10934 Problems with Geometra/Cord and New Roof

Oh, I feel for you - wait for someone like 'Charles Phillips' to reply - he has a lot of knowledge about these type of things.

Very sorry to hear about your predicament. Now, on the practical side, are you fully aware of the contents of the engineer's report? Which was his advice? When was the report made and was it before the original contract with the builder was signed?

I'm sorry you have found yourself in this situation, and I'm probably about to bore you to tears with some generalist observations. However, I'm intrigued to know whether your original geometra/builder combination assured you (possibly even in writing, as you refer to a 'contract') that your roof only needed 'repairs'. If your complete understanding was that your roof needed only repairs, then I think it is worth considering whether that original advice was correct, and questioning the 'new' advice.

Let's start with your builder refusing to take instructions from you, and insisting that there is a geometra (or tecnico abilitato, who could also be an engineer or an architect) in charge of the job. Your builder is absolutely right, and let me explain why. In the UK, we have the local authority Building Inspector in charge of ensuring that any building works conform to the rules - but this person doesn't exist in Italy, and the comune is assured by the geometra in charge that the works are all completed correctly. So the geometra (or equivalent professional) has a lot of responsibility, and if anything is wrong it is down to him and not to the builder. The downside of this is that if you have an over-cautious, or imperfectly informed 'direttore di lavoro', it is the client who ends up footing the bill for the occasional over-enthusiastic interpretation of 'the rules'.

Let's also knock on the head (at least to 90%) the myth that an Italian wouldn't have bothered with the same permissions: now he might, if he was extremely well informed himself, have argued the toss with the geometra about whether to go for a 'permesso di construire', or a 'dichiarazione inizia attivita' to declare it as 'manutenzione straordinaria' - but since you have already told us that you had an engineers' report I deduce that either you were constructing a new extension, or making substantial internal alterations (perhaps, I don't know, even involving a change of use), which would require a 'full permission'.

It isn't easy to advise you, (mainly because I haven't seen your roof!). From what you say (timbers good, and I assume it doesn't leak like a sieve) I can't see any great advantage in replacing it rather than repairing it. However - and you don't say how large this roof is, or whether it has already got 'guaina' (roofing felt) - the price you are mentioning for 'repairs' (especially if this includes guttering) sounds pretty low.

The 'cord' to which you refer is almost certainly "un cordolo", which is a reinforced concrete "ring beam" built around the top of the external walls. The theory behind this is that it consolidates the walls, unites them as a structural entity, and prevents them shaking themselves apart in an earthquake. It is the most common solution to fulfilling the seismic regulations, (though it isn't the only solution). It is a relatively expensive and disruptive crude answer to a fairly non-existent problem, unless you are starting with a complete ruin. Its only possible advantage is that it can be rendered 'invisible', both externally and internally (though it isn't cheap to disappear it from the outside).

If, during your works, you have installed central heating, you may have become subject to a set of relatively recent requirements which would imply the need to insulate the roof. If you want to see the roof from the underside, the installation of the insulation has to be done from above, which of necessity requires a substantial roof job. However, depending both on the sq meterage of the house, plus the date on which the original application to the comune for permission was lodged, this could be a red herring - but you would have to alert your 'new' geometra to the possibilty that you don't need to comply - he is unlikely to think of it for himself.

So, tell me when your application to the comune was first approved: tell me where you are located (at a minimum, the regione): tell me what sort of application was made to the comune: tell me whether your contract was based on a computo metrico produced by the original geometra: tell me if your roof leaks!

Obviously I am biased, but I will never stop asking all you people in this forum if you really know who a "geometra" is. If you need technical advise to repair your property or your roof, why do you hire a geometra and not an architect or an engineer? Do you know that a geometra is someone with as little qualification as the equivalent "A" levels in the UK - so in most cases you will deal with a person who has completed school at the age of 18, with NO FURTHER QUALIFICATION! It's a long story why in Italy we have such an undefined figure, but I thought this would explain some of the problems you are coming across. An architect/engineer would know immediately if a roof needs repair or replacement; as they would know whether to use a "cordolo" or not - and they would know that a reinforced concrete is not used anymore: too heavy and rigid. There are better ways of building cordoli. The fact that a geometra does not know these things should not be a surprise, now that you know their training background. Architects make architecture, geometras can at the most make a survey or stake out a boundary....
However, good luck with your roof!

