9788 is this the start of marshall law

[quote=marco;91548]is berlusconi the new mussollini
[url=http://ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-06-13_113248189.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Soldiers to patrol Italian cities[/url]
or has society in italian cities broken down so much that they need to use the military for everyday policing??[/quote]

Apparently according to a survey just done by SKY NEWS, 82% of Italians think it is a good idea to get the troops out into the streets for extra policing duties.

I'd always assumed that the police in Italy - including the paramilitary Caribinieri - received training focusing on civil law enforcement while the training and ethos of the Italian military was more along the lines of attack, defence and, to put it crudely, killing people as efficiently as possible. I suppose if politicians simply want more uniformed bodies on the street and the Italian military aren't deployed anywhere outside Italy, then they should be capable of dealing with two fronts(Neopolitan rubbish collection and policing) without too much "over-stretch", but I do wonder of how much practical use they're going to be.

Al

[quote=barn_elms;91795]All uniformed personnel, whether police or military, who carry weapons will have received training on the use of that weapon, including its killing capability. The military will also have received training in the Geneva Convention, including the treatment of civilians, which the police may well not have. In some way demonising the military as if they are being introduced to threaten the populace rather than to augment a police effort stretched in its attempts to control criminality, is an attitude that is more likely to cause problems. Fortunately, as another contributor has pointed out, it is not widespread.[/quote]
It's not clear if you're accusing me of demonising the military. If so, that would be ironic. I don't know how long you were in uniform, but I do know I have about a decade more personal experience of the military than the vast majority of Brits born after 1940.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Italian armed forces receive some sort of training in civil policing duties; I believe that’s the norm in many countries.

Similarly, some members of the British armed forces receive training in fire-fighting and are used to provide emergency cover when there’s a Fire Brigades industrial dispute. I don’t think it’s unfairly critical to say that I’d much prefer to know that professional fire-fighters will come to help my family if there should be a fire in our house or if we’re trapped in a car after and accident. I don’t think that’s unfair criticism of the military, just a reflection of the obvious fact that we all want the people providing emergency services to be well-experienced and trained to the highest possible standards.

I didn’t serve in the Italian armed forces and so I will accept it is possible - as you seem to suggest - that the Italian Army is better trained in civil policing than the many different varieties of Italian police. If you assert it to be so, I'd even accept it's possible the Italian military may have a higher regard for civil rights than the Italian police.

Still, there are a number of very good reasons why most countries make a clear distinction between the military and the police and why - in most places - the armed forces undertake policing duties in their home country only under the gravest of circumstances. If I hadn't already accepted the fact that Italy is a very different sort of place, I would be concerned that the government apparently believes the deployment of the military on the streets is justified due to the current state of public order. As it is, it looks to me like nothing more than political posturing by a newish government which needs to be seen to be doing [I]something[/I].

But I suspect Marco and others here would rightly suggest that sort of cynical indifference is precisely the sort of attitude which allows tyranny to creep in.

Al

[quote=marco;91548]is berlusconi the new mussollini
[URL="http://ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-06-13_113248189.html"]ANSA.it - News in English - Soldiers to patrol Italian cities[/URL]
or has society in italian cities broken down so much that they need to use the military for everyday policing??[/quote]

That link's not working for me, Marco. Here in Venice, we've got the Carabinieri, the Guardia di Finanza, the Polizia Municipale, and the Polizia di Stato cruising up and down the Grand Canal constantly. Are they thinking about adding another form of police?

Not thinking about- it's a done deal.

[quote=Cat Bauer;91990]Here in Venice, we've got the Carabinieri, the Guardia di Finanza, the Polizia Municipale, and the Polizia di Stato cruising up and down the Grand Canal constantly. Are they thinking about adding another form of police?[/quote]
Please don't forget about the Guardia Forestale, the Polizia di Frontiera, the Capitaneria di Porto, the Polizia Penitenziaria, the Polizia Stradale and (my favourites) the Polizia Postale. While the peculiarities of Venice mean it would probably be difficult for even an Italian burueacrat to justify posting some of those froces there, they each and every one make a valuable contribution toward ensuring that Italy is a safe, secure and law-abiding society. :winki:

Al

Yes, we've got a bunch of those police agencies, too, Allan, and, of course the Water Police. When I first arrived in Venice ten years ago, it was a tad disconcerting to be constantly surrounded by police. Plus, we've got cameras everywhere, so we are under constant observation -- especially where I live, which is on the Grand Canal directly across from the busiest vaporetto stop, a Yankee-baseball-throw away from the mayor's office, right at Rialto. You sort of get used it.

