10519 training my ear to hear Italian

My mother mentioned the other day that she too has the same difficulty in France despite having lived there for over twenty years.

I would be very interested to hear members' solutions therefore.

Many say they find listening to song lyrics helpful in tuning their ear in, especially if you can have the words in front of you to follow. Although the language used is not necessarily conversational it can help to get to grips with pronunciation etc. Make sure you choose a singer who is easy to follow such as Eros Ramazotti or Zucchero, or any others you enjoy listening to. Also watching a film you know well but in Italian - if you already know the plot you can concentrate on the actual language. Subtitles are not always helpful as they tend to summarize the script rather than transcribe it word for word.

I don't think there is any method apart from listening to spoken Italian to get better at understanding spoken Italian! You could listen to the radio (Radio Tre, when it isn't playing music, usually has exquisitely spoken Italian: Il Sole 24ore station has faster spoken but intelligible Italian: Radios 1 and 2 have more colloquial rapid fire stuff frequently with a heavy regional accent: most of the commercial stations are completely unintelligible even to Italians!)

Or watch the TV - with some programmes (eg Terapia d'Urgenza) you can turn the subtitles for the deaf on (if your set does teletext, usually call up page 777 if I'm not mistaken) - and this way you can follow a word for word written equivalent. Also watch stuff that you know about - football or motor-racing, golf, whatever, because you'll be able to guess what the commentator will say next.

[quote=Charles Phillips;97972]I don't think there is any method apart from listening to spoken Italian to get better at understanding spoken Italian! You could listen to the radio (Radio Tre, when it isn't playing music, usually has exquisitely spoken Italian: Il Sole 24ore station has faster spoken but intelligible Italian: Radios 1 and 2 have more colloquial rapid fire stuff frequently with a heavy regional accent: most of the commercial stations are completely unintelligible even to Italians!)

Or watch the TV - with some programmes (eg Terapia d'Urgenza) you can turn the subtitles for the deaf on (if your set does teletext, usually call up page 777 if I'm not mistaken) - and this way you can follow a word for word written equivalent. Also watch stuff that you know about - football or motor-racing, golf, whatever, because you'll be able to guess what the commentator will say next.[/quote]

Whilst I agree 100% with Charles I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that Tessa was not in Italy full time, so Italian tv and radio may not be such a straight forward option.

You should be able to get RAI on your TV at home - if you have cable or satellite, that is. I was able to "keep up" with things back home when I had a month in Australia a couple of years ago. It wasn't "on air" 24 hour a day though, so you will need to check out the situation where you live. If you are in Italy, though, just go out and listen to people. Supermarkets, bars - all are good. For TV, I, personally, would recommend LA7 (not dott Berlusconi's!).

[quote=anne2;97985]Whilst I agree 100% with Charles I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that Tessa was not in Italy full time, so Italian tv and radio may not be such a straight forward option.[/quote]

I am in Italy full time now after being in the uk for the summer. We are now living in Abruzzo full time hence the desire to understand everything! I am now watching Poirot in Italian to try and practice. Thanks to all

I speak several languages and teach 4 of them but even I have trouble 'tuning in' if I have been speaking one and then need to listen to another - even my English is affected and it can take a few seconds to realize someone is speaking English on the radio if I've previously been listening to Italian. One of my techniques at school is to put some audio of the language on during the change over between lesson so I can 'tune in'. Another problem can be that if you are busy thinking about what you are going to say, you don't really listen. My OH does the talking and I do the listening most of the time as a double act. I'm sure, living in Italy, your listening skills will develop very quickly and i endorse the suggestions to watch as much TV and listen to as much radio as possible. Even if you don't understand everything, it helps you tune in - I used to watch old American movies with little plot and I still listen to Radio Kiss Kiss whilst driving

[quote=tessa myers;97988]I am in Italy full time now after being in the uk for the summer. We are now living in Abruzzo full time hence the desire to understand everything! I am now watching Poirot in Italian to try and practice. Thanks to all[/quote]

You will probably get caught out by the dialect, which is widely spoken out here in Abruzzo.

