10531 builder trying it on

You do not state what the extra amount is for. Did you make changes while the work was in progress, that were different to the original quote?

Hi
Take legal advise.

the extra amount is for a couple of jobs which we traded off for things in the contract ie putting the battesscopa on and a 3 metre trench for the plummer to put a pipe in.We reckon about 2000euro worth but then followed a list of inflated prices for jobs which were part of the main work.

[quote=terrazzi;98090]
Then we were presented with a handwritten bill for a further amount(nearly 30%) of the original price.We of course dismissed this as a ludicrous try on and refused to pay.[/quote]

Do I take it that you just chucked this bill in the bin without discussing it with the builder or your geometra? That sounds very irresponsible to me. If your contract was based on a computo metrico, what you effectively contracted was to pay the [B]rates for the work[/B] in the computo metrico. With the best will in the world, the [B]quantities[/B] of work may have been underestimated (awfully easy to do with a refurb). So, before going to bleat to an incredibly expensively suited avvocato, I'd try to reopen a dialogue with the builder and your geometra.

I concur with Charles, that if you compromised on some of the work, then take it up directly with the other parties. A preventivo is supposed to be a fixed price, agreed for the stated work, but if you change anything at all then there could be repercussions, which need to be sorted out amicably, or agreed at the time.

I'm sorry i'm not being very clear.We agreed a contract and the price at the start.As the work progressed things went ok, we compromised on a few things to speed up the job,we ran over to supply funds when asked and when the work was finished we paid in full everybody including the extra bits.when we were presented with a handwritten bill on a4 paper with no heading or vat for work already paid for and that which was for genuine work at a inflated price we baulked.We had two meeting (where there was much shouting mainly by him) to try to come to an agreement I even asked a property developer i know to give him a call to try to reason with him but to no avail.We refuse to pay any of this money until we come to a reasonable figure which we think is just less than half of the bill.We have sent emails pointing out clearly our thoughts and why we feel the bill is unfair in detail and all we get back is ranting emails of how we are insulting his work and he actually told us he feels like smashing the house up if we dont pay. so basically we are being bullied and threatened into paying an unfair extra charge to make the job a nice earner for him after he went in low to get the job.

Others here are far better qualified than me to suggest how you might best proceed, but a couple of questions about facts which might be relevant:

Did you get receipts for the money you paid the builder and do you still have those?

Do you still have the handwritten bill which, from what you say, is asking you to pay money "in the black"?

Al

yes to both,in fact various extras bills each greater than the last

I have two friends who have been in exactly the same position as you. Both went to lawyers and and subsequently to court and had judgements made against them. In one case it has thoroughly ruined their lives here in Italy and even their health.

From their experiences, I would recommend avoiding court at all costs but do get a lawyer. The difficult thing is getting a good lawyer. Both my friends initially employed "lawyers" who turned out to just have law degrees (not the same as being a lawyer, clearly). For one friend it definitely cost her the case. If you are in Marche, I can PM you with details of my friend's new lawyer who she is very pleased with (and she was a lawyer in the UK and so difficult to please) otherwise the one thing that both of them wish they had done was to find a good lawyer outside of the area that they live in. Too many people seemed to "know" each other for them to be sure there was no back-scratching.

It could be that a well-worded lawyer's letter mentioning the tax man and your builder's lack of a fattura showing IVA might get him to behave more reasonably. Just do everything you can to avoid going to court. Sorry not to be more cheerful.

Hi Terrazzi,
where is the house? I mean, in which part of Italy.
Max

Hi,
the house is near Sulmona in L'Aquila, Abruzzo

i thought you might be in Abruzzo!

When it comes to these amounts how much more are they than you expected? 50% ,100% ???? Have you compared notes with others who've had building work done?? What do they think?