I wrote something about the Carabinieri's musical band, Banda Musicale dell'Arma dei Carabinieri that you might find interesting:
[URL="http://venetiancat.blogspot.com/2008/03/carabinieri-at-la-fenice.html"]Venetian Cat - Venice Blog: The Carabinieri at La Fenice![/URL]

[quote=AllanMason;92019]. . . .law-abiding society. :winki:[/quote]

Although the three or four branches of the police that supposedly enforce the laws of the road seem to me to be in need of reinforcements. ;)

Stuart

I see, Stuart, that I called you Allan. I was looking at your screen name, not your signature. My apologies.

Cat

I saw this in Ansa today -
' La Russa also said Monday that the deployment of 3,000 troops in major Italian cities will be extended for another six months ''in light of the great success'' of the initiative - part of a wider government crackdown on crime'.
Does anybody know what this 'great success' is ? Have they released any figures to prove this claim ? Has anybody read any reports of criminals being caught by soldiers ?
Robert ( not Angie ).

[quote=AllanMason;92019]Please don't forget about the Guardia Forestale, the Polizia di Frontiera, the Capitaneria di Porto, the Polizia Penitenziaria, the Polizia Stradale and (my favourites) [B]the Polizia Postale[/B]. While the peculiarities of Venice mean it would probably be difficult for even an Italian burueacrat to justify posting some of those froces there, they each and every one make a valuable contribution toward ensuring that Italy is a safe, secure and law-abiding society. :winki:

Al[/quote]
far be it for me to accuse you of irony..but the polizia postale,as it turns out, appear to have done"more than any other police agency in the world for breaking international pedophile rings" this came from the head of the FBI who use the maligned polizia postale to train THEM and give consultancy

[quote=Sebastiano;97703]far be it for me to accuse you of irony..but the polizia postale,as it turns out, appear to have done"more than any other police agency in the world for breaking international pedophile rings" this came from the head of the FBI who use the maligned polizia postale to train THEM and give consultancy[/quote]
Good for them! I really know nothing about the work of the Postal Police, I simply found the concept of their existence amusing, just as I would if I were to discover that in Italy there were, say, Electricity Supply Police, Ancient Roman Monument Police or Tobacconist Police.

Someone now will, I'm sure, inform me that one or all of those police forces actually does exist.

Al

And dont forget the biggest force of all.........The Fashion Police.......a real touchy crew but soooooo last year, :winki:

[quote=AllanMason;97706]Someone now will, I'm sure, inform me that one or all of those police forces actually does exist.l[/quote]Just so long as you ring 112...

:policeman:

[quote=AllanMason;97706]Good for them! I really know nothing about the work of the Postal Police, I simply found the concept of their existence amusing, just as I would if I were to discover that in Italy there were, say, Electricity Supply Police, Ancient Roman Monument Police or Tobacconist Police.

Someone now will, I'm sure, inform me that one or all of those police forces actually does exist.

Al[/quote]
I should like to remember the full details but can't so please accept the true story went something like this. A terrorist plot was discovered in Perugia in 2007 due to the tireless efforts of the Polizia Postale (they seem to have a wide brief). The hours and hours of overtime put in by a few men, could not be paid as there was insufficient funds, never the less they continued their persuit of the terrorists involved, apparently it was a thankless task but arrests were made.

trying to STAMP out crime everywhere

I don't think the polizia postale have an awful lot to do with stamps or letters any more - they are the chaps who nowadays tap phones and sift through mobile text messages and voice calls, police the internet etc. etc. Not that they are the only ones tapping phones - just that they are usually the only ones authorised to do so!

