10685 Excavating “historical sites.”

How exciting! I really don't know if there are any laws to stop you getting a trowel out (but I know there are bound to be laws crawling out of the woodwork the minute you find anything interesting)!

Have you got a 'certifcato di destinazione d'uso' from the comune (maybe you saw this document when you bought the house/land), and it should show a 'vincolo' if the belli arti have any knowledge of the ex-castle.

I quite agree that the mattress mice shouldn't be disturbed: have you tried a google.it search on this subject? If I find anything I'll let you know. I'm thinking about searching on tombarola (tomb robbing, aka digging up antiquities).

EDIT: It looks as if the Codice dei Beni Culturali e del paesaggio is concerned with your issues, and I'd look at Articolo 31 (if the link works, that Article is on page 14 of the pdf). I read it to mean you can do what you like in the way of shallow excavation!

[url]www.beniculturali.it/Pdf/Codice2004.pdf[/url]

One thing (bit of a long shot) that would be ueful to you is an aerial photo, preferably taken in a drought year - these often give you a pretty good clue as to where to start digging. Good luck!

Thanks for the input. Have downloaded the PDF file and will slog through it. We have not encountered any other designation for the property other than Agricultural so perhaps we will take your suggestion and "break out the trowels." There are two locations where it appears there may be some sort of subterranean entrances or depressions.

Why not contact the Archeology Dept of an Italian University? They should be able to give some advice as to where to go and who to speak to and may even provide some 'muscle' when it comes to digging! An exciting project!

If it is a site of any sort of historical interest [and from what has been said, it could well be], the last thing to do is 'get your trowels out'. Such a course of action could [unwittingly] cause irreparable damage and loss of info.

Please take up Anne2's suggestion, and ,although I am loathe to recommend it, I feel you must talk to the Commune before 'breaking soil'

Any photos of the site?

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On re-reading my last post - I have just realised that the phrase 'breaking soil' was probably a poor choice of words - it could be construed as one step on from 'breaking wind'!

Ho hum.

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[QUOTE=casa del campanile;99437]We have just acquired a property adjacent to our house that was the site of a Malaspina Castello. There are several local stories concerning what might or might not be buried under the ground. What exist currently are remnants of a old vineyard and a few fruit trees. We have been unable to learn much about the history of the Castello other than some references to its existence at one time.
Before we make any inquiries of the “mattress mice” at City Hall, does anyone on the Forum have any experience with, or knowledge of, any laws, rules, or regulations regarding excavating a possible historic site?
The property is zoned agricultural and there no other designations to be found in official records.
Should you make any excavations and actually find anything of historical interest/importance/value etc apart from old rocks etc in theory you are supposed to inform the sovrintendenza delle belle arti, thats indipendent of whatever destinazione d'uso the land has.the problem then is that all/any work on the land is immediately stopped whilst they decide whether or not to open a scavo.It can get terrible a friend of mine who had a restaurant near Assisi had his restaurant closed for two years and had to make modifications at his own expense on their instructions so the bottom line is do what you like just don't tell any one...

[quote=Sebastiano;99481][QUOTE=casa del campanile;99437]...........the bottom line is do what you like just don't tell any one...[/quote]

I'd suggest that it would be better to do nothing, than risk what might happen if the authorities 'found' that you were digging.

(It only takes one person [deliberately or inadvertently] to let them know, and then you could be in deep 'do-do'

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Thanks to all who have responded. Yes, there are photos, however they only show a terraced hillside with grapevines and some fruit trees, not very interesting.
Since we are departing for warmer climes for the winter, we will not be doing anything on the site until our return in the spring. We have initiated some research that may provide more information than we have so far.
One of the negatives in ascertaining certain factual information is that it will deprive some of our neighbors of one of their favorite pastimes down in the piazza; each telling his/her version of the history to anyone who will listen.
One version describes a buried room, seen as a child some 60 years ago, with paintings on the walls. Fresco, mural, or old calendar???

We have been advised by official “reliable sources” that as the property is zoned agricultural with no restrictions, we should proceed with whatever permitted agricultural uses we wish and should we unearth anything of possible historical value or interest, contact proper authorities at that time.

[quote=casa del campanile;99686]Thanks to all who have responded. Yes, there are photos, however they only show a terraced hillside with grapevines and some fruit trees, not very interesting.[/quote]
The interesting photos would be ones taken from above at a time when there'd been no rain for some time and some of the covering vegetation had started to turn brown. The first vegetation to die back would be that with the shallowest roots (i.e. over buried stonework), so if the timing of the photo is good and the ruins not too deeply buried, you should be able to see lines and patterns of what lies underground.

