11536 Healing Schism Pope Risks Another

Difficult one Lisa, and no doubt Gala will answer this in great depth tomorrow. Forgiveness is fundamentsl in the Christian Church and many might see this as a step forward.

However where theses four bishops are concerned, well, I'm not sure this action was justified, but then who am I to pass judgement??? And actually of course The Pope is German and was part of the Nazi youth Therefore their reinstatement perhaps was not a particularly wise move from a PR perspective.

I should add that although The Pope was part of the Hitler Youth, membership was compulsory for 14 year old. He was not very enthusiastic and didn't attend meetings.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;109220]Difficult one Lisa, and no doubt Gala will answer this in great depth tomorrow. Forgiveness is fundamentsl in the Christian Church and many might see this as a step forward.

However where theses four bishops are concerned, well, I'm not sure this action was justified, but then who am I to pass judgement??? And actually of course The Pope is German and was part of the Nazi youth Therefore their reinstatement perhaps was not a particularly wise move from a PR perspective.[/quote]

Sally, it doesn't seem difficult to pass judgement when Richard Williamson, a British-born cleric who in an interview [B]last week [/B]said he did not believe that six million Jews died in the Nazi gas chambers. He has also given interviews saying that the United States government staged the Sept. 11 attacks as a pretext to invade Afghanistan.

This is deplorable and goes against all efforts to modernize the Church in recent years. Another article which explains further:

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?_r=1&sq=Pope%20Benedict&st=cse&scp=2&pagewanted=print[/url]

I believe the massacre Lisa. My gut reaction is that The Pope should not have done this. Having said this I'm coming from a Church Of Scotland background albeit I'm not an active member of it nor any other faith.

It would be interesting to hear Israeli or Jewish views.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;109225]It would be interesting to hear Israeli or Jewish views.[/quote]

Hi Sally,

Did you have a chance to read the two articles I posted? Here is a quote from one of them. "Jewish groups criticized the decision to reinstate the men on Saturday, and the decision is sure to complicate talks between the Vatican and Israeli officials about a proposed papal trip to the Holy Land this year."

Jews are not the only ones who are unhappy with this reinstatement. Many liberal Catholics are as well.

I always think it is a great shame when people who are given the opportunity to make a difference to the lives of significant numbers of others don't use that opportunity positively. Leaders should look for opportunities to unite and move forwards.

as a person brought up as a catholic but upon growing a brain decided that despite the indoctrination i was perfectly capable of doing without the Vatican dictating my life this to me is just another of the reasons why i would never be part of any organised belief..... these sentiments apply only to me and i do not insist on anyone following in my footsteps.... so am not suggesting anyone with faith in anything rejects it on my account...

however this does come as little surprise and was widely condemned here in the newspapers... not the ones printed by the Vatican... Italians i n general do not like this Pope very much ... but he is following a trend and i do not believe unlike some that he is politically naive in what he is doing...

recent polls here showed a rising level of anti semitic feelings ... obvious amongst the extreme right... but there is also the extreme left which supports Palestinian extreme terrorist groups who are also now after Israel lasts efforts in the gaza strip growing in their anti semitic stance... this advanced onto main stream television here with a program on Anno Zero Rai 2 which was so extreme in its biased view of things that it led to complaints from both the Italian president and the leader of the house of parliament here publicly condemning the program and the Rai for its unbalanced reporting....

however these are strange times and the Vatican is a populist organisation.... always looking for new recruits... and also balancing its world presence ... cynical as i am ... i think that this action is part of an attempt to allow the church to remain in those areas where they are struggling against radical religious groups who are butchering catholic representatives and insisting on non christian religion for all.... there are many areas of the world where politically because of its collaboration with Jewish representatives in the past the Vatican and its people are no longer welcome... OK there is also a general anti christian theme in many of these actions but this gives a good excuse... i see this sort of action, the Vatican's anti Israeli stance over the recent conflict and many more subtle pronouncements being a long term plan on the part of the Vatican to retain its presence in many areas of the world

even more shame on its views being expressed in this way on this day.... luckily here in Italy today is marked with respect and honour by many people...

because of my cynical beliefs Vatican pronouncements and actions rarely bother me... i would say more positively a while back Fini... a member of a party with a very anti semitic background came out and apologised publicly for that parties past pronouncements and views... this to me is a far more important action and to my mind its the non religious people of the world that make the most significant steps in world peace, history and life in general...