I certainly think that some building and decorating work in Abruzzo is ludicrusly over priced and I wonder how these 'professionals' will do when the supply of outside buyers dries up? BUT it is easy to underestimate costs too especailly with an old property.[B]And[/B] there is a gulf of difference between how you see a restoration job to how a builder in Italy sees one leading to them often carrying out over complicated and unecessary work costing 1,000s!!

we have contacted a lawyer in the uk and after establishing the cost are meeting with her next week. i outlined the situation and she thinks he doesnt av a leg to stand on what with threats of criminal damage in front of witnesses and handwritten bills with no iva, plus the project not being fulfilled accuratly and a six month overrun constitute breach of contract.
i would though be interested to hear from anyone else with similar problems in the sulmona area as there was an article in Il Centro about how great it is that the british are buying up old houses and renovating them.Maybe if they heard about these greedy profiteers who are bordering on criminal it might break the closed shop mentality.

terrazi I think we can all agree that you've had a terrible experience but I would read a bitmore on this forum about trying to sue a builder/geometra in Italy.The legal system here is far from the one we 'enjoy' in the UK and you may be in for a great deal of stress and even despair if you go down this route.

A relation had a similar situation in another EU contry and its still not been resolved 6 years later.He became extremly depressed and it was a great worry for everyone.

We have had a builder just walk off site leaving most of the work we'd part for unfinished.All attempts to track him down have failed ;even his relation who recommended him claims not to know where he lives!Or his surname!!!!So we've had to put it down to experience sadly as its left a rather bad taste and made us very cynical when dealing with any builders in Italy.

You are clearly in the right but whether there will be any justice for you through the Italian courts may be a mute point.

I really am grateful for info. If i can counterscare with a stern solicitors letter laced with a few threats and achieve a reasonable price for the work i will be happy. i am though a bit fed up with these people treating me like an idiot and trying to fleece me for money i dont have. im not paying 18000 euros for work worth 2000 and thats that!

I am sure you will be very careful, but my friends were also told the builders didn't have a leg to stand on and they even had video evidence of the builder giving away their materials to his friends! They both still lost.

I think counterscare is very wise. I am assuming it is an Italian lawyer in the UK?

i got this firm of lawyers on a recommendation from the law society and the woman is scottish but an expert on european contract law.shes very scary!
i had to ask her nicely not to contact the caribinerie until we've explored the options. the first hour is free i will wear a watch.got to go strictly come dancing is on! i will go to prison before i pay this builder the full amount!! awayway i could do with the rest. ciao tutti.

Good luck and please keep letting us know how you progress

will do. thanks guys.

If you are looking for a lawyer in Le Marche please contact me, my wife is qualified in the UK and the US and is working with an Italian lawyer in Grottamare.

[quote=terrazzi;98447]I really am grateful for info. If i can counterscare with a stern solicitors letter laced with a few threats and achieve a reasonable price for the work i will be happy. i am though a bit fed up with these people treating me like an idiot and trying to fleece me for money i dont have. im not paying 18000 euros for work worth 2000 and thats that![/quote]

Hi terrazzi.

I know I haven't posted for quite some time, but your post has touched a raw nerve.

I know exactly what you mean and how you feel. You have my fullest sympathy.

Whether one has the financial security or otherwise, these toe-rags will still 'try in on'. I don't believe it's a question of them thinking that you or anyone else is an idiot: it's more of an assumption on their part that Brits live in mud huts back in the UK.

After having spent a considerable amount of our hard earned savings on our part new-build/renovation, we have been shafted by the geometra (who is also the project manger) and the builders.

Here's just one example of many.......and I'm glad that another IM Forum member has had a look at our project and I'm sure would vouch for me.

Although the work done is of a very high standard, the geometra & the builders, in their own wisdom, rushed to do the plastering on the exterior of the house and absolutely F C UKED up the colour.

The geometra has taken responsiblity for the mistake and has offered to pay for painting the exterior. Although we did not want to paint the exterior it seems that this might be the only solution now.

Our geometra insists, of course very politely, that we must first pay the builder. Do pigs fly?

We've asked them to sue us. It's almost a year to date since the fiasco. We don't think they'll go down that route and we know exactly why.