I find it almost impossible to understand some of the older generation - but so do other Italians!
:laughs:

[quote=F Bower;97991]My OH does the talking and I do the listening most of the time as a double act. I'm sure, living in Italy, your listening skills will develop very quickly and i endorse the suggestions to watch as much TV and listen to as much radio as possible. Even if you don't understand everything, it helps you tune in - I used to watch old American movies with little plot and I still listen to Radio Kiss Kiss whilst driving[/quote]

My OH has a theory that quiet people who are used to listening, learn languages better than talkative people (who he says rarely listen). He picks up on small things and I am often corrected....! An enjoyable way of learning (coupled with more serious study) is to buy the Montalbano detective books in English. Buy the DVD's in Italian with subtitles, to match the books you have. Read the book and then watch the DVD with subtitles. Once you have watched the DVD a few times you hopefully will learn a bit more Italian and yes a bit of Sicilian dialect thrown in. An excellent way to pass cold winter nights looking at sunny Sicilia too.

Hi
Another way is to try to not think about how you are going to reply.
MFBLOH has a lot more Italian then I do, but less understanding, and we both agree, that the above can and does work.......but as she is female its far harder for her to do.

Heading for the cloakroom to get my coat

Oh yes that rings a bell so to speak Noble ..... lol

"Heading for the cloakroom to get my coat"

What!!! Not again!!! lol

As a teacher I find it's listening my students struggle with. With speaking you can select what you say: thus I can bluff in French as my accent isn't too bad although my vocabulary is small. You can use paraphrase, discourse markers etc. - none of which applies to listening where you don't have time to reflect on what's been said. Try to just get the gist and not understand every word - I wish I could get some of my students to do that.

I bought a few teaching books on my recent visit to the UK. Significantly one of them was on teaching listening. Ultimately it's just exposure, and structure it a bit as well - the idea above is a good one and again I wish my students similarly got more exposure to English out of class.

i dont know if it will help you but i used to like using the BBC language section when revising my german just to hear people speaking the language, saying simple sentences and trying to pick out the words, just listen and write down what you think they said then check the answer, i also like people have said started watching Bundesliga so i could hear the German commentators speaking and listning to German radio helped just to hear again.

the same applys for Italian i tried to do that and now i can understand pretty much what there saying , normaly "rete rete rete,gol gol gol di milan!!!!" :D

I find that the best way to 'hear' Italian is to speak it! Especially in places such as a bar, supermarket, etc. If you don't get the gist of what someone is saying to you, simply ask them to repeat it. I found Italians most willing to speak slower, rephrase, etc. when they notice a foreigner has not followed what they have been saying. They're usually grateful that someone is making the effort to speak Italian rather than expecting them to speak English.

Just found this the video of a song I have loved for ages for some reason of Elisa Ligabue with the lyrics on-screen. Perfetto.

PS Also worth watching for the sexy guy at the end!!!

[ame=http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=vzHZKz9wPSI]YouTube - Elisa-Ligabue ,,,,,,,,,,,Gli Ostacoli del Cuore[/ame]

Here he is again ladies.

[[ame]http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=gVCl3_R_igI&feature=related[/ame]

Erm - the "sexy guy" at the end of your first video (and in the video above) is (Luciano) Ligabue Sal, the woman singing in the first video is Elisa Toffoli.

I realised that afterwards J+C, Cheers though for the clarification.

Hopefully on you tube there are some videos worth watching or more precisely listening!
One way to acquire oral skills is also to enrich your own lexis knowledge. It is likely that the more words you know, the easier is to recognize them in conversation - the result should be a better whole comprehension.
That's why a half of foreign language books are lexis based - the other half is poorly grammar based. A good idea would be to train yourself on a particular topic.

In the following video, the lesson is based on time expressions. Good luck!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS2U5wYz59Q&feature=related[/ame]

[quote=Cristiana;100362]That's why a half of foreign language books are lexis based - the other half is poorly grammar based. A good idea would be to train yourself on a particular topic. [/quote]
Sorry, Cristiana? What are you trying to say here?