[quote=Angie and Robert;97700]I saw this in Ansa today -
' La Russa also said Monday that the deployment of 3,000 troops in major Italian cities will be extended for another six months ''in light of the great success'' of the initiative - part of a wider government crackdown on crime'.
Does anybody know what this 'great success' is ? Have they released any figures to prove this claim ? Has anybody read any reports of criminals being caught by soldiers ?
Robert ( not Angie ).[/quote]
So do I take it that no one has seen anything to suggest that the deployment of troops on the streets has had any effect on crime levels ? If this is the case then can I assume that it was just a piece of empty political posturing by the new government with no real practical results ( as I always suspected it was ) .
Sorry to butt in on your deliberations as to the exact duties of various police forces, but I did think this thread was about the decision to put troops on the streets to combat crime !
Robert ( not Angie ) .

[quote] If this is the case then can I assume that it was just a piece of empty political posturing by the new government with no real practical results ( as I always suspected it was ) . [/quote]
Exactly. Having gained office by whipping up the public's fear of immigrants and Roms, they now present themselves as our saviour, though in reality they've done nothing.

How very Italian of them! :smile:

But seriously, are you saying the Italian public had no fear of immigrants and Roms before the Government took this stance? I don't think so - there is a real (if imagined) fear amongst many people. There are also hierarchy levels within the different immigrant races in Italy - some are more feared/despised than others - very few are welcomed - and non are trusted - with perhaps the exception of one.

I think that Noma's point was more one of the whipping up of fear levels for political reasons (as with the use of Alitalia to get the nationalistic feelings racing) and "win" the last election. You are, of course, right about saying that many Italians have a fear of immigrants. This is based on rather firmly (and realistically) held fears of physical attack. The north has suffered from the fear of "home invasion" attacks, based on the actual frequency of such attacks - there have been several close to us over the past couple of years. The fear is not only based in fantasy - it has roots in reality as well. It was a very simple move to fan those fears into a far greater intensity than even Bossi had managed to, despite his massive duro, over the years. After all, dott. Berlusconi has the Italian media in his pocket - alongside his proverbial sunshine!

[quote=Noble;97738]I should like to remember the full details but can't so please accept the true story went something like this. A terrorist plot was discovered in Perugia in 2007 due to the tireless efforts of the Polizia Postale (they seem to have a wide brief). The hours and hours of overtime put in by a few men, could not be paid as there was insufficient funds, never the less they continued their persuit of the terrorists involved, apparently it was a thankless task but arrests were made.[/quote]
i'm very suprised at the " hardly hidden" groniad/left wing lines of thought that this thread has "uncovered"..(if you like G.Brown so much go and live at number 10) this country may just be starting to address some of it's "atavic" problems after 60 years (+) ie. since the war. These concern organized crime,uncontrolled immigration,trade unions,state driven or owned and controlled enterprises ,public financing of dozens of futile journals and newspapers and many other themes.For the first time (since the war) it has been possible to elect ( without doubt and an absolute majority) a right wing government that is doing this.Indipendently of the person of the current prime minister who one may easily dislike,there is no doubt that the government is bringing winds of change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,which is not the same as saying it's all wonderful but it is change.In this context ( and whether Guardian readers like it or not) the presence of troops is overtly a physological message to the nation and is PERCEIVED as such.nobody is under any illusion that suddenly crime stops, it's a CONCEPT of going towards a " zero tollerance" scenario at least for micro criminality in the centres of some of the larger cities which made life for residents and tourists a like rather unpleasant.Recently they interviewed people on the street in the centre of Milano (including old age pensioners) who said for the first time in years they felt easy about going out shopping in the market and streets etc everyone one else seemed very happy with the new "scene"...it's very easy for some /many of our left wing forum members to start on using "big words" like demrocacy to start decrying these new moves on the part of the govenment..(yes, i have finished the rant!)

Sebastiano, I think that I follow your thinking a little and I tend to agree with some of what you have said. Certainly, the additional number of "uniforms" on the city streets will have made a difference to the levels of petty crime taking place. Pickpockets will be very wary of conducting their "business" with uniformed officers close by. Perhaps, the confusion for some is the tendency of Brits to see that the army force on the streets is not any more intimidating that any of the other police forces - guns are carried by all, after all. Similarly, it seems to be missed that the army are not able to actually arrest anyone - only support the arresting authorities. This is not easy for someone living their lives in the UK to fully understand, given the nature of the unarmed police that patrol the streets of the UK (usually).

