10718 Old vs New System PDS/Residency

Just seems that you have to make sure you are still registered with the Anagraphe and that is all that is required. Proof of income....... health cover (wife got an E121 from the UK) and then it goes from there. Marc put a sticky on about the new requirements and it seems to be fairly straightforward.

If you have your residency all sorted out you just have to make sure that you apply for your permanent residency at the 5 year mark. I have heard of some (here we go again!) communes that insist that you must have handed in your PdS (or CdS) to the issuing office - but it is all a little unclear. The best way is to apply for your permanent residency certificate before your PdS has expired - if you can, that is. Once you have your permanent residency certificate, you can (almost) rest easy - unless there is a change in the UK's (or Italy's) status within the EU, that is...

Just to clariyfy nardini please, application for permanant residency at your local comune?, one day I will get my head round all this but by then will probably be too old to care!
A

Once you have lived, [U]legally registered[/U], in Italy for 5 years, you can apply for permanent resident status with the anagraf in your local municipio.

The actual wording is as follows:

[quote=Residence right for EU nationals - Directive No 38/2004 and Legislative Decree No 30 of 3rd February 2007]
An EU national who lived on the national territory legally and on an uninterrupted basis, except for short periods in accordance with the relevant legislation, acquires a right of permanent residence which entails a permanent registration with the NHS.

To be registered, the individual should produce the residence certificate issued by the relevant Local Authority and stating that he/she is entitled to a permanent residence.

In view of the above, the individual shall have no obligation to retain the requirements for the recognition of the right to residence set forth in Legislative Decree No 30/2007.

According to the above mentioned Interior Ministry Circular, the continuity of the individual's residence can be established through the latter's registration with the National Registry. Also, a legal stay of the EU national means that, during his/her five-year stay, he/she lived on the territory according to the requirements set forth in Legislative Decree No 30/2007 and was never removed from the country.

The continuity of his/her stay remains unaltered as long as his/her absences - if any - from the territory did not exceed six months yearly overall, or exceeded this period because of the discharge of military duties, or if the absence was up to 12 consecutive months for serious reasons, such as pregnancy and maternity; a serious illness; a course of studies or vocational training, or a secondment to another Member State or third country for work. His/her stay loses the character of continuity if the individual is removed from the country.

In any event, the entitlement to a permanent residence is forfeited if the absences from the national territory exceed 2 consecutive years.

In calculating the five years of residence, previous periods of residence shall be considered, including those preceding the date on which Legislative Decree 30/2007 came into effect.[/quote]

Definitely worth pursuing, I think...

It is an interesting question this one. At the moment, for a first time arriver in Italy, I would say (from the point of view of a Moroccan or Algerian), that being an ex-communitari gives you more 'rights' than you get as an EU citizen. For sure to jump through the hoops to get a PdS as an ex-communitari (on which there is a numerical limit) is a big challenge, but once you have got one you can (even without a job) buy into the Italian NHS for very little money (for example).

I was following something (can't remember where, but very recently) which suggested that although an EU citizen does not need a PdS, they can still apply for one and get one. Now, to my mind, and as far as I can judge according to the way the legislation is framed, the possession of a PdS is 'the gold standard'. It's all about how national and EU laws interact, and depends on individual circumstances whether it is worth one's while punting on the 'newcomer - not telling you where I'm from' pitch. But is is an issue.

Thats interesting Charles, we both have the PDS, but what I dont understand and someone may explain is if the need has been abolished and you now only need to prove to your local comune your ability to sustain yourself here, and forgive me if I am being simplistic, but are they still available and what would be the real merit in having one?.
A

No, angie, your question is far from being 'simplistic'. I've only just become aware that anybody (including EU citizens) have the option of applying for a PdS. It isn't terribly easy, in fact it is quite time consuming and awkward, so most EU citizens will use the 'fast track' route and simply become residents. However, being in possession of a PdS grants you (in Italian law, as far as I can see) more rights than you enjoy simply by virtue of being an EU citizen. For example, having a PdS gives you the right to buy a car!