Well, Sally put me on the spot regarding this thread... I have only read the article forwarded by Lisa C; however, I see it as an effort from the Vatican to try to get back those excommunicated Bishops into the mainstream and, in this way, perhaps to better control the house.
Ever since the problem with Cardinal Marcel Lefebvre started, there has been an internal division within the Church between conservatives and liberals. For those unfamiliar with the Cardinal, who is at the start of these discrepancies, here you have his biography:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre]Marcel Lefebvre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
To give you an in-depth comment it would be very difficult for me, as I am not an average Catholic. I respect the teachings of the Church and I try to follow its commandments; however, I am not blindfolded and I do know that the Church and the Pope can err because we are human beings, and it has happened many times in the past and will keep on happening, unfortunately.
I do not agree with Lefebvre's political positioning, although I must confess that I was in favour of keeping the old mass in Latin or at least give the possibility of having two versions of the mass for Catholics to choose from. Now, the Church has accepted this and it is normal that the Pope will try to call back those who were excommunicated for following Lefebvre's position. It is the "forgive and forget" commandment, as Sally has pointed out. But the excommunication relates to religious matters only, not political or intellectual positions, so the Church can still be against Richard Williamson's statements and position; however, he cannot be even reprimanded or admonished simply because he has been excommunicated, meaning that he has been segregated from the Catholic faith. So perhaps it is a strategy used for damage control.
I personally do not find that Pope Benedict is my favourite choice for St Peter's successor, but this is what we have and as a Catholic I must accept it. I only hope that the next Pope will be a younger person, with a different outlook and that he will be able to introduce those changes which are needed within the Church. And I do hope to live long enough to see it.

A Church representative was quoted in the papers as saying something along the lines of "Williamson may be a fool and a liar, but that isn't cause for excommunication".

Nonetheless, my own guess is that Pope Benedict and his advisors simply failed to grasp the offence that would be caused by remitting his excommunication.

Gala I'm sorry to have put you on the spot. Lisa I'm sorry too but I had skimmed the articles you had posted as I have this one but I have noted the first few lines of it.

POPE RESPONDS TO ISRAELI RABBIS

Jewish authorities threaten to sever ties

(ANSA) - Vatican City, January 28 - Pope Benedict XVI acted quickly on Wednesday to counter a threat from the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to indefinitely sever relations with the Vatican over his decision to lift the excommunication for a traditionalist bishop who continued to deny the existence of the Holocaust.

[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-01-28_128305227.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Rabbinate cuts ties with Vatican[/url]

[quote=Steve Graham;109386]A Church representative was quoted in the papers as saying something along the lines of "Williamson may be a fool and a liar, but that isn't cause for excommunication".

Nonetheless, my own guess is that Pope Benedict and his advisors simply failed to grasp the offence that would be caused by remitting his excommunication.[/quote]

Probably right, sounds like they all may have been "promoted" beyond their abililties. Political awareness and diplomacy (and maybe even common sense) must surely be in every job spec thesedays?

Hi Sally,

Thanks for sending the link to the ANSA article. In addition to the reprehensible comments about the Holocaust, until now I was unaware that this group of bishops was also opposed to declaring that Jews should not be blamed for the death of Christ. This type of language has been a source of many of the pogroms against Jews in the past and is still in evidence today. I have heard children as young as 14 say that the Jews were responsible for Jesus's death. This is the last thing the world needs when anti-Semitism is on the rise world-wide. When will people ever learn?

By taking the actions he did, Pope Benedict will only further alienate many of the Church's congregants, at a time when church participation is at an all time low.

It seems The Pope is forgiven - [url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-01-28_128312585.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Israeli Jews welcome pope's words[/url]

Blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus was something all Christian churches, not only Catholics, used to do mainly in the past. The Scriptures backed that position. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, prayers and texts which contained that type of accusations were removed from the liturgy many years ago. This happened also as a result of the increasing links amongst Judeo-Christian organisations.
Regarding Bishop Williamson he is a key person amongst the Cardinal Lefebvre followers and the Vatican is trying to heal differences between themselves and this conservative group. Williamson was excomunicated simply because he was ordained as a Bishop by the Lefebvre group without the Vatican's consent and he was not the only one on that list. I do not think that they realised the collateral damage that such a decision would cause, or they underestimated it.
It should also be pointed out that Cardinal Lefebvre's followers do not accept the new amended liturgy texts instated by Vatican Council II, which was the origin of their segregation.

