10688 Testing time for foreign children in Italy?

Well on a quick reading of the article, it strikes me a quite an astute move. I know of a single mother with a daughter in her early teens who moved to France a couple of years ago, and it was nigh impossible for the daughter to integrate properly into the French school system. They had no other option but to return to the UK.

Well if it's meant in a good practical way it might not be a bad thing.
Is the scheme aimed only at 'non EU' immigrants?
Aren't they trying something similar in the UK? :veryconfused:

But what are the real reasons for this? Is it to help immigrant children catch up with their Italian - or - as I suspect (Lega Nord) - is it to hold back immigrant kids from "holding back" Italian kids?

It stinks. :yes:

The best way for anyone to integrate into any society is exactly that - integrate!

It seems a quick solution to saving money (no support teachers) but also ensuring that the voters don't complain. People that don't speak the language properly or who aren't citizens don't vote!

There was a very interesting debate on this issue on Radio 24 last Friday morning. So interesting in fact, although I'd arrived at my destination (the local market!), I sat in the car to hear the end of it. At the outset, I thought it was a good idea as I can't for the life of me imagine how difficult it must be for non-Italian speaking children to cope at school. And this view was supported by an Italian woman who rang in to say that she had found the equivalent system invaluable when living in France, where her husband had been working when their daughter was quite young. But other, quite vocal callers, made the point that taking immigrant children out of regular classes only reinforces in the eyes of all the others just how different these kids are, and further handicaps any possible chance they may have of integrating and being regarded as regular Italian bambini. V

My (English) 9 year old daughter has been at Italian school now for a year. She really struggled with the language side of things for almost the whole of that first year, but from a friendship point of view was accepted totally and immediately by the Italian children. She might have found the language learning easier if she had been in a separate class with more formal language teaching, but both she and our family would have been way further back in terms of integrating with the local community and making friends. The process may have been less effort for both her, us as parents & the teachers if she had been separated out, but would certainly not have been as succesful. She's now really doing well with the language and has the best accent of all of us - it was definitely worth persevering in the main system.

perhaps the way forward is for children who do not speak Italian to be taken out in small groups to have extra tuition in the language, for example when the rest are doing history or geography. They can then be part of the class for sport, art etc where language is less important and they can still feel part of the group. This is what happened to British children in Belgium when we lived there (taken out for extra Dutch lessons) and it is common place in UK schools for children whose English falls short (not just immigrants). It really doesn't take children very long to learn the language so it could be seen as a temporary arrangement.

[QUOTE=F Bower;100125]perhaps the way forward is for children who do not speak Italian to be taken out in small groups to have extra tuition in the language, for example when the rest are doing history or geography. They can then be part of the class for sport, art etc where language is less important and they can still feel part of the group. QUOTE]

This already happens in many schools in Italy - it is government funded and all non Italian children are entitled to such extra lessons.

I'm with F Bower on this one - additional classes are ok, but exclusion from normal classes is a dangerous way to go. Some of the criticism on the Italian blog I saw was that although people accepted the need for additional language help it was pointed out that a government minister saying that should be so was, in Italy, never accompanied by action or money to actually make it happen.

The schools I teach at are on strike next Thursday over reforms to the system which will cut back teacher numbers and put education back 20 years: so my colleague told me this morning, - so I find the possibility of extra help for language learning pretty unlikely.

I am fairly sure nothing will come out of this.... it would be crazy!

Hi I have 2 children in Italian State Schools. I have to say for a small town the school went to great lengths to help them integrate. They helped with the italian language, by getting in a support teacher who helped them in class, and when it came to the english lesson they were taken out to enhance on their italian.
Now 2 years later, they have no help, have a good command of their italian language, and the only lessons they are excluded from are their religion lessons. In this time they are allowed to do their homework, or have extra exercises for their Italian.

The school last year did do a a course in the afternoon for the integration of foreign students. The only thing it caused was upset, as there were alot of non- eu children. They were trying to help them with the english. The idea was good but not well thought through.

One thing i have to say for the school concerned after 6 months, they altered their ideas of the second language. Every Italian child has to learn english, and when they move to the scuola media they will either learn french or german as a third language.

If they change the ruling, in my opinion, it will hold back children like my own, who have worked hard to were they have got to, and not help. But at the end of the day it is down to the school whether they impliment the ruling or not

Gill

Hmm.