One thing for sure....we decided some time ago that any more work that does not need to be certified under Italian legge, will be done by our English builders.

#1

Nice to see you back Numerouno.

Hi Numero
I sometimes think that I'm too negative and I know I've had comments to that effect .
You and I and Terrazzi probably thought that we had things under control, knew what we were doing etc but things still went wrong.Why? Well in my opinion its because none of us have come across an Italian Geometra or builder before and had therefore not developed fully our 'bullshit' sensors!

Working together the Italian Geometra and builder are a force to be reckoned with.
Be afraid, be very afraid as your view on anything and everything will be dismissed with an shrug of the shoulders and a sucked lemon expression.If you really press your point then the frightners are put on:
"Yes we can do that but you'll have to sign something to say that we aren't responsible for any problems etc,etc"

But the good news is that you can get it right (eventually) .Once you've graduated from the School of 'Bullshitiing Builders and Geometre' with frist class honours ;but the trouble is at this stage you lost all your money in the process so are not able to put your new skills into practice !!

Sorry if I've offended anyone in this post ; its the way we do it in Britain!!!!

[quote=myabruzzohome;98518]Hi Numero
I sometimes think that I'm too negative and I know I've had comments to that effect .
You and I and Terrazzi probably thought that we had things under control, knew what we were doing etc but things still went wrong.Why? Well in my opinion its because none of us have come across an Italian Geometra or builder before and had therefore not developed fully our 'bullshit' sensors!

Working together the Italian Geometra and builder are a force to be reckoned with.
Be afraid, be very afraid as your view on anything and everything will be dismissed with an shrug of the shoulders and a sucked lemon expression.If you really press your point then the frightners are put on:
"Yes we can do that but you'll have to sign something to say that we aren't responsible for any problems etc,etc"

But the good news is that you can get it right (eventually) .Once you've graduated from the School of 'Bullshitiing Builders and Geometre' with frist class honours ;but the trouble is at this stage you lost all your money in the process so are not able to put your new skills into practice !!

Sorry if I've offended anyone in this post ; its the way we do it in Britain!!!![/quote]

Hi Becky.

[B][COLOR="black"]ONE OF THE BEST POSITIVE POSTS EVER POSTED IN THE HISTORY OF IM FORUMS. YOU HAVE MY HIGHEST APPRECIATION.
[/COLOR][/B]

Does anyone remember 'Lombardia' ? Although he was a bit OTT, nevertheless he did stir up a hornets nest and oh so rightly.

As you say, if we are not prepared to accept all the bull & horse & pig shit from the 'Forza di Geometre e Morature' then our dreams really become nightmares.

IMHO, the really negative posts come from some members who say ' if you don't like it, then leave'. I think those remarks are highly offensive and I consider them to be an attack on one's integrity.

Maybe we will leave Italy (now fast-becoming a can of worms for us)....not from want of trying, but for refusing enroll to the School of 'Bullshitiing Builders and Geometre' .

BTW, there are quite few other IM Forum members in similar situations like you, terrazza and me.

#1

come on everybody lets not get down about all this. thanks again for all the advice.im sorry that so many people are suffering this abuse but as long as we all get what we want in the end it could be worth it. anyway if it were that easy everybody in the uk would be over there. i am going to use every thing at my disposal to really make myself someone they want to avoid. tomorrow i meet with this lawyer and will push the cash in hand and breach of contract angle whilst formally informing the police about the threats. the local newspaper did an inrtview with the mayor who waxed lyrical about the brits really improving the local economy with a picture of my house to show what can be done, i think him and the paper need an email to put them in the picturedont you? plus the local chamber of trade need a letter surely, and finally central tv did a short prog on our progect maybe a follow up detailling the pitfalls and rip offs might concentrate his mind. Failing all this uncle benito from naples could visit and show him a novel use for wellies and cement!!