The Pope spoke out for the first time on Wednesday, addressing the uproar over his decision to rehabilitate a Holocaust-denying bishop. Here is a link to the current story in the NY Times.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/world/europe/29pope.html?_r=1[/url]

[quote=Gala Placidia;109409]Blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus was something all Christian churches, not only Catholics, used to do mainly in the past. The Scriptures backed that position.[/quote]The Bible makes it clear that Jesus was crucified by the Roman authorities.

Distortion and denial of the scriptures is a symptom of antisemitism, not the cause.

Sorry Steve, without wanting to enter into a religious discussion here, according to the scriptures this is what happened:

[url=http://www.bible-history.com/pontius_pilate/pilatePilate_and_Jesus.htm]Pontius Pilate - Pilate and Jesus[/url]

an easier to read text than actually referring to the Gospels.
Nobody aware of the facts would be able to blame the whole of the Jewish people, but the mob being manipulated by the High Priests who saw Jesus as a dangerous preacher. Pontius Pilate was not very keen on condemning Jesus, this is why he was clever enough to leave the final decision up to the Jews, or rather the mob. According to tradition, Pontius Pilate's wife used to attend meetings where Jesus was preaching and he asked her husband not to condemn Jesus. This is why Pontius Pilate washed his hands after the condemnation which lead Jesus to the cross and Barrabas to freedom (St Mark's and St John's Gospels).
Jesus was a Jew himself, St Joseph was a direct descendant from the House of King David. All of his original apostles and followers were Jews
That the whole issue was grossly manipulated by those in power is nothing new. And I would add that antisemitism was not born then and there. The Jewish people had suffered persecutions well before Jesus was born.
Just as you could not blame the whole of the Jewish people for the death of Jesus, you cannot say that the actions of one excommunicated rebel bishop can reflect the position of the whole church. Perhaps, lifting the excommunication and bringing him back under the direct control of the Vatican was intended as a way to prevent any further damages to the Judeo-Christian links. It is a pity that it has not worked that way.

P.S. I just saw Sally's post and I am glad to see that the matter seems to be settled.

Hi Gala,

I don't think things are quite settled yet. Did you get a chance to read the link to the NY Times article I just posted? Here is a portion of it:

But tensions remained, a day after Israel’s highest religious body sent a letter to the Vatican asking to postpone an annual bilateral meeting and voicing “sorrow and pain” at the pope’s decision to welcome the bishop back into the fold.

On Saturday, the pope revoked the excommunication of four schismatic bishops from a traditionalist sect, including Bishop Richard Williamson, who in an interview broadcast in Sweden last week and widely available online said he believed that no more than 300,000 Jews perished during World War II, none of them in gas chambers.

Oded Wiener, the director general of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, praised the pope’s comments on Wednesday as “a giant step forward” and “an extremely important statement, not only for the Jewish people, but also for all the world.”

But on Tuesday, the annual Holocaust Remembrance Day, Mr. Wiener sent a letter to the Vatican saying that unless the bishop issued a public apology and recanted his “deplorable statements,” it would be “very difficult for the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to continue its dialogue with the Vatican as before.”

The letter said it would be wiser to postpone an annual meeting between the rabbinate and a small group of Vatican officials, scheduled to be held in Rome in early March.

The rabbinate’s letter was addressed to Cardinal Walter Kasper, the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the president of the Commission for Religious Relations With Jews, who said in an earlier interview that he had not been consulted about the pope’s decision to revoke the excommunications of the four bishops.

On Wednesday, the secretary of the commission, the Rev. Norbert Hofmann, said that “no definite decision” had been made about the scheduled meeting. He said Cardinal Kasper had conveyed the message to the highest authorities at the Vatican.

Mr. Wiener said the rabbinate was awaiting a response from Cardinal Kasper before determining how to proceed with the scheduled meeting.

In a statement on Wednesday, the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said he hoped that “the difficulties expressed” by the rabbinate could lead to “further and deeper reflection.”

The Israeli ambassador to the Vatican, Mordechay Lewy, said he welcomed the pope’s remarks about the Holocaust and called them “instrumental in shaping the parameters of the existing and future relations between Jews and Catholics.”

He said the current controversy did not affect relations between Israel and the Vatican, nor did he think they would affect discussions under way for the pope to visit Israel and the Palestinian territories this spring.

The problem here is that this figure of 6 million has become something not to be questioned. Everyone knows about the gas chambers and the camps and they did exist but Bishop Williamson is questioning the numbers. Not only he. I watched a history Channel programme this week which had a large section on Auschwitz and it seems that the worst of the gas chamber murders were imposed upon Romanian and Hungarian Gipsies.

