10940 Permission to Renovate out-buildings

I don't know if planning regs are different from comune to comune, but ours in San Severino Marche told us we'd need to start the work within two years of getting the DIA (but that there were no deadlines to finish the work).

I don't know either (not very helpful, is it!) if the DIA is tied to a name and can't be transferred to, say, a buyer's name, although this sounds plausible. Perhaps what you can do is just reapply for the new DIA for the outbuildings (in your name and using the same plans). It only costs about €50 or so to lodge and that might give you your 2 years to start the works. You'll need to get a few extras I think if you do this, such as an updated INAIL declaration. Your project manager should be able to tell you all the docs you need to do the DIA.

Personally, I'd be more worried about paying money for renovation when I didn't already have full ownership, but if you've got everything covered legally you should be OK.

A DIA is valid for 3 years. I do not think the name of the applicant makes any difference whatsoever, because the DIA is granted according to the Piano Regolatore, threfore is not subjective but objective. Unless the piano regolatore has changed since the DIA has been granted you should be able to reapply and get it in your name. The best way to deal with this is just to get in touch with the uffico tecnico in your comune and speak to the officers.
How good is your italian?

Paola

My Italian is coming along very slowly, certainly not at a level whereby I can discuss this with the local comune, but I have an Italian colleague who may be able to speak to them on my behalf.

Paola,
Just a quick question, does the fact that the property was used for farming, and therefore the building uses are agricultural have any effect on the planning.

Planning permission or DIA, as Paola says, are granted to the building, not to the owner - unless the owner, being a farmer has taken advantage of some special laws and regs that are not applicable to "non farmers". Otherwise, the PP or DIA in the farmer's name can be simply changed into another name with a "voltura", upon submission of the relevant deed. When you are granted Planning permission, you have to start the work within 1 year and complete within 4 years.

Many thanks Marco, I will clarify whether there are any specific laws in place for farmers with the comune.

Simon,
if the buildings were agricultural you could have not converted them into houses anyway, there is a cambio di destinazione d'uso involved (change of use) and usually an issue with the volumetria added. So I would guess that the DIA was granted without taking into consideration the "agricultural" factor.
Good luck

P

Are you rennovating without having full ownership ? That was to save time as you seem to have waited for a long time to get to the final act.
None of my business really just curiuos.

In our region DIAs seem to come through Geometre and cost at least 700 euros ( including taxes and stamp ) but I did read somewhere that a few comunes are letting clients do their own for small jobs.It sounds as if you are doing a large scale restoration and a DIA is usually only for things like new roof/windows bathroom etc.Full planning permission is more expensive i believes.

anyway good luck with it all

You need a professional to get a Dia, it can be a geometra, an architect or an Engineer.
You need a DIA when you are undertaking manutenzione straordinaria, that is a substantial refurbishment that involves new bathrooms, changing the location of services, etc. You do not need a DIA for small jobs of refurbishment. You need a full planning permission when a change of Volumetria is involved, or a change of use, etc.

...I carry on with my personal battle: yes, for a DIA you can hire a geometra, an architect or an engineer. But why a geometra?? Do you just need to stake out your property? From a previous post:
"...Obviously I am biased, but I will never stop asking all you people in this forum if you really know who a "geometra" is. If you need technical advise to repair your property or your roof, why do you hire a geometra and not an architect or an engineer? Do you know that a geometra is someone with as little qualification as the equivalent "A" levels in the UK - so in most cases you will deal with a person who has completed school at the age of 18, with NO FURTHER QUALIFICATION! It's a long story why in Italy we have such an undefined figure, but I thought this would explain some of the problems you are coming across. An architect/engineer would know immediately if a roof needs repair or replacement; as they would know whether to use a "cordolo" or not - and they would know that a reinforced concrete is not used anymore: too heavy and rigid. There are better ways of building cordoli. The fact that a geometra does not know these things should not be a surprise, now that you know their training background. Architects make architecture, geometras can at the most make a survey or stake out a boundary...."
Sorry if this is off topic, but here we need to clarify the matter once and for all.