Terrazzi, if you don't want more trouble - make sure you buy your cement from the Casalesi in Naples. :bigergrin:

not blue circle then?:smile:

[quote=numerouno;98619]Hi Becky.

[B][COLOR="black"]ONE OF THE BEST POSITIVE POSTS EVER POSTED IN THE HISTORY OF IM FORUMS. YOU HAVE MY HIGHEST APPRECIATION.
[/COLOR][/B]

Does anyone remember 'Lombardia' ? Although he was a bit OTT, nevertheless he did stir up a hornets nest and oh so rightly.

As you say, if we are not prepared to accept all the bull & horse & pig shit from the 'Forza di Geometre e Morature' then our dreams really become nightmares.

IMHO, the really negative posts come from some members who say ' if you don't like it, then leave'. I think those remarks are highly offensive and I consider them to be an attack on one's integrity.

Maybe we will leave Italy (now fast-becoming a can of worms for us)....not from want of trying, but for refusing enroll to the School of 'Bullshitiing Builders and Geometre' .

BTW, there are quite few other IM Forum members in similar situations like you, terrazza and me.

#1[/quote]

You can put us in that growing club.
Our geometra, who we had fired, started the strong ( or wrong ) arm tactics.
Over the space of 2 days, via email, (which are now considered legal documents), She threatened to raise her bill from 2.500k E to massive 14700K E if we did not pay within 48 hours, we have taken advise and have been told that we have a strong case for compensation against her, her studio , which is owned by her Father, the builders, that she employed.
I have never been down this type of road before, but I can now understand the old saying.........Fight fire with fire..........good luck to you all, and us.

There is also another problem with Italian law, in that the geometre can be a witness for both the plaintiff and defendant in the case of a dispute over building work. Suppose it depends who will pay him the most to support their case. This is not directed at all geometres as there seems to be very many honest and reliable ones. Just unlucky when you get one who is only interested in his/her fee.
Our geometre said he would arbitrate over the poor quality work by the finishing builder as hired by himself. Hid his head in the sand as soon as there were problems, despite being given a list of over 50 issues related, some pictures of which are on my profile page.
Builder then took us to court over the unpaid final account, as soon as he heard we were in dispute of the payment. 3 years on, still ongoing as each court appearance is 6 months to 1 year apart and I am a witness, as house in in the wifes name, so acceptable in Italy as against the UK.

hi geotherm hope you prevail. i am heartened by your post as i seems that my geometra(who has kept a v low profile over this) doesnt like the builder and has told me he doesnt like his work so maybe he wont side with him at least.i dont want to go to court but wont be shafted either.

If the geometre does not like the builder, then I presume he did not hire him. We got the geometre to take the initial builder on through recommendations and his work was perfect. We asked to have him finish all the rest of the work, but were told he was not that good........ lies again, as wanted his Venetian painter and his barflies/alcoholics/missfitsto complete his first project. Wonder why after this first project that he does not use him anymore.

Isn't there some sort of arbitration hearing that you need to go through first before anyone takes anyone else to court? From what I've heard, the hearing establishes whether or not there's actually a case, and so should avoid frivolous or weak cases being taken any further. (So it works for both parties.)

In my very limited experience of having building work done, I found that things came to light which had never been discussed, other things changed, and the estimate was just that - an estimate. But it would have been much, much worse if I didn't speak enough Italian to understand what was going on and to ask questions. I don't want to upset anyone here, but in the projects that have gone wrong, was everything properly explained at the outset and as the works were going on? If you don't speak Italian fluently, did you have someone on board who could translate accurately? I'm sure there are some builders out there who'll try it on, and maybe everyone here has been the victim of this - and this only. But a lot of the problems I've heard about among friends etc are also compounded by linguistic misunderstandings.

