10793 Keeping a base temperature for an unoccupied property during winter

Not quite sure why you would leave it on if unoccupied?
I wouldnt bother!
Too expensive - no point!

We have just got back from 'preparing' our holiday home for Winter. There really is no point in leaving the heating on all winter

As long as you have antifreeze in the Central Heating, all you need to do for the Winter is
1. Switch off Electric, water and gas
2. Drain the hot and cold water pipes by, [after turning the water off], opening hot and cold taps at the lowest point [we're lucky, we have a sink downstairs in the garage] and let them run dry. This can be speeded up by opening a hot and cold tap at a higher point to allow air quickly to enter the system. Leave the lower taps open when you are away.
3. Flush the loo a couple of times to ensure the cistern is empty
4. If there is no antifreeze in the Central Heating system, drain those pipes as well.

The only down side is that you do come back to a cold house if you then do a Winter visit [we usually go back in January]. But with the Central Heating running, the log fire blazing and a couple of low wattage convector heaters, we have the house up to about 16C - 18C within a hour or so.

.

My suggestion would be that you invest the money you would otherwise have spent heating your house to 10° on a brand new, more modern thermostat/controller that has a "Frost" setting. That way, you can leave the setting on "Frost", ensuring that nothing freezes and your house doesn't get too damp either.

I was advised to turn the thermostat down to 5'c which will turn on the heat should it get too cold.
This should take the chill off the air as well as preventing ice in the pipes.
The plumber did say he had put anti-freeze in anyway but you never know..........
Was it very expensive to leave it on at 10'c last winter?

If I were leaving the house for the winter I would be tempted to shut down all the electrics too - which would of course mean no heating. This in the interests of safety and cost. Obviously not appropriate if you have alarm systems etc.

[quote=piedmont_phil;100964].........shut down all the electrics too .............. Obviously not appropriate if you have alarm systems etc.[/quote]

Hopefully, even with an alarm system installed, you could still turn off the majority of the electrics at the 'fuse-box'.

Thank you all for the replies.
We also used the property on a couple of occasions during the winter for short breaks and it was rather nice arriving only to a semi-cold house and just by turning up the thermostat it was then warm within a couple of hours.
We thought it was better to leave a low base temperature for the winter to keep a constant temperature, specially as we have a semi-terrato (basement) that we've converted into a living space - prevent humidity, etc. The combined gas and electricity bill in April that would have covered most of the winter months came to 150 euro. Just to add that ours is an 'appartamento' with neighbours on both sides, although neither property was occupied all the time last winter.

If you are leaving the house unoccupied fr periods of more than 31 days you may need to check with your insurance company if you can leave services on

[quote=Nardini;100955]My suggestion would be that you invest the money you would otherwise have spent heating your house to 10° on a brand new, more modern thermostat/controller that has a "Frost" setting. That way, you can leave the setting on "Frost", ensuring that nothing freezes and your house doesn't get too damp either.[/quote]

An appartment may not need heat when empty during winter but a house made of solid stone does. It is a wise investment to do as Nardini recommends and as we do with our second, smaller house. Winter damp will affect books and furnishings, bedding etc and a stone house takes some time to warm up.

[quote=Noble;101087]An appartment may not need heat when empty during winter but a house made of solid stone does. It is a wise investment to do as Nardini recommends and as we do with our second, smaller house. Winter damp will affect books and furnishings, bedding etc and a stone house takes some time to warm up.[/quote]

Sounds like good advice but as has been pointed out, a lot of insurance policies dictate that if the building is left empty for more than a couple of weeks all services must be switched off.
As we are renovating a stone house I would be interested to know how others get round this.
We had originally planned underfloor heating linked to solar that even during winter would provide a background heat but we opted to have the original 9" thick chianche stone floors, so underfloor heating is out. We therefore resigned ourself to the fact that we would have to use storage bags (the type you suck the air out of) for anything that would suffer from damp but would love to know if there is a better solution out there.

We have many friends with holiday houses here in Umbria that are built of stone and they all leave the heating on during winter. Some are richer than others and so may set higher than the frost option. (We don't think that's necessary). Their house insurance providers vary. Some use English cos and some Italian but they are all permitted to keep the house "gently warm" whilst empty. As you seem not tohave bought insurance yet???? Something to consider perhaps?