[quote=Cristiana;100362]
One way to acquire oral skills is also to enrich your own lexis knowledge. It is likely that the more words you know, the easier is to recognize them in conversation - the result should be a better whole comprehension.
That's why a half of foreign language books are lexis based - the other half is poorly grammar based. A good idea would be to train yourself on a particular topic.[/quote]

Dear Nardini,
I thought that a translation in italian could help you,

"Un metodo per acquisire abilità orali è quello di arricchire la conoscenza del lessico. Più parole si conoscono e più facile sarà riconoscerle all'orale - il risultato sarà una buona comprensione di insieme.
Ecco perchè la metà dei libri sulle lingue straniere è basato sul lessico mentre l'altra metà si limita alle basi grammaticali. Sarebbe una buona idea allenarsi su un argomento specifico."
Nel video che segue, la lezione è basata sulle Espressioni temporali. Buona fortuna!"

However, a good way to understand a text is to take it in [I]context[/I].
If you need more explanations, ask me and I'll be glad to give you.

I decided to put it in other words, in order to be as more clear as possible for you:
"There are a lot of books about Foreign Languages that are based on the grammar while some other widen lexis."

Ready for the next question.

[quote=Cristiana;100371]Dear Nardini,
I thought that a translation in italian could help you,.[/quote]
Carissima Cristiana,

Indeed, it may very well help me. However, the point I am making is that on an English language web site, it is far more important that YOU make yourself understood, correctly, in English for the benefit of everyone that uses this website that are all English speakers...

[quote=Cristiana;100376]"There are a lot of books about Foreign Languages that are based on the grammar while some other widen lexis.".[/quote]Not quite there yet, I'm afraid...

A clue: Check the word "lessico" for a better translation.

Anybody interested have look at 'The Lexical Approach' by Michael Lewis, Thomson 2002
ISBN 0-906717-99-X

The first in a list of key principles:

[I]Language consists of grammaticalised lexis, not lexicalised grammar.[/I]

[quote=sueflauto;100386]Anybody interested have look at 'The Lexical Approach' by Michael Lewis, Thomson 2002
ISBN 0-906717-99-X

The first in a list of key principles:

[I]Language consists of grammaticalised lexis, not lexicalised grammar.[/I][/quote]

An interesting defence, Sue, but not one that the vast majority of native English speakers will have a clue about. This is why it is so important for the people running this place to actually understand English, "as she is spoken". Not as taught in university to foreign students. I hope you understand my point, rather than think that the use of language should be an elitist issue.

No value judgement there (or a defence) - just what it said on the tin... 'anybody interested':-)

A chap named Michael Halliday proposes a useful dichotomy of spoken and written language which actually entails a shift in paradigm: while linguistic theory posits the superiority of the spoken language over written language (as the former is the origin, comes naturally, and thus precedes the written language), or the written over the spoken (for the same reasons: the written language being the highest form of rudimentary speech), Halliday states they are two entirely different entities. In short, he claims that speech is grammatically complex - while writing is lexically dense. In other words, a sentence such as “a cousin of mine, the one who I was talking about the other day –the one who lives in Brighton, not the one in Birmingham – called me up yesterday to tell me the very same story about Mary, who…” is most likely to be found in conversation, not as a newspaper headline. “Prime Minister vows reconciliation”, on the other hand, would be a typical news headline.

Halliday’s work suggests something radically different: language behaves in registers. D. Biber, author of the Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English, worked with four (these are not exhaustive, merely examplary): conversation, literature, news, academic. These four registers clearly highlight distinctions within language use which would not be clear through a “grammatical” approach. Not surprisingly, each register favours the use of different words and structures: whereas news headline stories, for example, are grammatically simple, conversational anecdotes are full of lexical repetition. The lexis of the news, however, can be quite dense, just as the grammar of speech can be incredibly complicated.