The fast track EU route could (in certain circumstaces) be disadvantageous. No doubt it is all down to legislators not writing their national laws in a sufficently precise manner, and the EU laws (particularly as regards health insurance) having had the completely reverse effect than intended. (There is no conspiracy or political agenda in that move, simply a matter of unintended consequences - I base that opinion on discussions with EC lawyers).

So - everything is a minefield, and taking the obvious route through it isn't always to your advantage!

Hi,

At the risk of confirming how little I know can you tell me what PdS stands for so I can look into it?

Grazie

Thanks

[quote=Jinty;99928]Hi,

At the risk of confirming how little I know can you tell me what PdS stands for so I can look into it?
Grazie
Thanks[/quote]

[B]Permesso di Siggiorno[/B] (Leave to stay - in the country)...limited time validity.
CdS = Carta di Soggiorno ...long term time validity.

[quote=piedmont_phil;99849]I wonder if anyone has advice on this one.
We applied and got a PDS 4 years ago and with that our residency with the local commune. The PDS was valid for 3 years (or 2?) and has now expired. Of course in the meantime the system changed and (as I understand it) one now does the same exercise in the local commune.
Question is does one have to do anything else? PDS - not required for EU citizens any more, so in theory no need to renew the old one? Certificate of Residency - isued under old system, and it does not expire per se?
So do I need to renew or convert anything in the commune?[/quote]

Hi Phil. Just wondering how you got on with this?

I'm pretty much in the same situation and am converting my PDS into the new system at the comune. All seems pretty simple apart from the part where they are asking me to pay a marche di bollo.

Been hunting around the net for more information on this as it seems against an eu citizens rights to have to pay for any kind of permit to reside in another eu country.

I have found this very handy piece of information that explains that the new law (or bollo) is not in line with the rights of a eu citizen.

[url=http://www.meltingpot.org/articolo11941.html]MP - Imposta di bollo per i cittadini comunitari[/url]

Question is. How does one refuse to pay it and receive the new documents without paying a proffesional to fight my rights?

Anyone else had any experience with this.

The marche di bollo is not much (14.62) but the point of my rights of being an eu citizen in Italy is more important!

I know you are very well informed on this stuff, but are you asking by any chance the comune to give you "Un certifcato di residenza" (which is a piece of paper, and NOT the same thing as asking to be inscribed on the anagrafe, which, as you say, should be free).

To get one of these certficates you DO need to pay the marca di bollo (unless you need the certificate for certain limited applications, when you can ask for it in carta commune).

(A short and not comprehensive discussion on this at
[url]http://www.comuni.it/servizi/forumbb/viewtopic.php?t=55833&sid=0e189d85d05e0d65ac9375291ac2d95b[/url] )

[quote=Charles Phillips;107621]I know you are very well informed on this stuff, but are you asking by any chance the comune to give you "Un certifcato di residenza" (which is a piece of paper, and NOT the same thing as asking to be inscribed on the anagrafe, which, as you say, should be free).

To get one of these certficates you DO need to pay the marca di bollo (unless you need the certificate for certain limited applications, when you can ask for it in carta commune).

(A short and not comprehensive discussion on this at
[url=http://www.comuni.it/servizi/forumbb/viewtopic.php?t=55833&sid=0e189d85d05e0d65ac9375291ac2d95b]Comuni d'Italia :: Leggi argomento - MARCHE DA BOLLO SU CERTIFICATI DEMOGRAFICI[/url] )[/quote]

Thanks for the reply Charles, Just updated the link in my original post as i pointed it to the wrong article so click on that and it should explain a bit more.