If there are one or two such children with no Italian whatsoever in a class it is not a problem. They can integrate in six months or so, maybe a year to really get up to speed.

But in a class where up to 25-30% of the children speak no Italian? Given the high standards demanded of my son's class (he just started the prima media, or first year of secondary school), I cannot imagine how the teachers would cope, especially given the huge part the family plays (or is expected to play) in supplementing the child's education (aiuto compiti etc). If the child's family also speaks little or no Italian, the problem is compounded.

In my son's year there is currently a 14 year old "extracomunitario" among the class of 11 year olds, who has been "bocciato" - failed - three years running (from the media level onwards, if a child does not perform well - I think from this year just an "insufficiente" in just one subject is enough to fail them - they do not progress on to the next year. This happens to Italians too, not just the children of immigrants, and the reasoning behind it, I presume, is so the children who are keeping up don't get held back by them, not because of xenophobia.

Something tells me this 14 year old, who is practically shaving and a head and half taller than the rest of his class, would have fared much better with perhaps a year in the special classes they are talking about providing. As it is, I think he is just waiting to reach the legal age before he can drop out of school altogether without ever having got further than the first year.

I agree with what Garda Homes has to say. I know of a similar situation in our scuola media. I personally was lucky i had taught the children some basic italan and they where young enough to pick it up quickly.

As for the 2 children i know in the secondary school, they are having a rough time, not only integrating, but with their study. These have not been so lucky. I apprieciate it is harder when the children are older, not only on a social level but also on an educational level.

We were lucky, the staff were able to talk and discuss what would be best for all of us, concerning schooling, homework etc. I had a great italian teacher in the uk and she gave us all, how can i say " italian breaking in lessons and what to do and expect" I was also able to speak Italian so could comunicate, even if it was badly to start with. At the time they started school they were the only english in the whole 3 schools. But now there are more english and other foreign children arriving, it makes it harder for the school to deal with, so the external classes are good for part of the time, to aid with the education. but a balance has to be found so they are not excluded from the socialising and integration.

The last two posts are so true.
I think it is a very difficult situation especially as the number of non Italian speakers atttending school is rapidly increasing. In our local primary school, 1/3 (10 out of 30) of the current Primary 1 year are not Italian, some do speak Italian to a reasonable standard and others none at all. When my daughter was in Primary 1, six years ago, she was one of 3 non Italian children but all had lived in Italy for several years so all spoke a good standard of Italian. It does make it very difficult for all concerned particularly as these children are increasingly from cultural backgrounds where Mum stays at home all day and is not encouraged or is even prevented from going out to learn Italian in a class or social situation. This means the child receives little or no familial support and it really is left to the school to cope as best they can. As has been said by others, without extra assistance it is often these children who end up failing a year and having to repeat, this in itself does not help their self confidence nor their integration. The current situation where children receive extra Italian tuition whilst the majority are learning subjects such as history, goepraphy seeems to be the best solution but clearly even this is not perfect.

[quote=juliancoll;99459]But what are the real reasons for this? Is it to help immigrant children catch up with their Italian - or - as I suspect (Lega Nord) - is it to hold back immigrant kids from "holding back" Italian kids?

It stinks. :yes:

The best way for anyone to integrate into any society is exactly that - integrate![/quote]
It's terrible. Unfortunately this law is for "remind" the immigrant kids, that they're foreign. I don't know precisely what the others country know, but with this Minister of Public Education, Mariastella Gelmini, I've got fear for my future.
(I'm a student of the first year of Italian secondary school specializing in scientific studies).
Before this government the Italian public school was horrible, only the Primary school was good, then these laws the italian public school is dead.
And only the rich people will can study.

Mariastella Gelmini - is she the one who got the new law through about the private schools that caused all the demonstrations?

You are right, JC. She is the one.

[quote=juliancoll;103843]Mariastella Gelmini - is she the one who got the new law through about the private schools that caused all the demonstrations?[/quote]
Yes, and she's the minister that doesn't listen to the people but makes the laws for the economy in an important problem, as the school. If it is right, the minister of public education will be the same of the economy.