We should remember that Israel uses the holocaust as an excuse for its existence and its actions in defence of its homeland. Any diminution of this effect is not in their interest.

They did kill over 1500 people just recently in their 'defence'.

[quote=cardi;109533].............They did kill over 1500 people just recently in their 'defence'.[/quote]

I think that's the same justification that the UK used for the 'thousand bomber' raids on Germany, and the US used for Nagasaki and Hiroshima

[let him who is without sin cast the first stone]

There are also quite a few "forgotten" victims of the Holocaust, like the Gypsies mentioned by Cardi and the millions of Catholic Poles, Soviet POW, political dissidents, handicapped people, Jehova Witnesses, homosexuals and many more. I would add to the lists the deported Spanish Republicans who had fled to France and were sent to camps during the Nazi occupation. Nobody mentions them, but I happened to know as a child a Spanish lady, who was only a secretary of an important politician who was sent to Dachau from France, where she had to endure the most horrific medical experiments.
All victims and their families have suffered and I do not think that the matter of numbers is that important. Just one was one too many. Bishop Williamson should not have entered the controversy if it was not to point out that ther were many victims who had not been acknowledged. As I said, I think that the Vatican's intention was to keep him under control by integrating him and the others into the mainstream.
For all those interested in having a look at the Holocaust figures, this link is interesting:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust]The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[quote=Gala Placidia;109511]Sorry Steve, without wanting to enter into a religious discussion here, according to the scriptures this is what happened:

[URL="http://www.bible-history.com/pontius_pilate/pilatePilate_and_Jesus.htm"]Pontius Pilate - Pilate and Jesus[/URL]

an easier to read text than actually referring to the Gospels.[/quote]I think it's important to read the actual text of the Bible, not any summary, however well-meaning, because belief leads to errors of emphasis and interpretation.

Not that the Gospels can be taken literally in every respect either. For example, the account of the Passion has to be storytelling, not journalism. There was not likely to have been any Disciple present at the interrogation by Pilate, busily writing down the dialogue in shorthand.

Steve, if you care to read the work of post-modernist theorist Jean Baudrillard, you will realise that all journalism is just storytelling from a point of view. There is no truth, only perception, Consequently, the written word becomes historically the truth. So if you can find any written word to the contrary, we are equally correct.

It seems the Pope was not aware of the remarks made by Bishop Williamson .....

[url]http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-02-04_104320120.htmlr[/url]

I cannot open your link, Sally. Nevertheless, the Vatican should have been more cautious... or better informed.

[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-02-04_104320120.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Pope 'unaware' of Holocaust remarks[/url]

Sorry Gala. I obviously didn't copy the link completely. It's okay now.

Thank you, Sally. After reading the article, there is one particularly interesting comment:

QUOTE

Without this retraction, the bishop will not be admitted ''to the episcopal functions of the church'', the Vatican said, explaining that the rehabilitation did not mean the bishop could act as a minister within the Church.

UNQUOTE

It sounds to me as if they are "muffling" him.

Here is another new article as well about healing the rift:

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/world/europe/05pope.html?_r=1&ref=world[/url]

Here is the latest about the bishop who was excommunicated. He has stated that he will correct himself if he is satisfied of the facts, but that it will "take time."!

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/07/world/AP-EU-Germany-Vatican-Jews.html[/url]

The guy is hopeless. They should call him to the Vatican, lock him up in a cell and throw away the key....

[quote=Gala Placidia;110372]The guy is hopeless. They should call him to the Vatican, lock him up in a cell and throw away the key....[/quote]

Sono d'accordo.

Lisa

Having refused the Pope's call to retract Holocaust denial, Bishop Williamson has been sacked from his position as head of a seminary in Argentina.

[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-02-09_109321026.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Shoah bishop sacked[/url]

The Pope has issued a statement condemning Holocaust denial and is planning a trip to Israel in May, the first visit by a pope since 2000.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/02/12/world/international-us-pope-jews-holocaust.html?_r=1&hp[/url]

I was wondering why so much is written about the pope on this website with the large majority of correspondents confessing to being, if not non-believers then at least non- Catholics.
I wonder if any Italians reading would let us know if this is more or less than the pope is discussed in their homes.

