [url=http://www.expatsinitaly.com]Expats in Italy - Moving to Italy and Living in Italy Information[/url]

[quote=Sally Donaldson;96861]Out of interest Gala, any idea of what percenage??? And would Capital Gains tax rule apply???

Also of she does have property, maybe there's a room she could rent out.[/quote]

Sally, I have no idea, but I think that it all depends on the age of the seller of the property. The younger you are, the smaller the pension. But there was a woman in France who sold her house when she was in her seventies and lived until the age of 114.... I think. It costed the buyer a fortune...... Well, actually, he died before she died and he was her notary.

But a better return than selling normally and living off the interest you think???

Well, but you are getting back your own capital, no interests involved. I think that it is a good alternative for someone without heirs, or with heirs who could not care less.....

Are you thinking of doing this with your place in Italy Sally? I don't see how it would be possible for someone with independant means to do this - or are you claiming benefits in the UK - which I doubt - as you would surely have to explain to the Inland Revenue how you managed to purchase and renovate a property in Italy while claiming benefits.

Have I misunderstood?

Yes, you have J+C

Not really - more like 2 + 2 = 4.

Actually, the sale of the properties under the system I described has nothing to do with the personal means of the person. Anyone can opt for this system of selling a property and getting a life usufruct and a monthly income. In France it is quite common and you can see adds in the paper offering these properties. And there are always investors interested in that kind of deal and notaries taking care of the administration of these sales. In Spain it is also becoming increasingly popular.

[quote]Yes, you have J+C [B]<~ EDITED[/B]
Last edited by Sally Donaldson; Today at 02:04 PM. [/quote]

Oh Sally, I do wish you would stop editing - it throws the thread out!

Point taken J+C. However it doesn't take much for other threads to be thrown out it seems. lol