Of course, the problem most people would have is getting a camera up in the air a hundred meters or so in order to take that photo. Are you or anyone you know interested in microlight flying or model aircraft?
[quote=casa del campanile;99686]One of the negatives in ascertaining certain factual information is that it will deprive some of our neighbors of one of their favorite pastimes down in the piazza; each telling his/her version of the history to anyone who will listen.[/quote]
Is there any consensus about the [I]location[/I] of whatever there was on the site?

Final thought: have you considered wandering around with a metal detector?

Al

It might be worth asking an agronomer if he can get hold of an aerial photograph of your land. Certainly here, areial photos are taken to check that fallow land is really fallow etc. They come round once a year (I think).

I have seen photos of land I used to own which was proviede by an agronomer. No castles though!

Just a hint , I would check out quietly what are the Italian laws re metal detecting before setting out , even on your own land! If you have not used one before then they need patience and some skill to be used successfully - my best tip - always use headphones.

Of course, the problem most people would have is getting a camera up in the air a hundred meters or so in order to take that photo. Are you or anyone you know interested in microlight flying or model aircraft?

Is there any consensus about the [I]location[/I] of whatever there was on the site?

Final thought: have you considered wandering around with a metal detector?

Thanks for the information but getting one of us up in the air on anything less than a commercial flight rate the proverbial two chances; slim and none.
The exterior castello area walls surrounding the site still exist as does the tower from the 15th century, however we have been unable thus far to learn of any specific locations as the story is that the townspeople tore the place down after a dispute with the resident Marquis or whatever.
Will check out the metal detector idea in the spring. Our main goal is to restore and expand the vineyard so that we can make and enjoy more wine.

[quote=casa del campanile;99946].......................... getting one of us up in the air on anything less than a commercial flight rate the proverbial two chances; slim and none. ..........................[/quote]

Have you looked at the aerial photos on sites like 'multimap', 'mappy', 'via michelin' and 'Google Earth' [and others]?

I'm not sure they are detailed enough, but they might show something. [you could say that its 'a bit of a long shot']

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[quote=alan h;99955]Have you looked at the aerial photos on sites like 'multimap', 'mappy', 'via michelin' and 'Google Earth' [and others]?

I'm not sure they are detailed enough, but they might show something. [you could say that its 'a bit of a long shot']

.[/quote]
Thanks for your interest and input. As soon as we are back to our US home equipped with hi-speed internet will check out these sites. We are not in an area of broadband availability in Italy so it is a bit slow to look at some of the map sites.

As Alan says, look at Google Earth (or any of the map sites that use it as the basis of their service) or the Microsoft Virtual Earth version. I have often found that MS Virtual Earth has some areas of Italy in higher definition than Google - but the satellite photographs are usually not as up to date as the Google ones. Definitely worth downloading and installing Google Earth though and it does work on a dial-up connection, albeit a bit slowly!

There are some sites with Italian aerial photos on - many are from the last war, in black and white, and could be just what you want.

[I found them via google, but my Italian wasn't up to understanding how they worked - but a 'google' could be worth trying]

[quote=Nardini;100046]As Alan says, look at Google Earth (or any of the map sites that use it as the basis of their service) or the Microsoft Virtual Earth version. I have often found that MS Virtual Earth has some areas of Italy in higher definition than Google - but the satellite photographs are usually not as up to date as the Google ones. Definitely worth downloading and installing Google Earth though and it does work on a dial-up connection, albeit a bit slowly![/quote]

Thanks for the info. I do have Google Earth but have tried it only once on dial-up since, as you say, it does work "albeit a bit slowly."

[quote=casa del campanile;100143]Thanks for the info. I do have Google Earth but have tried it only once on dial-up since, as you say, it does work "albeit a bit slowly."[/quote]I would suggest that you increase the cache settings as high as you can. I have mine set to a 1000Mb disk cache size. That way, once you have downloaded an area in the maximum resolution possible for the area, you will have it stored on disk for later use. In fact, once you have an area in the disk cache, you don't actually need to be connected at all to see it - handy if you are on site with your lap top! Just start up Google Earth and wait for it to go through all of the connection attempts before clicking "no" to the question of whether you should advise Google of the "problem" (that sets it into even more connection attempts!).