Of course, we could just use words that are understood by "normal" English mother tongue speakers, such as "vocabulary", or "words". it surely makes a great deal of sense when not writing on a sub editors chat site?

Going slightly off topic but to illustrate a point.

I watched a fascinating programme recently about the sinking of the Mary Rose.

Skeletal remains had been found of the men manning the gun ports and also of the officer who was in command of them.

DNA analysis showed that the crew members were of foreign origin, whereas the officer was English.

It is thought that some Spanish sailors, who were shipwrecked off the coast of Cornwall, were subsequently drafted into the English Navy to utilise their seagoing skills.

Unfortunately this ended with the crew members and the command speaking different languages and it was surmised that this may well have caused confusion in the emergency where the gun ports were left open as the ship turned about, which led to the sinking of the pride of the English Navy.

Never a good idea to have those giving the orders unable to communicate with those expected to follow them.:smile:

[quote=Nardini;100394]A chap named Michael Halliday proposes a useful dichotomy of spoken and written language which actually entails a shift in paradigm: while linguistic theory posits the superiority of the spoken language over written language (as the former is the origin, comes naturally, and thus precedes the written language), or the written over the spoken (for the same reasons: the written language being the highest form of rudimentary speech), Halliday states they are two entirely different entities. In short, he claims that speech is grammatically complex - while writing is lexically dense. In other words, a sentence such as “a cousin of mine, the one who I was talking about the other day –the one who lives in Brighton, not the one in Birmingham – called me up yesterday to tell me the very same story about Mary, who…” is most likely to be found in conversation, not as a newspaper headline. “Prime Minister vows reconciliation”, on the other hand, would be a typical news headline.

Halliday’s work suggests something radically different: language behaves in registers. D. Biber, author of the Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English, worked with four (these are not exhaustive, merely examplary): conversation, literature, news, academic. These four registers clearly highlight distinctions within language use which would not be clear through a “grammatical” approach. Not surprisingly, each register favours the use of different words and structures: whereas news headline stories, for example, are grammatically simple, conversational anecdotes are full of lexical repetition. The lexis of the news, however, can be quite dense, just as the grammar of speech can be incredibly complicated.

Of course, we could just use words that are understood by "normal" English mother tongue speakers, such as "vocabulary", or "words". it surely makes a great deal of sense when not writing on a sub editors chat site?[/quote]

Yer wot? You iz getting very close to me puttin' ya in da naughty corner again Nardy - yu iz far too purr - purdan - perdant, erm - fussy. Giz a break lad! :bigergrin:

blame wikipedia, they're the real culprits ...

ps - tried to keep schtum but failed ... what a glowing testament to tolerance & fair play this thread has become.

It's difficult to do better than this, IMO. (There is a quiz in there somewhere if anybody fancies positing a Lexus)

[url=http://www.economist.com/research/styleguide/]Research tools: information in depth | The Economist | Economist.com[/url]

[quote=pigro;100425]blame wikipedia, they're the real culprits ...

ps - tried to keep schtum but failed ... what a glowing testament to tolerance & fair play this thread has become.[/quote]Very close, Graeme, very close indeed. Now see if you can play the "sub-editor" game and find the variances. Or just spot the point, even.

P.S. I loved your "ps", by the way... :laughs:

[quote=Charles Phillips;100428]It's difficult to do better than this, IMO. (There is a quiz in there somewhere if anybody fancies positing a Lexus)

[url=http://www.economist.com/research/styleguide/]The Economist | Writing Style Guide[/url][/quote]
Indeed, Charles. Might I suggest, however, that the best starting point for those of us for whom English is not our first language that the [URL="http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/"]Plain English Campaign [/URL] style sheet would be a rather better first step though? In fact, Occam's Razor aside, it is the best style guide for us all, really, I think (unless you earn a crust by writing words for money, of course!)