[quote=terrazzi;98655]...i am going to use every thing at my disposal to really make myself someone they want to avoid. tomorrow i meet with this lawyer and will push the cash in hand and breach of contract angle whilst formally informing the police about the threats. the local newspaper did an inrtview with the mayor who waxed lyrical about the brits really improving the local economy with a picture of my house to show what can be done, i think him and the paper need an email to put them in the picturedont you? plus the local chamber of trade need a letter surely...[/quote]
Seems possible you're overlooking something else that may terrify a dodgy builder even more than the things you've already mentioned: him coming to the attention of the Guardia di Finanza.

You seemed to indicate that the builder was doing this work in the black since the invoices and receipts were all informal and written on scraps of paper. It therefore seems entirely possible that he has not forwarded to the proper authorities the taxes which you, having acted in good faith, believe ([I]ahem![/I]) you have paid. I don't know who, under Italian tax laws, is liable to pay the missing tax if you hire someone who you think is acting in accordance with the tax laws but who is actually avoiding paying the taxes he should. However, I think the possibility of passing copies of the builder's documents to the Guardia di Finanza – or your lawyer making an implicit threat to do so by asking his lawyer for clarification on the tax the builder has paid just to confirm your position – might be something you discuss with your lawyer.

Al

hi Al,
just found out what the grazie button does! should have pressed it for all the help and support shown, probably excluding Charles for telling me not to bleat:winki:. good point about la guardia di finanzia have added it to the list if things get tough. dont tell anyone else but all the way through this everybody has been on the take from the notiao to the local guy who calls me if theres a problem.
it may be worth pointing out to greedy builder that everyone else is quite happy with this situation but his excessive greed could get everyone in deep mire dropping his street cred to zero.

Sorry terazzi! I wasn't telling you not to bleat - just enquiring whether you had anything to bleat about! Your later posts explained stuff more precisely. Good luck with the lawyer, I'd rather pit myself against any other profession (including muratori and geometre) but it's your call.

Terazzi,

your ideas sound very sound. In having kind of "lived through" my two friend's experiences it seems as if it is very difficult to get any form of justice through the courts here. In one case, she came to an agreement with the builder and all parties to the case were happy with the arrangements, however, the judge decided he did not agree with the figure asked for by the builder and has asked a court appointed geometra to decide how much it should be. Now she has no idea how much she will have to pay (will it be more or less? - she suspects it won't be less!) or when it will end. This was the same situation as you - bill on a scrap of paper, no IVA etc. As I mentioned before she was a lawyer in the UK and has been amazed at how things proceed here as they whole system in the UK is aimed at getting two parties to agree but here it isn't.

If you lose, you will have to pay ALL parties legal bills and as her latest (reliable) lawyer explained, this is a licence for the lawyers invovled to charge whatever they like and there is nothing you can do about it. In the UK there are limits to what they can charge but not here.

The upshot is that even if you come to an agreement, once a court case is in process, it cannot easily be stopped and you no longer have control of it as in the UK.

English Teacher's point about language is absolutely crucial. My Italian is good enough to have worked in an office for a year and also do translations but I would NEVER translate for someone in these circumstances. It is just too crucial that every nuance is understood by both parties.

I would ask the Scottish lawyer (assuming you haven't been already), how she would handle the case from the UK; who does she use in the area here; which Italian lawyer (so you can check them out); how does she get her communications translated; how many cases has she handled of this sort in Italy? These are vital bits of information as in translations (as in any process) the more people involved, the more the Chinese Whispers theory is invoked.

I only say all this (not to be negative) but in the sincere hope that no-one else goes down the route my friends have and suffers the stress and upset that they have. It isn't worth it. It has very much affected one of my friend's health and these are not particularly meek and mild people(!). Both of my friends would say avoid the courts at all costs - come to some agreement with the builder and accept (a bitter pill, I know) you will probably have to pay something. The only exception I would make to that statement is unless you are Italian, or fluent in Italian and can hand on your heart say you have an experienced, knowledgeable lawyer that you trust.