[quote=sdoj;110810]I was wondering why so much is written about the pope on this website with the large majority of correspondents confessing to being, if not non-believers then at least non- Catholics.
I wonder if any Italians reading would let us know if this is more or less than the pope is discussed in their homes.[/quote]

I don't know what other threads have been written about the pope as I haven't researched them. I fail to see the point though where this thread is concerned. It doesn't matter what religion or beliefs members hold as far as I am concerned about this subject. The pope still wields a great deal of power and influence throughout many parts of the world and the fact that he initially wanted to welcome these four bishops back into the fold when they had repudiated the teachings of Vatican Two, especially the holocause-denying bishop has caused controversy and outrage throughout the world.

[I][B]This was issued by ANSA today... the very last sentence is the one which really concerns me. [/B][/I]

(ANSA) - Vatican City, February 12 - Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday said Holocaust denial was ''unacceptable and intolerable'', his firmest personal condemnation yet in a row over the rehabilitation of a bishop who denies the Nazi extermination programme.

Meeting with the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organisations, Benedict said the Holocaust was ''a crime against God and humanity'' and it was ''intolerable'' for anyone to deny it.

''How can we begin to understand the enormity of what happened in those terrible prisons? The whole of humanity feels deep shame for the savage brutality shown towards your people,'' said the German-born pope, recalling his 2006 trip to the Auschwitz concentration camp as a ''deeply moving experience''.

Benedict said he followed his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, in asking God for ''forgiveness'' for the behaviour of those in history who have caused Jews to suffer.

The Catholic Church is ''profoundly and irrevocably engaged in rejecting all antisemitism,'' he added.

The pontiff also officially announced that he was preparing to visit the Holy Land later this year.

According to Vatican sources, the trip will take place May 8-13, with visits to Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth as well as a stop in Jordan.

Jewish-American leaders thanked the pope for his words at a time when they said antisemitism was on the rise.

''We are experiencing a dramatic increase in antisemitism and in acts of physical and verbal violence against Jews,'' said conference chairman Alan Solow, citing a recent attack on a synagogue in Caracas, Venezuela.

''We ask the pope to continue denouncing antisemitism in all its forms and to direct church leaders in all countries to make this a priority''.

The Vatican has been working to defuse tensions with Jews since January when Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication of British bishop Richard Williamson, who recently reiterated his belief that there were no gas chambers and that only 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis, not six million.

Williamson was one of four traditionalist bishops who the pontiff rehabilitated in January and who belong to the ultra-conservative Society of Saint Pius X, which split with Rome over the liberal reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

Williamson was sacked from his position as head of an Argentinian seminary on Monday after failing to retract his denial despite an appeal from the Vatican.

[I][B][COLOR=Red][U]The Vatican[/U] said last week that Benedict was unaware of Williamson's comments at the time of his rehabilitation.

[/COLOR][/B][/I][CENTER][I] *************************************[/I]
[/CENTER]
What do they mean 'he was unaware'? [B]WHY[/B] was he unaware? Don't his spokesmen have to speak [U]on his behalf[/U]?

And this begs the question - what other matters are kept from the Pope (any Pope)? Isn't [B]HE[/B] supposed to be God's representative on Earth - NOT his Vatican spokesmen!

Oh, I'm not sure that there is anything sinister in the Pope not having known that Williamson is a complete loony. Careless, perhaps, but I can't see any 'conspiracy of silence' here.
He wasn't excommunicated for expousing his views on the holocaust (or on 9/11 for that matter), and this Pope wanted him and his Lefebrist colleagues back in the fold because Pope Benedict has a rather different view on the theological schism which caused the original excommunications. That's a fair enough position for a Pope to take.
In addition (not that I offer this in any way as a 'pardoning' of Williamson), the Press deliberately picked up on a broadcast made by Williamson in November last year, and re-aired it on Memorial Day.

[quote=Lisa C.;110814] ... The pope still wields a great deal of power and influence throughout many parts of the world ...[/quote]

I don't know about you but I think without trying very hard I could organise my life in such a way that the pope's power and influence had less impact on my life than say the weather or the health and safety regulations or the credit crunch or crunchy bars and crackers.

:smile::smile:

[quote=sdoj;110849]I don't know about you but I think without trying very hard I could organise my life in such a way that the pope's power and influence had less impact on my life than say the weather or the health and safety regulations or the credit crunch or crunchy bars and crackers.

:smile::smile:[/quote]

That comment isn't worthy of you, sdoj. You are simply considering the Pope as a religionist, and not as a massively influential global politician.

You might not like that reality, but a huge number of (predominantly) poor and helpless human beings are entirely incapable, however hard they try, of escaping hs influence and, yes, "Power".