Best to consider a base temperature of minimum 5c, just to keep the damp and frost protection up, as has been mentioned before. With regard to insurance company regs, then you do have to check these very carefully.
Altitude also plays a factor and there is also the possibility of "frost spikes" at any time, even during the pre winter cooler season.
Best advice as already given, is get thermostatic controls to keep a constant minimum heat level, and make sure that you have antifreeze + a corrosion inhibitor in the heating system, or drain the system when not in use. Remember, that one of the main failures is the circulating pump which works to fairly fine tolerance levels and can easily get clogged with debris if left over longer periods of time unused

We oversee a number of houses which are unoccupied over the winter. We have never had a problem with any house where the heating has been switched-off, however we have had first-hand experience of two owners who have had a problem leaving it on. Both had cleaners who came in and switched it on while they cleaned, then forgot to switch it off. Result: several hundred euros in wasted gas and, in one case, cracked floor tiles.

As far as damp is concerned, I think the issue is ventilation more than cold.

True Marc and I appreciate your experience but how do you control Ventillation if the house is shut up all winter? Rely on those cleaners or someone poping in? It can be such a horribly freezing cold welcome back if there has been no heating and no Marc looking after the place. Do you put on the heating before clients return to their stone built homes in winter then?

[quote=Noble;101194]Do you put on the heating before clients return to their stone built homes in winter then?[/quote]

Yes, we do sometimes. I can still remember coming back to what is now our permanent home but used to be our 'weekend home' when we lived in Rome; it always took 48 hours to heat up the walls and floor, by which time we were setting off for Rome again in the car!

[quote]Sounds like good advice but as has been pointed out, a lot of insurance policies dictate that if the building is left empty for more than a couple of weeks all services must be switched off.[/quote]

Some do, but you may also discover quite the opposite. Some insurers insist that the heating is maintained at a certain minimum (minimum 5c) to prevent freezing pipes and bursts during cold snaps. This can be a problem if your electric heating fails due to a power cut.

If this happens you could be in breach of the terms of the policy, potentially leaving you uninsured against water damage. It’s wise to get clarification on this from your insurer.

If you have to drain the water system alan h gives some good advice.

[quote]As long as you have antifreeze in the Central Heating, all you need to do for the Winter is
1. Switch off Electric, water and gas
2. Drain the hot and cold water pipes by, [after turning the water off], opening hot and cold taps at the lowest point [we're lucky, we have a sink downstairs in the garage] and let them run dry. This can be speeded up by opening a hot and cold tap at a higher point to allow air quickly to enter the system. Leave the lower taps open when you are away.
3. Flush the loo a couple of times to ensure the cistern is empty
4. If there is no antifreeze in the Central Heating system, drain those pipes as well.[/quote]

Remember to drain the water system down as simply turning the water off still leaves water in the system that could cause damage.

Just some things to check in your insurance small print, as you don’t want to be uninsured.

I have not dealt with European policies but when handling such policies in the US for 16 years the language would read that you had to either maintain a temperature so things would not freeze OR drain and winterize the system. These were always open to interpretation as to what extent needed to be done to satisfy the requirement.

Read your policy before you make a decision on what to do.

One other point with keeping antifreeze in the system. Make sure that it is a food grade propylene glycol mix, rather than ethanol. Reason for this is, that although ethanol does not thicken as much as PG at low temperatures, it is more inflammable.
Mainly this is for people with underfloor heating systems and if for any unknown reason there is a fire.

I work in property insurance, so on this theme, I know that it is very common practice for insurance policies to exclude all damage caused by escape of water or malicious damage where a property has remained unoccupied for a period of more than 30 days (some policies allow more).

For those who have purchased special holiday home insurance in the UK, please check the wordings of your policies, as what you may think should be covered, may well not be and you don't want to be finding out after the event.

Home insurance purchased in Italy follows very different rules to the UK, with no standard type of cover offered.

