10831 Italian Citizenship

[quote=Penny;101305]...there is absolutely no way we will have a UK id card and if that means taking Italian residency then we'll do that instead.[/quote]
Because you are unhappy with the UK government issuing Identity Cards, you want to become a citizen of Italy – a country where you are now required by law to carry identification at all times and where ID cards have been a feature of life for decades?

Al

I don't have any proble with id cards per se (and have an Italian paper one). In fact I generally think they are good idea, but being an IT consultant who has been involved with some government projects I have some insight into what an absolute pigs ear they will make of implementing digital id cards with biometric data.

There is no way the data will be secure, unhackable, up to date or aid anything useful other than the government's attempts to keep endless databases of information on us all (not paranoia - remember this is what I did for a living).

Just imagine for a second what would happen when your id card gets used fraudulently and some jobsworth on the "helpline" says "It must be you - id cards can't be wrong. They have all your biometrics on them". Just how do you sort that out? What happens in the meantime? Bank accounts frozen automatically - who knows??

I am afraid the government have a long way to go to persuade me they are capable of manging a project like that. Just read about some of the recent government IT projects - it's an eye opener.

[quote=Penny;101305]Does anyone know what is required for this or how to go about it? All I can find on the internet is for foreigners (mostly Americans) who have Italian ancestors. I am pretty sure you have to have lived here for 5 years but that is all I know.

Anyone done it?

"Why?" you might ask. Basically because there is absolutely no way we will have a UK id card and if that means taking Italian residency then we'll do that instead.[/quote]

Be careful - it will also involve [I]any[/I] income from the UK being taxed at about 40%, or the difference between tax paid in the UK and tax required here!
Believe me - [B]I KNOW![/B]

Oh, of course there would also be the added bonus of being able to vote in Italian elections.... so maybe it [U]WOULD[/U] be worth it after all? :laughs:

But then again... :nah:

So do I! Got my final instalment for last year, this month - phew.:Dancing_biggrin:

Hi Penny,

You can have Italian residency without being an Italian citizen. I know as we had it when we lived in Italy. At the time, my husband was a student and all we had to do was register with the questura, although I know it's quite different now. My advice would be to ask your comune or someone from the Italian consulate.

Hi Lisa,

thanks but I already have residency. I do really mean citizensip so as not to require a UK passport.

Well, I have to say I am really surprised: it seems for an EU citizen residency in Italy for as little as four years entitles you to make an application for citizenship.

[url=http://www.interno.it/mininterno/export/sites/default/it/sezioni/servizi/come_fare/cittadinanza/Concessione_della_cittadinanza_italiana_a_cittadini_stranieri_residenti_in_Italia_xart._9x_legge_5_febbraio_1992x_n._91x.html]Ministero Dell'Interno - Come fare per[/url]

(However, since this was hit number three searching for "cittadinanza italiano" on google.it, I fail to see why you couldn't answer this question for yourself)

Hi Penny,

Charles is correct from what I found as far as the 4 year requirement for you.
Here is some information that should be of help. We are American and in the process of getting citizenship through my husband's grandfather, but the Italian Consulate in Boston lists on the website all of the ways one can become a citizen. Here is a link to their webpage in addition to the information I found while looking for you -. [url=http://www.consboston.esteri.it/Consolato_Boston/Menu/I_Servizi/Per_i_cittadini/Cittadinanza/]Consulate General of Italy in Boston[/url]

HOW TO APPLY -

3. Naturalizzazione

requirements include:

10 years of legal residence;
sufficient income;
absence of criminal record;
renunciation of original citizenship (where foreseen).
the number of years can be reduced to:

3 years of legal residence for descendents of former Italian citizens by birth, up to the 2nd degree, and for foreigners born in Italian national territory;

4 years of legal residence for citizens of European Community Member States;

5 years of legal residence for displaced persons or refugees, as well as for legal-age foreigners adopted by Italian citizens;

7 years of legal residence as the child of an Italian parent;

no period of residence is required for foreigners who have served the State for a period of at least 5 years, even abroad.

Application for naturalisation must be addressed to the President of the Republic (Presidente della Repubblica) and presented to the Prefecture in the Province of residence.

DOCUMENTATION TO BE PRESENTED WITH APPLICATION FOR CITIZENSHIP
Documentation SELF-CERTIFIABLE:

Certificate from the General Records Office with revenue stamp;
Certificate of family situation with revenue stamp;
Certificate of residence history; if there is more than one municipality of legal residence, certification of residence history for each municipality must be provided with revenue stamp;

Authenticated copies of tax forms 740 or 101 for the three years immediately preceding application, or certificate issued by the authorised tax office of income earned in the three years immediately preceding application.

Documentation NOT SELF-CERTIFIABLE:
application for citizenship to be made on a pre-printed form available at the Prefecture of the place of residence;

birth certificate from country of origin with all pertinent data; in the case of documented impossibility, statement issued by the diplomatic or consular authorities of the country of origin, duly translated and witnessed, indicating name, surname, date and place of birth as well as names of applicant’s father and mother;

Criminal record from applicant’s country of origin and country of residence (self-certificate from EU citizens only);

Authorisation of the authorities of the country of origin to release all pertinent information on the applicant that may be requested by the Italian diplomatic authorities, using the pre-printed form available from the Prefecture;

Declaration renouncing the protection of the Italian diplomatic and consular authorities from the authorities of the country of origin, using the pre-printed form available at the Prefecture (only for applicants requesting citizenship in order to reside in Italy)

Certificate with revenue stamp of Italian citizenship of spouse (only for those applying for citizenship following matrimony).