Adhellos - dimmi - which politician ever listens to the people? Vorrei che ascoltassero la mia proposta! :bigergrin:

I missed most of this thread while I was away. So here is my late response.
A specialised class to help newcoming students from a non-Italian background until they reach the level needed to be able to participate in regular courses is an excellent idea, providing the school endeavours to integrate those children with the rest of the students several times a day. I believe it is far much more traumatic for a child and disruptive for the rest of the students and the teacher to have someone in the class who is not able to understand what is being said. A specialist teacher of Italian as a foreign language, may be able to help that student more effectively and rapidly. And this will ensure that the child will have the right foundation studies to continue with the others. In general, children adapt very easily and all what may be needed is a few weeks or months of dedicated attention.
I have heard stories from Italian parents about the problems they have with these mixed classes where perhaps more than 25% of the students belong to several different nationalities and where the school lacks the resources to deal with the situation. It would only be fair to take into account the needs of the Italian children as well as the foreigners.
In education there are many ways of fostering integration. Some simple ideas such as apointing an Italian child to act as a "special friend" for the newcomer is a basic way to help this type of programme to become a success.
We also have to take into account the special socio-economic realities of the foreign child. Some families are able to help enormously. Others, due to lack of education, or resources, or time, are totally useless. Some parents may even lack a basic education so there is very little that they can do to help their child. Consequently, all the weight is put on the shoulders of the school and the teachers and they need to be helped to cope with the situation.
Consequently, in my opinion, the new rules and regulations may not be bad. It all depends on the way they are applied. And for this to succeed, what is needed is to educate the educators first and make them more sensitive about special needs.

Mmh.. no, there isn't a politician listens to the people in the history, I think....:err:
But I wanted to express a different concept... The school is the base of the future as the economy is the base of the present. We can't superimpose two things that they're so different. Because we risk to forget that even if we resolve the economy's problems now, we haven't got opportunities to continue a good way to the future..

I don't know if I express this concept very well, because I've got it in my mind in italian. So, I'm sorry for my mistakes or for some words that I don't use in the right way.

I don't think I have understood you completely - please try again to explain what you mean. If you get stuck with the English - we can try to understand if you write it in Italian

La scuola è il futuro di un paese e non si devono togliere soldi (money) alla scuola perchè se si risolve la crisi economica in questo modo oggi, in futuro non ci saranno persone adatte a gestire l'economia.

"The school (or education in general) is the future of a country and they should not cut subsidies to education because, if you try to solve the current economic crisis in this manner, in the future there will be nobody able to manage the economy". I think that this is what you mean adhellos and keep in mind that I am not a native speaker of neither Italian, nor English.
I think that we would all agree with your statement; however, I believe that we are getting off the main topic here, which is whether to integrate or not foreign students with Italian students from the moment they (the foreign students) start attending an Italian school. Actually, to create special migrant education classes for non-Italian students will be more expensive than trying to integrate them into the mainstream.

Thanks Adhellos - it was as I thought, but I just wanted to be sure before replying that I agree with you. However, I'm sure you know this problem is not exclusive to Italy and occurs worldwide. Policies are changed without warning, funds are reallocated and politicians play a juggling act with OUR money - usually at the expense of education or healthcare. It amazes me how they always have enough money for the latest super jets and bombs for the boys to play with though.

Don't worry too much about going off topic Gala - it often leads to more interesting things - especially when a thread has been dormant for some time.

We could keep on discussing Italian education in general or start a new thread on the topic. I think that there is still a lot to say about the main topic and I would like to read more comments from parents who currently have their children at a school in Italy.
I was also concerned that perhaps Adhellos was having problems understanding what had been said.
I basically agree that to cut funding in both education and healthcare is a recipe for disaster. And I would severely reduce all military budgets.

[quote=Gala Placidia;103924]"The school (or education in general) is the future of a country and they should not cut subsidies to education because, if you try to solve the current economic crisis in this manner, in the future there will be nobody able to manage the economy". I think that this is what you mean adhellos and keep in mind that I am not a native speaker of neither Italian, nor English.
I think that we would all agree with your statement; however, I believe that we are getting off the main topic here, which is whether to integrate or not foreign students with Italian students from the moment they (the foreign students) start attending an Italian school. Actually, to create special migrant education classes for non-Italian students will be more expensive than trying to integrate them into the mainstream.[/quote]

Thanks very much Gala Placida, my english isn't very good, especially for these concepts.

Just keep on posting Adhellos, you manage very well and it is great to have the opinion of a native Italian in the Forum.