I agree with you, Marco, but I could also be accused of being biased as I am married to a now retired architect...; however, in this case, there seems to be an engineer's report... This has puzzled me as the report should contain some clues about what was needed under the structural point of view. We do not know the extent of the works to be carried out. In our case, we employed a geometra for the renovations in our house but only to coordinate some trades as we are not living permanently in Italy. But all plans, etc. were my husband's own work and he was telling all the time what should be done....
Anyway, going back to the thread, what did the engineer say in his 2,000 euros report??????

Hi
Thank you to everyone for you response!

I'll start by clarifying that the new Geo. we have been introduced to is also 'Ingegnere'. He has mentioned the 'cordolo' but hasn't suggested any alternative. What may this be and is it as effective/cheaper?

The property is in Sant Eusanio del Sangro near Lanciano (Chieti) Abruzzo. The application for 'permesso di costruire' is dated 10 December 2007 from the comune and the 'progetto' is detailed as 'risanamento strutturale ed igienico sanitario ad un fabbricato per civile'.

There is also a document from the Provincia di Chieti Servizio Attivita' Tecniche Territoriali (ex Genio Civile) dated 3 March 2008.

We have only just been able (Oct) to get hold of the engineers report and the other paperwork after 'haranging' the Geo. since his resignation in June. On inspection of the engineers report (dated 21 January 2008), it would appear that the E2,000 went on him providing the Geo. with the relevent specification for the addition of a loggia or portico. It would appear that he hasn't committed himself in writing to any comments about the existing structural integrity of the property.

Your query about the 'computo metrico': If this relates to a price per square metre, this is not the basis on which our contract was made. Alternatively, we settled for a price shedule of works to be undertaken with the builder.

The property is two story, double width single depth: 8 m x 5 m. The groundfloor had been used as an animal shelter and the upstairs, reached by an external staircase was living accommodation. The external staircase was removed and a new internal concrete staircase installed; together with a new loadbearing party and central wall (25 cm) thick. Also other divisional walls have been added and a reinforced concrete ring to the ground floor internal foundations! We have been there during many storms and in gale force winds and the roof hasn't leaked one bit!

At the end of the day the builder has our E12,000 in the bank and we feel that we are being held to ransom to have the property entirely re-roofed just to get the money spent when an overhaul may suffice.

Okay, it is possible that (from the date of your permission) you do have to comply with the thermal regulations, but (because of the size of the house - if I understand your post it totals about 80 sq m internally) I think you can argue this, (and additionally there are almost certainly ways of avoiding having to insulate the roof).

The document from the Regione is almost certainly the lodging of the engineers report. This will have been required for the portico work (and possibly for the internal structural work). A figure of €2000 isn't out of line. Frequently the engineer's report required with the application concerns itself exclusively with the new work (it sounds as if this is the case, but if the engineer has untypically 'proved' the whole structure you might have a problem if he has assumed some form of cordolo and a new roof). I wouldn't expect the engineer to have made a 'structural survey' in the way which would happen in the UK - unless he had been asked to, of course.

A computo metrico is exactly what you have described - a priced schedule of works.

I think you on firm ground in simply saying to the new geometra that you do not want to do the roof, and that you can't afford it. I'm a bit confused how the builder has got €12000 of your money - getting that back from him does sound like an uphill struggle, but I don't think it is connected with the roof!

Thanks Charles for your response. To clarify the E10,000 + IVA had to be paid as a deposit to the builder on the insistence of the old Geo. before the builder would even start work initially. This was ment to be used up in the final stages of the work schedule, which included the roof overhaul as well as other works. The goalposts have obviously shifted and he has got his sights set on getting another E6,000 out of us for the roof work alone.

This aside, could you tell me what alternative to a cordolo there are to achieve strengthening that would conform to earthquake regs?

The cordolo or retrofitted ring beam is a mandatory required for new builds, extensions, change-of-use renovations from say agricultural to dwelling and heavily influenced by the current structural integrity of the building independent of its use.

If I am doing a structural survey or a submittal to the office of civil engineering (ex genio civile) it is very important to evaluate this potential weak point around the eaves level where there may be dangerous bulges from lateral thrust (ie inclined beams pushing the wall outwards) or a horizontal "thump" of an earthquake/tremor that may cause localized collapsing.

I think it is hard or impossible to provide answers over such a forum without seeing the individual case in question and even then it's not easy. In any case, do not rule out the employment of tie irons if you're looking for alternative solutions.

Hope this helps.
David
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