No its not the certificate that i require, it's the renewal of my carta soggiorno. (Now called 'Attestato Di Dimora Abituale'

From my reading of many threads in this Forum regarding the rights any EU citizen has when deciding to move to another EU country, it looks as if there is a bit of confusion about this issue and everybody takes for granted many things which are not totally correct. I found this useful link which clearly explains any doubst anyone may have and I think that it would be useful to have a look at it:

[url=http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/living/index_en.html#11324_3]European Commission - Your Europe - Citizens - Living in another EU country[/url]

As for having to pay a "bollo" to get any renewal of documents or certificates it is common practice in many EU countries and it is the right of each individual country to apply any charges and taxes they wish.

My husband is an EU citizen who has had residency and a PdS for five years. This entitled him to request permanent residency ( a document entitled: attestazione di soggiorno permanente per i cittadini dell'unione europea) from the ufficio anagrafe at the local comune. They looked at his documents, asked for a marco da bollo of €14.62 (definitely not worth arguing over the principle of this, in my opinion), and provided the document on the spot. They also updated his shortly-to-expire carta d'identita' simply by stamping and redating the back of the card. Armed with the residency document, he was able to request renewal of his health card at the USL office in the local health centre.

Useful to know: if you have a tessera sanitaria which is due to expire, or is lost, you can request a replacement / renewal online via the Agenzia delle Entrate website simply by filling in your codice fiscale. It will be mailed to the address they have on file for you.

Gaia is right, 'local' European laws allow the bollo - it is after all a tax levied by the government, and as resident here you are obliged to pya taxes in your country of residence at the rates set by that country - I cant see someonw asking to pay 20% VAT in the UK on their ciggies instead of the local 17.5 (15%) rate....
Here the post office will not countenance any European applying for a PdS - only a CdS is an option, which if you have residence is no longer mandatory nor has any point as it only gives you the same benefits as residency.
Right of permanent residence should be the be all and end all as far as bits of paper go, and preclude the necessity for any other PdS, CdS, E111 and so on. I suppose though we will have to wait for 5 years from the time of the law changes on residency (March 2007) to find out if that is true. If you applied for residency before the law changes and the subsequent need to have private health insurance and autodecalre an income above 5061 euros, there should be no need for anything other than commuting your original residency permit to that of permanent resident - as you fulfil all the legal requirements for permanent status ie more than 5 years with as resident. But who knows....

[FONT=Arial]I moved house before my PdS expired and had to moved my residency from one comune to the new one. I had to prove my income and INPS contributions all over again even though I had a valid PdS. They insisted I hand in my PdS and I was given an "attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica di cittadino dell'unione europea" and it is valid for a "tempo indeterminato". My new carta d'identita' (issued at the same time) is valid for 5 years from the date of issue.

My question is this:

My original PdS expires in May as I will have had it for 5 years. At this point do I ask for an "attestazione di soggiorno permanente per i cittadini dell'unione europea" or is what I have the same thing?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Anyone got any idea?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Thanks all for your replies,

I think i may not of explained this very well.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Of course every european country has their own rates when talking about tax. The point here is that if an Italian has to pay it then you do too. That's fine and accepted but what i'm trying to make a point here is that this is a tax (bollo) that nether existed when the old system was in place (permesso soggiorno) for european citizens. This is an extra tax just for eu citizens wishing to stay legal in Italy. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][B]As per l'art 17 comma 3 del d.lgs n.30 del 2007 dispone il rilascio gratuito della carta di soggiorno permanente dei famillari e prevede altresi che l'iscrizione all'anagrafe dei cittadini comunitari avvenga gratuitamente.[/B][/SIZE][/FONT]
[B][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]An Italian is not required to pay this tax so why should i? As clearly stated above the carta di soggiorno was issued issued free of charge before so why should i pay now? (an Italian Law)[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Dont get me wrong the amount is so small to argue about but the point is that the new system is not inline with italy's own laws.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]The european directive 2004/38/CE (that italy agreed too) and also clearly states that that to obtain residency or permission to stay (if needed) in any eu member states should not include any costs.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]The problem here is that the l'agenzia delle entrate does not accept this and requires us european foreigners to pay the tax.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]So if you are happy to be discriminated just because you are a citizen of another european country living in Italy then thats fine but It's not political correct nor inline with european and some parts of Italian Law.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]I pay enough tax every month into the italian system from my wages so why should i pay more than an italian because i am foreign?[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Is that right?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]For those of you that understand Italian read the link that i posted above as it explains in more detail ([url=http://www.meltingpot.org/articolo11941.html]MP - Iscrizione anagrafica - Imposta di bollo per i cittadini comunitari[/url])[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Looking for information on this........... [/SIZE][/FONT]
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[quote=Penny;107634][FONT=Arial]I moved house before my PdS expired and had to moved my residency from one comune to the new one. I had to prove my income and INPS contributions all over again even though I had a valid PdS. They insisted I hand in my PdS and I was given an "attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica di cittadino dell'unione europea" and it is valid for a "tempo indeterminato". My new carta d'identita' (issued at the same time) is valid for 5 years from the date of issue.