[quote=Nardini;100697]Very close, Graeme, very close indeed. [/quote]
hey, you remember my Christian name from our old correspondence, i'm touched (alas, if you ever told me yours, I've forgotten it .. may dust out my old PM archive later on, but meantime my apologies).
[quote=Nardini;100697]Now see if you can play the "sub-editor" game and find the variances.[/quote]
no thanks, I've just slapped some emulsion on the wall, and I'm busy observing its gradual dehydration :-)
[quote=Nardini;100697] Or just spot the point, even.[/quote]
the point is excruciatingly clear (to a native English speaker anyway). It's just being made in too patronising a manner for my liking. I've long been a beneficiary of people from other cultures being willing & able to converse with me in English, and I hate to see anyone being belittled for their efforts in that department, regardless of style/substance. I thought that being married to an Italian, you of all people may have been more magnanimous on that front? Anyway, basta. I've belatedly learned that there's no mileage in fighting other peoples battles for them on here, so I'll leave you to play pygmalion in peace,.professor 'iggins.

Well said Pigro - and we all know what happens if we pander to the Pygmalion effect - don't we? :yes:

[quote=pigro;100715]hey, you remember my Christian name from our old correspondence[/quote]No Graeme, you never did sign any of your PM's to me with your name - but you used to sign all your posts, remember?
[quote=pigro;100715]...the point is excruciatingly clear (to a native English speaker anyway). It's just being made in too patronising a manner for my liking. I've long been a beneficiary of people from other cultures being willing & able to converse with me in English, and I hate to see anyone being belittled for their efforts in that department, regardless of style/substance. I thought that being married to an Italian, you of all people may have been more magnanimous on that front? [/quote]
Point well missed.

The point is that the person to whom I am directing my comments is the the "ruler of the roost" here and the fact that she is Italian is no more to do with her status than the fact that she is a she. I feel that if someone is going to stamp their authority onto a conversation, they should, at the very least, actually understand the nuances of that conversation - and be able to respond in the same vein. Trying to conflate the "king pin" of the moment with a "normal" poster is erroneous on your part.

Pigro, I have avoided confrontation with you up until now. I have averted my gaze - or turned the other cheek to your barbs, but, really, how long are you going to keep this up? You don't even know me, so why the personal attacks all the time? You are just being silly.

Whoa Nardy - stop being so narky! Pigro isn't the only one to think in this way, perhaps it's just that others cant be bothered/are too worried about a confrontation/don't fully understand (due to not reading everything - not through lack of intelligence) to post their opinions.

I understand you and Pigro have fallen out over something or other and that is nothing to do with me or anyone else, but your posts towards Cristiana ARE offensive and should STOP.

You have no right to stamp YOUR views as being correct on this forum - you are not employed by Poundbury - you are not the authority on language or on how people should communicate. You are becoming intimidating and patronising with your crusade and perhaps you should reconsider your stance. I am sure there are many of us here that could only ever hope to match Crisitianas command of a second language and while you may have the advantage of an advanced understanding of Italian, perhaps from being married to an Italian and living in Italy, there are many of us that do not.

There are many people on this forum who, although Crisitana does often express herself in pidgin English, fully understand every word she says - simly because we put our "Italian" heads on when reading her posts. We read her posts with the understanding that Italians express things in many different ways by using words native English speakers would not use.

This is a forum about ITALY - it is not a forum for nit picking and grammatically correct useage of any language, be that Italian or English and I would certainly like to see far more use of Italian here as it can only ever help to improve everyones understanding of the country we all claim to love.

I also believe that by trying to correct someones mistakes in the way you are attempting to do will only make them withdraw and the intimidation and pressure felt to perform will mask the true personality of the person striving to improve. You will kill their spirit.

There are many here who know only too well my dislike for some of the past administration decisions taken on this forum and I say none of this because I am newly converted, but only because I hope you will reconsider the path you are taking here. The majority of your previous posts are excellent and so, the position of head witch hunter does not suit you.

Leave that job to others far more qualified. :bigergrin:

[quote=Nardini;100719]No Graeme, you never did sign any of your PM's to me with your name - but you used to sign all your posts, remember?[/quote]Ah yes, I'd quite forgotten that, my apologies again.