Of course, by attacking the Gruniad readership that may, or may not, be reading this, you do yourself no favours, given that the readers of the Torygraph will be fed the same sort of nonsense about the role of the army on the streets of Italian cities. The point is, I feel, that the troops evident on the streets of the cities are acting as an additional deterrent - not something that can be quantified or turned into a report without the addition of plenty of "spin" - something that dott Berlusconi would have no problem with should the need arise, of course.

So, where are we? We have a few troops on the city streets that have helped reduce some of the petty crime. We have a city population that feel a little better protected by the additional "uniforms" on the streets. We have not really lost anything, save for the respect and understanding of the foreign press (who, admittedly, always like to illustrate how the other "foreigners" are doing everything wrong) and a placated Lega as well as a calmed AN. In other words, a "result"! Of course, one has to accept that for this result to work, it is necessary for an utter disregard for how the rest of the world actually view what is happening.

I said all that without mentioning Mussolini once, eh! Trains on time...mafia wiped out in Sicilia... etc. I await the time when dott Berlusconi conducts his political rallies on the run. :winki:

[QUOTE=Sebastiano;97970] change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,QUOTE]

When were these ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ then ? To my recollection the stagnation was caused by the fact that the main element in all the governments since 1945 up to the 80’s was the Christian Democrats ( e.g conservatives ).
When did the issue of what papers people read come into the discussion ? I don’t think anyone on this thread has said they are a Guardian reader have they ? ( excuse me I think your prejudices are showing ).
However it was interesting to hear that people in Milan feel safer . This not to be sniffed at but still begs the question as to whether the army have prevented crime or arrested any criminals. Just interested.
The sniping comment about people returning to live in the UK if they don’t like Italy’s current politics is a bit crass. If we are not allowed to give opinions about these things then what is the point of this forum. If you were here during the ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ Sebastiano, I don’t doubt you would have let your opinions be known , but did anyone suggest you go backto where you came from if you didn’t like it ?
Counter-rant over.
Robert ( not Angie )

[quote]But seriously, are you saying the Italian public had no fear of immigrants and Roms before the Government took this stance?[/quote]
No, read what was written:
"Having gained office by whipping up the public's fear of immigrants and Roms, they now present themselves as our saviour, though in reality they've done nothing."
They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain.

I did read what was written by you Noma - and as much as you would like to have a little dig by attempting to make me look as if I had not read your post correctly - you will have to get up even earlier than you did to catch me out - because you didn't write "They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain." within your first post - did you? :bigergrin:

Now, rather than attempting to persuade opinion that I am illiterate - please get off my case until you have something worthwhile to discuss with me. :yes:

[quote]you didn't write "They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain." within your first post - did you[/quote]
No, because that added explanation was only necessary for you. Nardini was somehow able to understand the original post:
[quote]I think that Noma's point was more one of the whipping up of fear levels for political reasons (as with the use of Alitalia to get the nationalistic feelings racing) and "win" the last election. You are, of course, right about saying that many Italians have a fear of immigrants. This is based on rather firmly (and realistically) held fears of physical attack. The north has suffered from the fear of "home invasion" attacks, based on the actual frequency of such attacks - there have been several close to us over the past couple of years. The fear is not only based in fantasy - it has roots in reality as well. It was a very simple move to fan those fears into a far greater intensity than even Bossi had managed to, despite his massive duro, over the years. After all, dott. Berlusconi has the Italian media in his pocket - alongside his proverbial sunshine![/quote]

[QUOTE=Sebastiano;97970 For the first time (since the war) it has been possible to elect ( without doubt and an absolute majority) a right wing government that is doing this.... bringing winds of change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,[/QUOTE]

Sebastiano and I evidently live in parallel universes. In my universe, since Italy's first elections after the war (in 1948) there have been approximately seven years (out of sixty) of left wing (-ish?) governments. And in my universe, seven years does not add up to one decade, let alone decades. (I do not count in these figures the historically rather short period in which Craxi and the Italian Socialist Party were minority partners in coalitions numerically dominated by the indubitably conservative and right wing Christian democrats.)

Also in my universe, the longest-lived Italian government since 1948 was the 2001 to 2006 right wing government of Silvio Berlusconi. The winds of change blowing in this period do not appear to have been dramatic, although a few changes had interesting effects - such as those to the electoral laws which made it difficult for the short-lived Prodi government to win and maintain an effective working majority afterwards.