Being morally in the right, even having evidence and a lawyer tell you it is all in your favour does NOT mean you will win the case. It is far more complicated than that here.

hi penny thanks for your post.
i am working on the premiss that because the builders billing is so blatently illegal a few well worded threats as i have outlined before will keep this case out of court. i am willing to pay for the genuine extras at a reasonable rate and hope that these threat help to facilitate this. i have to pin him down somehow and if it takes a denuncia to do it ( or at least the threat of it) then so be it. the plain fact is we signed a contract not a preventivo for 55000 to complete the progetto in 10 months neither of these criteria were fulfilled. we paid 55000 for which we obtained dated signitures on the contract itself.we were issued fattura for only 33000. then we were issed hand written unofficial bills for extras which are not extras as they are implicit in the contract for 4350 then it went up to 9600 then 13500 and finally 14400. this has to stop and im going to have a good try. finally if he takes me down over this then ill do my best to take all the other profiteers on my job with me. bitter? oh yes.

[quote=terrazzi;98707]dont tell anyone else but all the way through this everybody has been on the take from the notiao to the local guy who calls me if theres a problem. [/quote]

That's a really serious allegation to make about the notaio. Unless you can prove it, I'd keep your suspicions quiet, otherwise they could sue you for libel / slander. I would imagine that the worst possible scenario ever would be to have to face a notaio in court, but that's because I'm afraid of lawyers and try never to have dealings with them. Cowardly, I know, but I wouldn't want to go anywhere near a courtroom in Italy, having heard about other people's experiences.

I think it's a good plan of yours to try and sort things out between yourselves, and maybe the stern letters will make your builder see sense. Good luck!

All this talk of courts and bitterness seems a waste - invite the bloke for a drink and tell him straight that you have a brown envelope tucked up your left sleeve if he behaves himself and a pistol stuck up your right sleeve if he doesn't. Do it Italian style - don't forget to smile nicely. :bigergrin:

good advice, lawyer says like you he hit you with astick so we hit him with a bigger stick then agree reasonable price and settle, no more hassle. this woman is a corporate lawyer who has run a construction company reads and speaks seems like several lingos, has her own lawyers in italy and inspires much confidence. am seeing things better now .:smile:

Maybe I am missing something, it is entirely possible as at 6 months pregnant most of my brains have flown out of the window, I'm hoping it's not permanent ;). Apologies if I have or if I am repeating anything or am entirely on the wrong track. If so just ignore me :laughs:.

My question is: if the "extras" he is demanding are on a scrap of paper, with no IVA, how on earth does a solicitor think he or she can pursue you through the courts for it?

One thing if they presented you with a proper fattura, with IVA and a data di scadenza, or even a proper preventivo on headed paper with partita IVA for the extra work done on your behalf, but I don't see how anyone can demand anything from you with a scrap of paper, unless the real threat is indeed to smash up your house and not actually take you to court, which seems impossible to me for the above reasons. What did the solicitor's letter say, pay up in black cash immediately? Usually in this case they would refer to an unpaid invoice or other specific, valid document. Or did you pay part of the "official" contract in black cash with no proof of receipt, therefore it appears on paper as if the initial bill is partly upaid?

Hiring a lawyer to proceed with discussions with the other lawyer to point this out with the aim of avoiding court action is no doubt your best bet, given the attitude of the builder, but you should be aware that lawyers are very, very expensive, the hours can mount up and it is always in their interest for the dispute to continue, rather than settle in a few short meetings. However, even if it does, it is going to cost you one way or another.

Also, you didn't explain what the language situation is: do you speak fluent, technical italian or does the builder speak very good English? Could some of the problems have arison from language miscommunication?

hi gardahomes,
first of all we explained to the lawyer that we did not want to swap a massive extras bill for a massive laywers bill so she is quoting a price for each step. the builder either doent have a solicitor or has lied to him/her.all our contract money is signed for on the contract so no escape there.in reality we know he cant take us to court with a handwritten bill for cash but we felt it best to answer this letter genuine or not officially just to show we have teeth.we both speak good italian and there is no misunderstanding. part of the problem is we were to nice at the start almost being grateful for his work this gave him confidence to bully us.