[quote=Nardini;100719] Point well missed.

The point is that the person to whom I am directing my comments is the the "ruler of the roost" here and the fact that she is Italian is no more to do with her status than the fact that she is a she. I feel that if someone is going to stamp their authority onto a conversation, they should, at the very least, actually understand the nuances of that conversation - and be able to respond in the same vein. Trying to conflate the "king pin" of the moment with a "normal" poster is erroneous on your part.[/quote]
I'd have to agree with you - in a situation where some moderation or admin issue was being mishandled due to lack of understandng of the nuances. I spoke up in this thread because that isn't the case. All Cristiana was doing was trying to promote discussion, and i took her input at face value, just as (say) when Ronald posted something about Sicily or whatever.

[quote=Nardini;100719] Pigro, I have avoided confrontation with you up until now. I have averted my gaze - or turned the other cheek to your barbs, but, really, how long are you going to keep this up? You don't even know me, so why the personal attacks all the time? You are just being silly.[/quote]
Well you know the answer to that as well as I do. I've managed > 2000 posts on here, many of them confrontational but only one ever got reported. Had you had the balls just to PM me about that I'd have happily retracted the post at issue (as it was a throwaway joke which on reflection I shouldn't have made - as you rightly point out, "I don't know you"). Your style of being very forthright with others whom you disagree with here, but running to teacher when I overstep your 'invisible line' grated upon me, and has made me examine your input more carefully since that time, looking for flaws. Yes, you're right again, that's silly. I guess I just lack 'closure' on the original incident - you, the mod's and the admin dictated its outcome. The moderation comments left in place of my deleted post made me sound like some kind of wierdo, and none of you responded to my PM's at the time. If I get ignored I get pissed off. Hope that's clear enough?

Oh well, at least its off my chest now. Hopefully no need for our paths to cross again.

Julian - I'm avoiding grazies, as it just leads to tribalism, but I think you've expressed very well exactly the point that made me get involved here (despite, not due to, my prior history with nardini). I hope that, coming from someone less biased than me, the message may not get too closely associated with the messenger this time.

Well I never! Avoiding grazies indeed! I need every grazie I can get if I'm ever to reach the ranks of the highest grazied people here.
This post deserves grazies from all the esteemed members, so I bet it doesn't get any! :laughs:

boys, boys,.....

I find myself agreeing with both sides here, not a position I am used to!

I welcome Cristiana and her input; I have long believed that this forum needs more participation from Italians. Possibly the fact that it is almost exclusively English in content is quite off putting to anyone whose command of the English language is anywhere as bad as mine of the Italian language.

Cristiana has, I think, a lot to offer and I hope she is not intimidated by the way she has been received here.

However…………….

Cristiana is not just an ordinary member here, she is part of the administration and as such has the power to alter and edit posts she finds unacceptable and this is where I have a problem. I have had a post modified for using ‘terms which are unacceptable in the forum’. I had to ask what terms were unacceptable and Cristina kindly replied. Now I don’t think that what I wrote was at all unacceptable and some far more offensive (to me) terms have gone unmodified. I could try and discover why what I said upset Cristiana so much but I feel that the root would be lost in translation and that further communication on the subject would be a waste of time for both of us.

Unfortunately this leaves me in the position of not knowing what will be found unacceptable as it clearly differs from what I find unacceptable. If this continues and other posters become confused it will lead to more curbing of expression and more innuendo, which I feel would be detrimental to the forum.

I do feel that for an English language forum to be administered by anyone who does not know all the subtleties and nuances of the language is a mistake.

As JC says we must give Cristiana a chance to learn but equally we have a duty to help in that learning process and if we cannot feel free to do that then it will be a very steep curve indeed.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;100729]I thought you were now a reformed character, if i've read your second last post correctly J+C!!! lol Be rest assured you are at the very pinnacle of our high estimation already. lol[/quote]

Reforming oneself and being reformed are two different things Sally. Pressure does not reform - liberation does. I've now been graciously allowed that freedom and will do my best to protect it from an usurper who constantly tries to threaten it through malice and lack of wit - although that is the laconic version of what I really mean.