So who precisely is responsible for all this "stagnation and indulgence"?

Bringing the army onto the streets and allowing mayors to introduce local laws against prostitution and micro-crime make for an excellent press (especially if you own most of it), for good television (especially if you control seven eighths of it), and thence for improvements in public perceptions of safety (if not in reality?). But I still look forward to seeing the enactment of measures which might offer the possibility of a genuine transformation in Italy's efficiency and competitiveness.

[quote=Noma;98122]No, because that added explanation was only necessary for you. Nardini was somehow able to understand the original post:[/quote]

What a pity Nardini doesn't do all the talking on your behalf Noma - it would give you a chance to get some treatment. :laughs:

the statistics would appear to bear you out bosco...however the facts of life here are really somewhat more complicated ... because the national governments did or were unable to do anything much due to massive communist control of all public administration and the judiciary,infrastructure and the work place... and so on and so forth... so whoever ruled had no power to make change as there was always a strike if it did not suit....

virtually all governments that were formed were based on very badly thought out coalitions... in a sense set up to enable a government to be formed and so disparate in its views that nothing ever got done.... apart from the fact that they generally agreed to stay together until their pension rights were set in stone and then collapsed...

add to that the fact that Italy has had virtually continuous civil war either with organised crime and or anarchist movements with death tolls and fear levels outweighing that say of NI of the past ... and the effects easily seen on the economy there of that problem ... you can also have some sympathy for past ineffectualness

since the last two big names in Italian politics took over despite not really liking either of them much... Italy has crawled slowly to a somewhat more democratic reality... with national governments beginning to take control... you could feel somewhat sorry for the last Prodi government in the sense that it did take a stance to stop protected jobs... did argue with the unions... did face up to the magistrates and if they had not had a communist coalition party to rely on they most probably would have made good progress.... ok i know they did not bring him down...it was more a cause of a criminal being found out... however they were getting to the point that there members were telling them off for continuimng to support the Prodi government programme....

so much as i have a habit of ranting on i think sebastainos rant is justified in the sense that it points to a closer view of the reality of life in Italy rather than the cold historical records

i say bring on the rants as they generally get points out and increase debate ... far better than links to facts and or foreign news reports... as in your weighted answer ...

finally troops on the street have worked for the Italians who are feeling safer in areas that before they did not... its much the same as anywhere where putting uniforms in high profile allows you to think you are safer... many of you being frequent flyer's should understand this as the last time i went through an airport it was bristling with automatic weapons... to what purpose... they are there to make you feel safe

a waffling and rambling post ... sorry ... hope it makes some sense

as regards the prostitution measures ... i think its also fair to say that many Italians have seen their neighborhoods turned into open air sex shops... they have been arresting them and moving them on for many years without much effect... i think the new law that also takes into account the client participation will have a marked effect on street level/kerb crawling type behaviour as car numbers are taken and fines are being sent to homes...

Re the new prostitution law....it has done what the local Carabinieri could not, cleared prostitutes displaying their services along various main roads around Perugia. Those poor, scantily dressed girls won't be out there freezing this winter. The Italians we know accept prostitution as an age old business but applaud the new law to fine the Customers.

[quote=marco;91548]is berlusconi the new mussollini
[URL="http://ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-06-13_113248189.html"][/URL][/quote]

Yes he is...do you still have any doubts about it?
Just have a look to tv programs and you won't have any..

:nah:I think policy is not the way to remove the Mafia but just to apparently combat it. The thing is, "has anybody wondered why the Italian government sent soldiers in roads instead of facing the problem with real interest?" Do you think Mafia's men are so stupid to make their crimes publicly, along the roads?

The fact remains, Nardini and others were able to understand the post- you are the sole complainant. Instead of simply recognizing that you misunderstood, you posted the following:
[quote]I did read what was written by you Noma - and as much as you would like to have a little dig by attempting to make me look as if I had not read your post correctly - you will have to get up even earlier than you did to catch me out - because you didn't write "They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain." within your first post - did you?