[quote]check the wordings of your policies, as what you may think should be covered, may well not be and you don't want to be finding out after the event.[/quote]

I agree. Take some time to check policy wordings for any unoccupancy restrictions (turning off water/draining heating system) and security warranties (installing certain locks and shutters).

We had to leave our house unoccupied last winter for two months. Friends came in a couple of times every week to feed the cats, but the place was basically closed up for that whole time. We left the thermostat on a low setting (for anti-frost and for the comfort of the cat) and also left a dehumidifier running.

If we had to do it again, the thermostat would be set as low at it gets since we burned a ridiculous amount of LPG in our absence. (The cat, I'm afraid, would just have to snuggle down in her bed a bit deeper.)

The dehumidifier, however, was an unqualified success: the place was not damp at all when we returned and there were none of the musty smells you often get in houses that haven't been well-aired for some time. The model we have is a stand-alone one much like [URL="http://www.castorama.it/prodotti/artI243.php"]this one[/URL] available from Castorama. Ours cost less than €100 and it has a tank to hold the water it collects, but there's also an attachment where you can connect a hose so the water drains away continuously. We put the unit in the shower so the water drained away directly, thus making it impossible for the cat to mess around with the hose and so create a minor flood.

Our place has seven rooms on two floors. The bathroom the dehumidifier was left in is on the ground floor and (in terms of airflow) sort of in the middle of the rooms. We made sure all the internal doors would remain open while we were gone by using door stops, but all the windows and shutters were closed up tight.

The other thing the dehumidifier does is act as a very low-level heater. It only uses 300 Watts or so, but it does make a minor contribution toward keeping the place warmish.

Al

We shut down everything. Although it is a solid stone construction and on the river the property does not seem to be affected greatly during the winter and it only takes half an hour to get it warm up. We do have an anti-freeze put in, though.

Well after asking my 'procuratore' to set the new heatiing system thermostat to 5° to cover frost control, etc. he has just sent an email to say it has been set at 10° on advise from the technician.
Well in this bad weather I expect the heating to be on every day now unless it suddenly gets warmer. :eeeek:

[quote=IRITALIA;103665]Well after asking my 'procuratore' to set the new heatiing system thermostat to 5° to cover frost control, etc. he has just sent an email to say it has been set at 10° on advise from the technician.
Well in this bad weather I expect the heating to be on every day now unless it suddenly gets warmer. :eeeek:[/quote]
3.9C at 10.30 thismorning where we are. Pump has run for 48 hrs in the last 6 days, but it has been icy outside during the night.

Well there you go. If it was set at 5° it would be on anyway.
Won't be there until New Years Eve but at least the house will be slightly warm when I arrive.
Better safe than sorry I suppose but will I still be saying that when the first bill comes in? :bigergrin:

I know, winter is nearly over (although snow is forecast this week) so why drag this up again but I have been wondering something for a while.
I left the central heating on the lowest level which does turn out to be 10° to protect against frost, etc. I set the timer as I would being there to come on during the day to take the chill and damp off the air.
My question is this...would it have been more sensible just to set the timer for during the night when the temperature does actually drop below zero? Also as the thermostat is in the main hall I thought that closing the doors to all the rooms would mean that it would be able to better regulate the temperature. My procuratore has told me he has now opened all the doors to let the air circulate. Does this not mean that the space is now much larger to warm up and the thermostat will not turn off the boiler as quickly as the hall will take for ever to heat?
Does this make any sense? :veryconfused::bigergrin:

Obviously you have a different system to myself, but with a couple of clients who have the same system and only visit at various times this is the information that I have. Both thermostats are located in the hallways and both houses have underfloor heating, set at 10C for the winter. Pump running times approx 4 hours per week, and this includes holding the domestic hot water at 35C. Houses are fairly open plan, so obviously the air circulates better, than if you are just setting the temperature to heat the hallway. Is it a radiator system, and have you shut the thermostatic valves down for the rest of the house, or are they all set at 10C, if so, then you would probably not see that much change in the running costs, whereas with having the doors open the heat will circulate far better.
Usually better to leave the timer off, as at least then it will moderate the heat evenly and not have to boost too much in the night

Sudden thought on this thread, when our house here was only a holiday home I seem to remember our insurers insisting that we kept the thermostat set at 15 degs when it wasn't occupied. Hasn't anyone else come across that? I think at the time we were with Intasure.