Look, I am an architect, so I could not agree more!
Jokes aside, a geometra is someone who went what in Italy we calla professional secondary school, where for 5 years they study building and construction. after that the young geometra works in a practice for 2 or more years then sits an exam to become a chartered geometra. I would translate a geometra as a UK surveyor.
My guess would be that if you are looking for a practical advice, and to save some money you would go for a geometra, if you are looking for flair and added value then an Architect would be best. Engineers should be consulted for structural problems.
Hope this clarifies the problem...

Paola

Thanks Paola, but I don't agree with your statement "to save some money you would go for a geometra". It's not a question of saving money, it's a question of addressing an issue (architecture, renovation, design...) to the relevant professional. As you say, the geometra, equivalent of a UK surveyor, has not been trained to design, renovate, make architecture, but only to survey. Have you ever seen the '60 and '70 building in the outskirts of all the italian cities, built almost exclusively by geometras??
And they are not cheaper, this is a myth! Wake up, all of you in this forum: to renovate your houses you need an architect!! (then of course there are bad architects and good ones...like in any other profession - but if you start with a geometra, you have employed the wrong professional)

I'n not clear from your post, Simon, whether you already have in place permissions for the conversion (change of use) of the agricultural buildings. If the buildings don't already have the permissions, [B]I would take notice of what your builder is saying, and not go ahead to the atto before you have thrahed this through comprehensively with your solicitor[/B]. (I'm thinking about the possibility that the farmer - if he has a substantial landholding from which he is selling you a few bits - is able to take advantage of agevolations designed to repopulate the countryside which depend on ownership of a large agricultural holding).

Think that despite the comments from both the architects here, the situation in Italy in my field of expertise, is totally limited. Maybe, its just disinterest, or maybe just lack of knowledge. I had an architect here who stated to a customer that the water comes in from the ground loops and then is heated by electricity to reach the required temperature. She did not have a clue how a geothermal system worked....... says a lot for the extra education.

As I said before there are good and bad architects, like in every profession. But you are right, maybe most architects don't know how geotermia works....after all this is a mechanical engineer's field. My point was: what is the geometra's field? Survey - not architecture.

If the farmer as a coltivatore diretto was converting the outbuilding as fabbricati rurale they must be done in his name. You as a 'normal person' wont be able to convert buildings for agricultural use into civile abitazione. its used as a way to build almost double the allowed cubatura on agricultural land

Sorry Marco, I think you misunderstood my comment, It was that why should an architect say that a system is no good, because she has no knowledge of it. I had a geometre here last week, who said he did not know how a "pompe di calore" worked and could I deal with the customer direct, as it was completely over his head.
It is not a system that needs either an architect or geometre, so therefore they should not comment in any way if they do not understand how it operates.

I like what you've done with Villa Pineta Marco - very sleek.

[quote=latoca;102824]Look, .............My guess would be that if you are looking for a practical advice, and to save some money you would go for a geometra, if you are looking for flair and added value then an Architect would be best. Engineers should be consulted for structural problems....................Paola[/quote]

What a succinct explanation of why o use a geometra.
As a [UK] Chartered Civil Engineer, I use local geometras on work at my Italian holiday home because they have good reputations and more importantly, they know how the local Commune works.

Unless it really is an arty-farty project, I would always be wary of using an architect, on cost grounds if nothing else.

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2 things I was taught very early in my studies at Uni [in the last century] were;-

1. An Engineer is the man who can build for £1 what any fool can build for £2, and an architect can do for £10
2. An Engineer is the man who can make an architects designs actually stand up.

[quote=alan h;102888]
1. An Engineer is the man who can build for £1 what any fool can build for £2, and an architect can do for £10
2. An Engineer is the man who can make an architects designs actually stand up.[/quote]

Oh dear. To look on the upside of your comments, I suppose I should admit to being pleasantly surprised that you are a civil engineer.....I'd got you down as a QS! :bigergrin:

Seems that there are more architects in this thread than you can shake a bridge at!

[quote=Charles Phillips;102895]..............I'd got you down as a QS! :bigergrin: ........[/quote]

Blimey - you know how to insult an Engineer - calling me a 'brick counter'!!!

[quote=Charles Phillips;102895]..............Seems that there are more architects in this thread than you can shake a bridge at![/quote]

Wibbly Wobbly bridge over the Thames in London - designed by an Architect and [finally] mended by Engineers!

[quote=alan h;102896]
Wibbly Wobbly bridge over the Thames in London - designed by an Architect and [finally] mended by Engineers![/quote]

I rather thought that Arup had 'signed it off' initially. :veryconfused:

On a more serious note, I never liked the bullying tactics of the Very Big Name Architects towards firms like Arup: the engineers got put in the position of being the boring risk asessment spoilsports, (but nowadays 'risk assessment spoilsports' are the flavor of the month. Your time has come!) :smile:

Architects and Engineers have different vital roles in the building industry and there should be a better understanding and cooperation between them, particularly in certain cases. My father-in-law was a prominent civil engineer, but two of his children (including my husband) were architects.... so we had quite a bit of fun with discussions.....

[quote=alan h;102888]What a succinct explanation of why o use a geometra.
As a [UK] Chartered Civil Engineer, I use local geometras on work at my Italian holiday home because they have good reputations and more importantly, they know how the local Commune works.

Unless it really is an arty-farty project, I would always be wary of using an architect, on cost grounds if nothing else.

-------------

2 things I was taught very early in my studies at Uni [in the last century] were;-

1. An Engineer is the man who can build for £1 what any fool can build for £2, and an architect can do for £10
2. An Engineer is the man who can make an architects designs actually stand up.[/quote]

I don't know where you heard about the good reputation of geometras!! Just go around one of the many italian cities ouskirts built in the '60s and '70s...the horror and appalling quality will be in front of you. 95% of those project were signed by geometras.
"..they know how the local Comune works"...mhh, it sounds like a bit of mafia's methods appreciation here. The Comune works with national and regional Laws that are public and known to everyone. You are insinuating a kind of "under -the-table" friendship between geometras and Comune's officers? And why not with architects??...Sorry but with these sort of ideas Italy will not go forward and people like you will continue to complain about how corrupt the country is.
There will be more to say about "on cost grounds if nothing else" (geometras and architects fees are very similar, esp now that by Law fees have become negotiable under the minimum) but enough for now. To the next episode.
I like the 2 quotes about Engineers! :-)
(BTW I have many geometras friends..!)

Marco,

perhaps you could clear something up for me? I understood that if you engaged an architect, s/he in turn would also need to use a geometra (so effectively you are paying twice). Or have I misunderstood and you can employ just an architect and there will at no stage be a geometra employed by the architect?

Also, myself and my ex-husband looked into the difference between geometras and surveyors very closely as he had almost finished his surveying degree when we left the UK and wanted to know what kind of equivalency there was between the two professions. They are quite different in the respect that a surveyor's studies encompass some areas that would fall into the engineer's area here in Italy e.g. beam loadings etc. These are not studied by geometra's here. My understanding from our research is that geometras are less technically educated (backed up by the fact that a surveyor has to have a post 18 education - usually a degree) than surveyors in the UK. Hence the fact that in most domestic building projects in the UK (for example an extension), the average person is unlikely to use/encounter a structural engineer whereas they are much more commonplace in Italy. This is why surveyors are the people that carry out surveys. If I wanted to know if a house here was structurally sound I would ask an engineer.

So, saying a geometra is the same as a surveyor is a bit unfair on surveyors!

Uh Alan, that is quite harsh and certainly not very thoughtful.
Anyway, we are getting into a debate that is very stereotypical (and not very useful).
I was trying to give an explanation of what a Geometra is. I am an Architect as well Marco, so I do think there is added value in hiring an Architect rather than a Geometra, but I must admit that there are some very experienced Geometras out there that know how to do their job, especially in terms of catasto, paperwork, etc.

To clarify: when you hire an architect you do not need to hire a geometra. Also, geometras can do a bit of structural calculations, so as surveyors thay learn how to calculate a beam, or simple concrete structures.
So do we as architects, but I would never calculate a structure, I would always get my drawings to a structural engineer!

Paola

[quote=marco62;102908]I don't know where you heard about the good reputation of geometras!! ................)[/quote]

I think you misunderstood my post - what I meant was that I chose the geometras that I used by asking around locally for recommendations, and looked at examples of their work. Local recommendations are a very good indication of who 'knows their stuff'

[I would use the same process if I ever needed an Architect]

.

Hi Charles,
The permission is already in place that the agriculture buildings can be converted into habitable spaces, the issue I am being told is that when we sign the deeds and the property is transferred into my name the permission no longer applies. Just trying to get to the bottom of it whilst my solicitor is on holiday.

regards,

Simon

Simon, if you have obtained the change of use (from agricultural to residential) through a "Piano di Recupero" or "Piano Attuativo", once this is approved, the change of name/ownership should not effect the Planning Permission. If the farmer has obtained the PP with special benefits (ie, not paying building/conversion tax), then you simply have to pay for these retroactively when you purchase. Otherwise, I am sure the PP is still valid for 3 years, you just apply for a change of name/ownership.

Simon, I am concerned that you have been badly advised in your plans to go ahead with the work on the back of ownership by a farmer. I guess that the issue is one of an 'Azienda Agricola' particularly if your property is in a recognised European distressed zone. Agriculture in distressed areas is highly supported in Europe including allowing for farm buildings to be renovated into habitable units for exclusinve use of Agritourism. If you purchase the property from the farmer and do not continue to run it as a farm then all permissions will probably be revoked. This rule has been recently set up (Prodi 2) to ensure people did not get round the very tough rules on renovating farm buildings and turning them into habitable units.

You could look into becoming a part time farmer when you eventually complete the property and do the rogito!

Good luck with this and check deeply into the work that has already been done as that might well be compromised also.

this thread provides the almost habitual debate on architect versus geometra and i have to say that Alan H most probably provides the securest wisdom on how to choose... this is a country where even doctors and surgeons ...qualified ... can purchase said qualification... a university pass here means little in terms of anything worth mentioning... a slur maybe on the many that do struggle work hard and pass... but how can you tell the difference ... like many professions both geometras and architects are very often based on a caste type system ... birth and who to often being more important than anything to do with capability... and for all intents and purposes untouchable via legal redress if things do go wrong... which is why although people suggest this happens everywhere in the world in Italy it has been refined to a degree where incompetence can never be challenged so even the worst idiot can practice if he knows the right people... once again the securest route to my mind is Alan H's logical approach...

Yes I agree with the above and would only add please once you've bought your pile of bricks dont rush into the project ! It may well feel like a frustrating process when you are trying to realise your dream home but the person/s you meet immediatly may not be the right people to use Geometre, Architects or Engineers!!

I find it staggering that people are handing over entire 100,000.000 euro projects to the people recomended by agents without really looking into their suitabilty or qualifications! Dont do it ! Ask other people in your region who have similar projects and use that information to inform your decisions.

As tempting as it may be to get the ball rolling as soon as you've signed the Rogito you may well regret your haste!

Yes I couldn't agree more! Search for the best you can get: the price is the same, but the service isn't! And don't always trust agents: a lot of them are tied to their architects and make a cut on their fee...which consequently goes up :(. Important projects need professional, qualified people, not just the first available.
[quote=myabruzzohome;103514]Yes I agree with the above and would only add please once you've bought your pile of bricks dont rush into the project ! It may well feel like a frustrating process when you are trying to realise your dream home but the person/s you meet immediatly may not be the right people to use Geometre, Architects or Engineers!!

I find it staggering that people are handing over entire 100,000.000 euro projects to the people recomended by agents without really looking into their suitabilty or qualifications! Dont do it ! Ask other people in your region who have similar projects and use that information to inform your decisions.

As tempting as it may be to get the ball rolling as soon as you've signed the Rogito you may well regret your haste![/quote]