Even when disagreed with by others, I don't ever hide my passion on any subject, I wont cower away and will say my bit if I see anyone attempting to kick a stray dog - and maybe that's why others understand me. Try it. :smile:

Tribalism Pigro, ?, dont be a kill joy I like grazies too, I can see that they were once used in a "pack culture", but not now?, thought J&Cs post was a thoughtful one which I agreed with so deserved one.Poor Christiana is taking a bit of a battering though, it would be nice to give her time to settle in more Nardini ,I understand what she is saying dont you think you might be being a little harsh in your judgements?, I know you are an eloquent writer but not everyone on this forum, even those with English as their first language gets it word perfect all the time, and not everyone is used to expressing themselves in a manner that is clearly understood by all. It would be rude and unkind to hold them up for ridicule, so lets afford Christiana the same understanding.
A

[quote=juliancoll;100735]Reforming oneself and being reformed are two different things Sally. Pressure does not reform - liberation does. I've now been graciously allowed that freedom and will do my best to protect it from an usurper who constantly tries to threaten it through malice and lack of wit - although that is the laconic version of what I really mean.

Even when disagreed with by others, I don't ever hide my passion on any subject, I wont cower away and will say my bit if I see anyone attempting to kick a stray dog - and maybe that's why others understand me. Try it. :smile:[/quote]

I deleted my post J+C as you can see. I also gave the reason.

[quote=Nielo;100734]

As JC says we must give Cristiana a chance to learn but equally we have a duty to help in that learning process and if we cannot feel free to do that then it will be a very steep curve indeed.[/quote]

You are right Nielo - absolutely - but Cristiana must also have the freedom to "make mistakes" as an Administrator and as someone struggling to master another language and our acceptance that she is not here to be demoralised and demonised by us is paramount.

Attacking her for grammatical mistakes is flawed - it serves no purpose. We will only alienate her by doing this and show her that we are intolerant in the extreme - just like we did with Paul Newman - who made far more meny (sic) mistakes with his mother tongue than Cristiana ever has.

Let her be - allow her true self to blossom and then we can make an informed decision about her worthiness - as an Administrator - as an Italian - as a woman. I feel we may all be very pleasantly surprised. :smile:

[quote=pigro;100723]I'd have to agree with you - in a situation where some moderation or admin issue was being mishandled due to lack of understandng of the nuances. I spoke up in this thread because that isn't the case. All Cristiana was doing was trying to promote discussion, and i took her input at face value, just as (say) when Ronald posted something about Sicily or whatever.[/quote]Almost, but not quite, Graeme. Cristiana involved herself pretty thoroughly when she stepped in and closed down a thread because of a misunderstanding on her part. Not exactly the same as Ronald making one of his interesting posts (Ronald - post the odd thing or two again, will you?). Perhaps you missed the saga of PN (oh, no you didn't - you "grazie'd" the final post from Cristiana at the time when you assumed she was being rude to me) at the time and the subsequent posts. This is merely a continuation as it is clear that Cristiana has a few "issues" with English. As she is wielding her weapons of moderation, it is something that needs airing, not simply patting her on the head in a highly condescending way, muttering; "she's only a foreigner". Cristiana has the right to know where she is erring and also the right to ask for some linguistic help from EVERYONE here.

As far as the "problem" between us - I didn't run anywhere. It's not my style to "run", as you might have guessed. But, if you post a photograph of someone (me), drawing very personal parallels with an ugly little photo (a troll), you deserve a virtual smack in the gob - Liverpool style. You got it - end of story. OK?

Nardini a few days ago asked a week or so ago openly in some thread, that she posted some background information about herself, not necessarily 100 percent accurate. I also reminded her of this when she pm-d me recently, but so far niente as far as I can see. I can't help a feeling of déjà vu (Come si dice in Italiano???)