After application is made the following additional documentation will be requested by the competent authorities:

Certificate concerning charges pending in the applicant’s area of residence issued by the Public Prosecutor’s Office at the locally authorised courts;

Data concerning the applicant’s entrance and period of stay;

Copy of marriage certificate from the Italian municipality where the marriage is registered (only for those applying for citizenship following matrimony).

In order to shorten the process the applicant can always send certificates in his/her possession, even if not authenticated, by electronic means.

Hope this is helpful!

Lisa

[quote=Penny;101319]I don't have any proble with id cards per se (and have an Italian paper one). In fact I generally think they are good idea, but being an IT consultant who has been involved with some government projects I have some insight into what an absolute pigs ear they will make of implementing digital id cards with biometric data.

There is no way the data will be secure, unhackable, up to date or aid anything useful other than the government's attempts to keep endless databases of information on us all (not paranoia - remember this is what I did for a living).

Just imagine for a second what would happen when your id card gets used fraudulently and some jobsworth on the "helpline" says "It must be you - id cards can't be wrong. They have all your biometrics on them". Just how do you sort that out? What happens in the meantime? Bank accounts frozen automatically - who knows??

I am afraid the government have a long way to go to persuade me they are capable of manging a project like that. Just read about some of the recent government IT projects - it's an eye opener.[/quote]
So a British ID card system with biometrics is evil, an erosion of personal liberties, a recipe for disaster, etc, etc, but you're convinced that you won't have any problems if you have an [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3662623.stm"][B]Italian[/B] ID biometric card[/URL] containing even more data than what is being proposed for Britain.

I don't know anything about Italian governmental IT projects, but I find it difficult to believe that Italy has never had any problems with badly defined and frequently changing goals, poor project oversight, inept managers and negligent technicians.

As someone who was not born in the UK but is now a British citizen, I'd suggest that you think very carefully about what you're considering and your reasons for taking Italian citizenship. I don't know if you've been considering renouncing your British citizenship once you're Italian, but if you have, I'd suggest you spend even more time thinking about that step.

Al

I agree in principle with all that you have said, Allan. However at the moment an Italian ID card, validity ten years, has a space for a fingerprint (but if you are Italian or EU it doesn't get asked for).

The bizarre thing that the original poster is suggesting (if taking Italian citizenship does involve relinquishing UK nationality) will render her amongst the first (or second) tranche REQUIRED to carry a UK Identity Card if she ever goes back to the UK! I think (if the OP bothers to read the responses) Carole B has comprehensively knocked the 'cunning plan' into touch!

[quote=Charles Phillips;101359][B]......The bizarre thing[/B] that the original poster is suggesting (if taking Italian citizenship does involve relinquishing UK nationality) will render her amongst the first (or second) tranche REQUIRED to carry a UK Identity Card if she ever goes back to the UK! I think ([B]if the OP bothers to read the responses[/B]) Carole B has comprehensively [B]knocked the 'cunning plan' into touch![/B][/quote]

Charles,
I don't know what I have done to offend you but that appears from your comments to be what I have done. I did read all of the responses carefully. CaroleB's comment stated I should watch out for the tax liability and I'd get the dubious honour of voting in the Italian elections. As I have been resident here for several years, run a business here and pay my taxes here, I can't see how she has "knocked my cunning plan into touch". I am not returning to the UK (other than for holidays) so I am not sure why I would still need a UK id card if i was an Italian citizen? Am I missing something?????
I am sure Carole's intention was to warn me in case I wasn't aware of the tax implications. My failure to find the answer on google also seems to have got your goat. There is a simple reason - I searched in English. After a long day at work, I didn't want to have to translate Italian. I was tired, so thanks again to Lisa C. for the detailed response.

Allan,
I never said it was "evil" or an "attack on my civil liberties" to have a digital id card. I think neither of those things. My issue is with the running of the thing. Those are your words, please do quote me correctly.
Thank you for the link to the article but the big difference is that digital id cards are voluntary in Italy. Also, as it was from 2004 and I have yet to even see one here, I am fairly happy the paper one will be around for a fair while yet.
My mother is also not from the UK and became a British citizen many years ago, so I have some insight into what it means to renounce the citizenship of your birth. She too, never returned to the nation of her birth except for holidays.

I didn't realise I would get such disdain for asking this question. I explained my motives (not to be provocative, but because I knew someone would ask me "why"). If anyone is interested in discussing my motives rather than ridiculing them, feel free to email or PM me (as I feel that is the more appropriate medium for that kind of discussion) and I will happily tell you which projects I worked on and why I feel the way I do.