Yikes, another one:
[quote]In the past Wagner said in a parish newsletter that Katrina was divine retribution for New Orleans' sexual permissiveness and toleration of homosexuals.

He pointed out that nightclubs and abortion clinics were among buildings destroyed by the hurricane, which killed around 1,000 in the city.

Wagner also won headlines for warning children not to read J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter novels on the grounds that they ''spread satanism''. The Bishop of Linz, Ludwig Schwarz, said Sunday he felt ''rather relieved'' by Wagner's announcement that he would step down as auxiliary bishop.
[/quote]
[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-02-16_116344416.html]ANSA.it - News in English - 'Katrina' bishop row continues[/url]

Vatican Protests Against Isreali TV Show

2009-02-20 16:36

Israel promises to stop 'blasphemous' skits
(ANSA) - Vatican City, February 20 - The Vatican on Friday protested to Israel about a TV show containing ''blasphemous'' skits on Jesus and Mary.

In a statement, the Holy See said Israeli authorities had promised to stop any such shows. The Vatican nuncio in Israel contacted the government after protests from the country's Catholic community about the show on private TV channel 101.

In the programme, which aired earlier this week, the host attempted to humorously deny Christian beliefs - that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus walked on water - saying he could do so because Christians deny the Holocaust.

This was a reference to the Vatican's recent lifting of the excommunication of an ultraconservative bishop, Richard Williamson, who denies that six million Jews were killed during World War II.

Jesus and Mary were ''ridiculed with blasphemous words and images,'' the Vatican statement said. ''The authorities promptly assured they would intervene to stop such broadcasts and obtain a public apology from the broadcaster,'' the Vatican said.

The Holy See voiced solidarity with the Christians in the Holy Land over the ''vulgar and offensive'' incident, pointing out that the targets of the show were born in Israel.

The programme went out a few days ago, at about the time that Pope Benedict XVI's May trip to the Holy Land was offically announced.

The pope has repeatedly condemned Williamson's statements, stressing that he wasn't aware of his views when he lifted the excommunication. The Holocaust-denying bishop, whose rehabilitation caused a rift between the Vatican and Jews, has now been asked to leave Argentina where he headed a seminary for his traditionalist Catholic group.

Argentine authorities have given Willamson ten days to leave or face expulsion on the grounds that he lied about his reasons for being in the country.

Argentine Interior Minister Florencio Randazzi ordered Williamson out after police found ''irregularities in his documents,'' the DyN press agency reported.

The Vatican declined to comment on the news.

[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-02-26_126321992.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Holocaust- denying bishop apologises[/url]

[quote=Sally Donaldson;112059][url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-02-26_126321992.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Holocaust- denying bishop apologises[/url][/quote]

Just thought everyone should see this. :yes:

I heard last night that Williamson left Argentina of his own accord to avoid expulsion and returned to the UK. He is no longer head of the Seminar at La Reja. He has become an embarrassment and nobody wants him around. He is going to pay a very high price for his pride and contempt.

[quote=Gala Placidia;112079]I heard last night that Williamson left Argentina of his own accord to avoid expulsion and returned to the UK. He is no longer head of the Seminar at La Reja. He has become an embarrassment and nobody wants him around. [I][B]He is going to pay a very high price for his pride and contempt.[/B][/I][/quote]

I'm rarely, if ever, vindictive - but this apology for a man deserves everything he gets.

One consolation I suppose, is the knowledge that one day he will have to face 'his Maker' ([U][I]and[/I][/U] the spirits of those 6,000,000 that he denied ever existed).

The Spanish television has just announced that the Pope refuses to accept the apologies presented by the Bishop. He is in big trouble.

So will Wiliamson be excommunicated again Gala do you think???

And here's the Beeb's version [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7915022.stm]BBC NEWS | Europe | Vatican rejects bishop's apology[/url]

As an aside, from Policeman front left.... "Doh, where did i leave my mobile phone, coffee table, car glove pocket...?

[quote=Sally Donaldson;112165]So will Wiliamson be excommunicated again Gala do you think???[/quote]

He could, if he persists and does not obbey the orders given by the Vatican; however, I do not think that the Pope would be too keen on a second excommunication. I would think that he will be sent to some retirement place to reflect on the situation and get some counsel from higher dignataries. He will be kept away from the media. I think that this will be the most likely outcome. Then, when he will be ready, he will make a full apology deploring the harm caused. But he will be kept in the dark as he has become a liability.

How many times can Williamson be "excommunicated" - and if he passes "Go" will he collect £200.00?