My question is this:

My original PdS expires in May as I will have had it for 5 years. At this point do I ask for an "attestazione di soggiorno permanente per i cittadini dell'unione europea" or is what I have the same thing?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Anyone got any idea?[/FONT][/quote]

Yes once you have been a resident in Italy for 5 years or more you can apply for the permanent residency!

Would love to help but i'm going through the exact same process. Changed house, comune etc and the comune don't seem to know much about eu citizens with the old pds.

[FONT=Arial]And there was me thinking I'd jumped the last hurdle!

Good job I kept a photocopy of my old PdS then too.[/FONT]

Reading through that article, chillout, it seems to me that the comuni ask for the marca di bollo only if you want an attestation of your inscription on their register. Why do you need such an attestation? (Accepting that it is different from a Certificato in bollo, which sometimes Italians need to 'buy' from the comune, when autocertifcazioni isn't enough).

Clearly this stuff is interpreted differently by different comuni, but even though I've dealt with plenty of communitari post the 2007 changes in four different comuni, nobody has ever asked for, or been asked for any 'proof' of residence or dimora - nor any marca di bollo. Enough that they show up on the computer - (then if they wish, pay 5 or so Euros for the Carta d'Identita).

Do you mean that your comune won't accept your existence as a resident on their anagrafe without paying the bollo?

No. the new comune has already accepted me as a new resident. The problem is my carta soggiorno which i need to declare the new address.

They say that as the carta soggiorno no longer exists i need to proceed with 'Attestato di Dimora Abituale' or 'l'attestazione di regolarita del soggiorno' which they are telling me i need to pay 2 X bollo €14.62

I dont know why i need to this i thought this new system was supposed to be easier than the old questaora days but its giving me a headache!

To make things even more complex i can apply for a permenant residency in a few months so i dont see the sense in paying 2 x €14.62 and then again in a few months when i apply for permenant residency another €14.62

any ideas?

I agree with the comune, Carta di Soggiorno don't exist any more. But neither do I see why you should trouble yourself with an attestazione. If, in some dire future circumstance, you were ever asked for one of these, you might consider it worthwhile paying the marca di bollo to get you out of some potential bureaucratic hole!

Have you asked for a Carta d'Identita? I can't see any possible contingency where this (updated with your current address) wouldn't suffice. (I do accept that there is no obligation on you to get a Carta d'Identita, it is your choice, but it is quite useful, cheap, and they last ten years now).

yes, already have the Carta d'Identita and that will remain with me old address until i renew it as the comune does not change it automatically. To be safe i just tell them that i lost it and pay the €5 for a new one with the new address.

thanks for your help Charles.

Hmm, I think they'll change the Carta d'Identita on request - in fact I think they should have insisted that they changed it for you (and charged you the fiveish euros).

I don't think I have been much 'help' to you, and I agree with your resistance to anything which Italy isn't doing which it should be regarding EU regulations - but in the case of this attestazione it seems to me to be such a voluntary thing to request that it's okay by me to charge you for it, if you see what I mean.

I would advise you to get a new Carta d'Identita with the new address saying that you have misplaced the previous one.