[quote=Charles Phillips;101359]I agree in principle with all that you have said, Allan. However at the moment an Italian ID card, validity ten years, has a space for a fingerprint (but if you are Italian or EU it doesn't get asked for).[/quote]
The BBC article I linked to refers to a plastic ID card containing biometric data which, it is suggested, will be used for just about everything: ID, CF, ASL, border control, driving licence, etc.

As Penny points out, that item was written in 2004. Given how things work in Italy, the roll-out may still be underway when the current, quaint paper ID with manually typed data and stapled-on photo celebrates its centenary in 40 years or so. But things do [I]sometimes[/I] move very quickly here, so it would seem to me naive to assume that the Italian ID card that looks very much like the one now being worked on in Britain won't be the only type being issued in a few years, required by law to be carried and the only way of accessing many services.
[quote=Penny;101371]Allan,
I never said it was "evil" or an "attack on my civil liberties" to have a digital id card. I think neither of those things. My issue is with the running of the thing. Those are your words, please do quote me correctly.
Thank you for the link to the article but the big difference is that digital id cards are voluntary in Italy. Also, as it was from 2004 and I have yet to even see one here, I am fairly happy the paper one will be around for a fair while yet.
...
I didn't realise I would get such disdain for asking this question. I explained my motives (not to be provocative, but because I knew someone would ask me "why"). If anyone is interested in discussing my motives rather than ridiculing them, feel free to email or PM me (as I feel that is the more appropriate medium for that kind of discussion) and I will happily tell you which projects I worked on and why I feel the way I do.[/quote]
First, I didn't quote you, so I therefore could not have misquoted you.

However, I do admit that I'm guilty of making some assumptions about where you were coming from when you said you wanted to become an Italian citizen because of the creation of a British ID card. I'll also admit that what you're proposing still seems to me a disproportionate response, a rather theatrical gesture and really not very logical, given the current laws in Italy and the plans here for an ID card which will be very much like that issued in Britain – plans which seem to be much further advanced that the UK equivalent.

You say that the new plastic ID cards with biometric data are voluntary in Italy. At the moment, they are, but there clearly are definite plans to replace the antiquated cardboard ID with the new plastic biometric ID. I've lost track of what's going with ID cards in Britain and I don't know much about what stage they're at in Italy, but the BBC article from four years ago indicated that the new Italian ID card was then already at a much more advanced point than the British equivalent in that it existed in more than prototype form and it was actually being issued to ordinary people rather than just to the Home Secretary for press conference use.

Given that the necessary legislation was passed in 2000 and how Italians are used to ID cards, there are clearly few political barriers to be overcome before widespread introduction of the new card. I'd also remind you of how we recently saw the abrupt demise of the credit-card style Codice Fiscale with embossed print and that card's function being replaced by a plastic Tessera Sanitaria issued centrally. These facts mean I would not be at all surprised if the new Italian ID card was the [I]only[/I] ID card issued in a few years.

What's more, the Italian plans for co-ordination of centrally held data on ID card holders seems to me much more ambitious than what I've heard being proposed for British ID cards.

While you may have valid concerns about the security and accuracy of data held on British ID card holders, it still seems to me that there will be potential problems of this sort in any country where a similar system is in operation. I cannot accept that British bureaucrats and technocrats are more incompetent or wicked than those in Italy and so you will be safer if you have an Italian biometric, multi-purpose ID card than you would be if you had a British one. You say you're familiar with the shortcomings of British governmental IT projects. How many Italians have you talked to who have worked on similar projects here?

It seems to me that there are lots of positive reasons for becoming a citizen of another country, but doing so in order to avoid having Country A's biometric ID card only to then have to get Country B's biometric ID card seems not very sensible.

In any case, it's your life and, as Lisa has explained, it appears you would be able to become the proud carrier of an Italian passport and Italian biometric ID card if you wished to do so and if you were willing to jump through the necessary bureaucratic hoops. Good luck with that.

Al

Thank you Al.

I agree if that were my only reason it would be ridiculous but it isn't. Let's just say it is the catalyst for giving it serious consideration instead of maintaining the status quo. After all, I live & work here, got married here and have no intention of leaving so I don't think it is quite so bizarre an idea to take the citizenship of the country you now call home - just like my mother did. I also feel that if the biometric id were a major issue for the government here, we would already have it - just like the speedy introducton of the tessera sanitaria you mention (having this saves the state money - ultimately). A project for digital id cards is enormously expensive and I suspect there isn't enough money, certainly for the moment. Of course, it might end up being an EU command in which case we'll all have them!

I have worked all over the world on large and small public & private sector projects (government and non - including some in Italy:GEEK:) and am under no illusions that any equivalent project here in Italy would be intrinsically "better". But if you categorically know something will be a catalogue of disasters, why involve yourself? It is a bit like walking over glass knowing it will cut your feet as opposed to walking on the pavement that might also have glass that may also cut your feet - the difference is that the glass strewn path must contain a greater degree of certain disaster.

Maybe I just have a strange way of looking at things but that is how I view it

* I just did a bit of research on Italian digital id cards (curious now) and according to this document [url=http://www.epractice.eu/document/2731]epractice.eu[/url] from 1st January 2006, all new id cards had to be digital. Definitely NOT happening around here!