Now, rather than attempting to persuade opinion that I am illiterate - please get off my case until you have something worthwhile to discuss with me.:yes: [/quote]

Followed by the equally obnoxious:
[quote]What a pity Nardini doesn't do all the talking on your behalf Noma - it would give you a chance to get some treatment. :laughs: [/quote]

Where are the moderators on this forum?

[quote=Noma;98415]
Where are the moderators on this forum?[/quote]

They get up even earlier than you Noma!

I did not misunderstand you post - or your intentions - so please, lets agree not to discuss it further and hopefully we can get along just fine by acknowledging that neither one of us agrees with the other. :laughs:

[quote=Angie and Robert;97984][QUOTE=Sebastiano;97970] change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,QUOTE]

When were these ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ then ? To my recollection the stagnation was caused by the fact that the main element in all the governments since 1945 up to the 80’s was the Christian Democrats ( e.g conservatives ).
When did the issue of what papers people read come into the discussion ? I don’t think anyone on this thread has said they are a Guardian reader have they ? ( excuse me I think your prejudices are showing ).
However it was interesting to hear that people in Milan feel safer . This not to be sniffed at but still begs the question as to whether the army have prevented crime or arrested any criminals. Just interested.
The sniping comment about people returning to live in the UK if they don’t like Italy’s current politics is a bit crass. If we are not allowed to give opinions about these things then what is the point of this forum. If you were here during the ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ Sebastiano, I don’t doubt you would have let your opinions be known , but did anyone suggest you go backto where you came from if you didn’t like it ?
Counter-rant over.
Robert ( not Angie )[/quote]
The Italian Christian democratic party was always historically a coaltion within itself having a rainbow of "correnti" (ie. of differing lines of political thought which ranged from overtly left wing to quite definitely right wing)as early as the late sixties and always for the fear of the increasing vote for the Italian comunist party the D.C played to this presumed risk, appeasing what was seen as an increasing threat to deomocracy in Italy.Already by the seventies trade unions,much local government,
and many other entities were firmly in the hands of the left wing controlling to all extent and purposes not only much of public life but certainly what were then considered the "working classes".Political activity became a constant war of arttrition and appeasement hence the continual collapse of the governments which succeeded one after another,cruddy put together coalitions whose only real scope was to act as a bulwark against the comunist threat.Ending with the attempts by the"left wing" christian democrat Moro who wanted to take the appeasement policy line to the enth power proposing even a political alliance/coaltion with the P.C.I.which promptly sparked off the political "killing season" of the so called "anni di piombo".it's worth adding that in all those years the right wing had never succeeded in ousting it's own political skeletons ie. it's traceable history back to Fascism, and as a consequence never acheived the political "acceptabilty" necessary to be elected to run the country.So ,in a way you were right, yes there was the DC but it was a far more intricated political scenario than that seemed on face value.Now more or less forty years on with the right wing out of it's political ghetto,the war now a remote memory for the few,it may be possible for the country to start to revise a myriad of themes/insitutions ,affront previously untouchable social corporativism with reforms.This process will inevitably upset not a few people as strongholds of unjustified and unjustifiable priviledges will be touched.Personally i don't consider the current prime minister as having the political stature, the ethical qualities nor the acumen to acheive this,nevertheless the result of the last elections proved to be a landslide in favour of change away from the matrix which has characterised Italian politics for the last forty years (decades indeed) freeing the country of a mass of minor political factions whose main interest was only their own perpetuation. only time will tell if these aims can be acheived even if only to a minor extent by the present government.Stuff like soldiers in the streets is all minor details in comparison.

[quote=juliancoll;98424]I did not misunderstand you post.[/quote]
Actually, you did. No one else had a problem understanding my post's meaning "whipping up fear levels for political reasons". Only you misunderstood (and continue to delude yourself) my post to say: "the Italian public had no fear of immigrants and Roms before the Government took this stance".

hi all i dont understand all the polictcal implecations of this thread our off the goverment , but i have just returned from a weekend in napoli .What a improvement i saw no gangs of gypsey pick pockets IE preganant woman , granny , and small boy to do a runner whith your wallet , isaw onley three well dressed begers outside the churchs and one small boy asking poletely for money .THIS surly must be an improvement if only in the short term it made our trip to naples more fun , and to se solders on every corner we felt much safer