Thanks Geotherm.
It is a radiator system and I know this will sound strange but I don't think there are thermostatic valves on the radiators. :eeeek:
My ones in Germany have numbers 1-5 so you can regulate them but the new system in Italy just seems to be either on or off! I discovered this by turning some to half closed and it didn't make a bit of difference, they were still on full.
Here is a picture of one of the said radiators which might shed light on the situation.
I must say they work a treat in heating the house but there doesn't seem to be the option of adjusting the heat level for each individual room. To keep cost down I turn several off when I am there but leave them all on when I leave. Hence the question about closing doors as the hall is somewhat long in itself so my thinking is if it's reached 10° then the rooms should have as well. :nah:

I turn everything off at my place when I'm not there in Winter [and drain the water pipes, but not the central heating pipes], as it doesn't take that long to get the temperature back up once we are there

When we went there on New Years Eve, the temperature in the house had dropped to 2C - took a while [about 4 or 5 hours] to get it up to 16C, using the central heating, a couple of [small] electric fires and a lovely log fire - part of the holiday experience.

.

[quote=IRITALIA;112297]Thanks Geotherm.
It is a radiator system and I know this will sound strange but I don't think there are thermostatic valves on the radiators. :eeeek:
My ones in Germany have numbers 1-5 so you can regulate them but the new system in Italy just seems to be either on or off! [/quote]

You can 'retrofit' thermostatic valves quite easily - they just sit 'on top' of the ordinary valves - cost about €15 each, plus 10 minutes per radiator for the plumber. They are not by any means universally used in Italy.

I think they are excellent things - not least you can keep the living room at 22C and the spare bedroom at 10C (when you're there). The usual advice is to have one radiator (even a small towel rail) with an ordinary valve (in order that the boiler can circulate water without being controlled by the thermostatic valves), but I can't quite see the reasoning behind this.

I fitted my stone farmhouse in Umbria with a heatstore fed by a woodstove back boiler and wet solar panels. The solar panels fire up on most winter days, even when it's overcast, so low grade heat is always being harvested. Using BTcino programmable thermostats as timers this heat can be shot into towel rails/radiators from time to time to stop the house freezing, and it's all FREE.

[quote=Charles Phillips;112313]You can 'retrofit' thermostatic valves quite easily ............The usual advice is to have one radiator (even a small towel rail) with an ordinary valve (in order that the boiler can circulate water without being controlled by the thermostatic valves), but I can't quite see the reasoning behind this.[/quote]

In theory it helps prevent a build up of pressure in the system when/if all the thermostatic valves close. Modern [very recent] UK systems are required to have a pressure relief valve within the system [not on a radiator], and that allows you to have thermo' valves on all rads.

[and it keeps your towels warm]

.

Iritalia.
Very good advice from Charles, re fitting the thermostatic valves. From your picture it is a straight run through, controlled by the hall sensor, so therefore no real temperature influence on the other rooms of the house.
As before, I can only comment on our systems, which require 70% of thermostatic valves left fully open on radiator systems, unless bypasses are fitted.
You may also be able to reduce the setting on the pump flow, which will also consume less electricity.

[quote=alan h;112338]In theory it helps prevent a build up of pressure in the system when/if all the thermostatic valves close. Modern [very recent] UK systems are required to have a pressure relief valve within the system [not on a radiator], and that allows you to have thermo' valves on all rads.

[and it keeps your towels warm]

.[/quote]
Our systems shut down completely, until the return flow heating temperature is below a 13C variance. Obviously it does vary with different types of systems and I am sure there are many here who could provide more detailed information, related to their own experiences.

Thanks guy's, those are some really helpfull tips.
I think I will add the thermostatic valves as it sounds just what I need especially as I will move full time in a couple of weeks time. Chill off the air in selected rooms and toasty in others. I can leave the guest toilet on full and a towel rail to help with the circulation/pressure. Must admit I never use the towel rail but maybe I will now. :smile: