12067 University Education

Ah but perhaps the point is Neilo, that employers can see that graduate entrants have reached a certain standard of education, and use that as a guide line, I think to a degree (:bigergrin:) the subject matter is immaterial, having said that a doctor with a fine arts degree would be a bit of a worry.
A

I wish it was like that.

I always assumed that was the case but I had a bit of an eye opener when doing some recruitment for sales administrators/junior sales people with our sales director. All applicants were graduates currently in work and not one of them could spell or put together a letter or their CV correctly. I told our sales director that we should carry on looking, as if the applicants could not write properly (and a large part of the job was writing to clients) I wouldn't even bother interviewing them. He replied that unfortunately in his experience none of that age group could write properly and if we took that attitude there wouldn't be anyone to interview! He said we would have to educate them in this respect. I admit I was gobsmacked.

I know Penny, spelling and punctuation can always be a problem, :winki:
A

So to make this more interesting, there must be many parents of students/graduates of university on this forum, whats your view after the sacrifices you have made for your childrens education?, is it a waste of time in many cases, would they have been better equipped to have followed an apprenticeship scheme, (not that these seem available anymore) just to keep a balance because I think it would make an interesting debate.
A

Moved to [url=http://www.italiauncovered.co.uk]Italia Uncovered[/url]

I'm not sure it is that important to take on a career which exactly reflects your degree course. It can be done, but it's not the be all and end all and I certainly wouldn't see anyone who e.g. studied Music and joined a Bank high flyer programme (I rememeber one such example - who was pretty sharp:bigergrin:) as betraying themselves. Nor for that matter should there be a stigma if e.g. rearing fainting goats in Italy was what they wanted to do.:eeeek:

Best that people find their own place/niche/forte as quickly as possibly and enjoy themselves in what they do, whether that involves going to Uni or not.

I am short of time so this is quick but I can confirm that I know at least half a dozen young Italian graduates who cannot get a job and they are ALL working as shop assistants. In fact Benetton favours graduates to work in their shops in Italy. Having a good education does not necessarily result in getting a good job but it helps.

I'm afraid my experience of youngsih Italian graduates is much the same as Noble. The chap working for the pool company a few years ago has a masters degree in Bio-engineering, and a nice girl with a degree in English works as a small time tour guide. Then even if you have a degree, for example in medicine, as a GP you might get to earn €35,000 per year if you are very lucky.

One snag is that these qualified youngsters, for one reason or another, don't want to relocate away from their families. Perhaps in Milan or Turin there may be some jobs.

[quote=Angie and Robert;115233]So to make this more interesting, there must be many parents of students/graduates of university on this forum, whats your view after the sacrifices you have made for your childrens education?, is it a waste of time in many cases, would they have been better equipped to have followed an apprenticeship scheme, (not that these seem available anymore) just to keep a balance because I think it would make an interesting debate.
A[/quote]

We have two daughters, both university graduates in very different fields which reflect their personalities and talents.
The eldest is an auditor and she is a partner in one of the "Big 4" firms in the USA.
The youngest is the artist in the family, after graduating she has worked in animation, illustration and has written a few illustrated books for children and young adults. She is about to do a Masters in the USA, after a painful divorce, and this will help her to get back into her profession after abandoning it to follow her husband around the world.
In both cases, we have spent quite a lot of money in their education, not only university but also private schools, private tuition covering all kinds of subjects, anything that could develop their talents and skills. We firmly believe that it was money very well spent and the best thing we could do for their future. Much better than properties or money in the bank. It has given them the possibility of earning a living through their own efforts and we both know, through personal experience, that family wealth can come and go, but you always keep your knowledge as a personal asset that nobody can take away from you.
Regarding education, although I firmly believe that everyone should get one and as good as possible, not everyone has neither the vocation nor the aptitude for academic studies. Parents should not force their children to go into tertiary education if this is not what they really want. We do not need millions of lawyers, doctors or engineers. On the other hand, there are plenty of careers and occupations which do not require four, or six, or even more years of tertiary studies. And the individual may be happier in any kind of occupation he/she may choose instead of going to a university to study something he/she did not want. Family pressure is a very dangerous and unrealistic practice.

My son had hoped to become a chartered accountant, but by the time he was 18 things in his life had changed and he decided that getting engaged - and eventually married - to his childhood sweetheaert was more important than several more years at school...

So, apart from a fistful of A levels, there were no other qualifications. The marriage never happened, and for that matter no other marriage has ever happened either.

BUT

Despite [I]not[/I] having letters after his name, and spending countless years studying things he would (probably) never use, he has not had [I]one day[/I] 'out of work' since he left school. He has done a few jobs to make sure his income - even if not large - was adequate. Everything from working in the evenings (after school) at McDonalds, to training and becoming a British Rail Guard and Inspector. But then 'music' called and now - without a laurea to his name he has an international music and DJ agency and he continuously travels world wide.

I cannot describe how proud I am of him. And I now have to agree with his argument of all those years ago, when he said to me "A piece of paper with a grade on it will [I]never[/I] substitute the common sense I have learned from you! I will make my way in the world and never be out of a job or go hungry."
To date he has achieved that.

[quote=juliancoll;115269] I do appreciate there are many thousands of parents who scrimp and save but I spend my scrimped and saved money where I deem best. I do not view producing a polite, kind, clever young woman (for that is what she will become because of the education she is receiving) to be of no earthly use [/quote]

I have a pre-school age child but unless financial circumstances change dramatically in the next few years no matter how much we scrimp or save the accounts just won't add up for private education. I am kind of hoping that he will become a polite, kind, clever young man with his parent's input - I didn't realise that required a private education.

[quote=Nicola;115292]I have a pre-school age child but unless financial circumstances change dramatically in the next few years no matter how much we scrimp or save the accounts just won't add up for private education. I am kind of hoping that he will become a polite, kind, clever young man with his parent's input - I didn't realise that required a private education.[/quote]

You are fortunate Nicola that your son is at school in Italy as your son will grow up with all the qualities you hope for and a second language too.

[quote=Nicola;115292]I have a pre-school age child but unless financial circumstances change dramatically in the next few years no matter how much we scrimp or save the accounts just won't add up for private education. I am kind of hoping that he will become a polite, kind, clever young man with his parent's input - I didn't realise that required a private education.[/quote]

No need to fret about it Nicola - I'm sure you will do a grand job, but the point I was making is that from school age onwards, the school will have your child in its care for far more of his waking hours than you will and therefore, it is the overall education the child receives that will maketh the man. I choose to pay for mia figlias education simply because other available options are unsatisfactory in this area, but I'm also fortunate enough to have the best private school in the North West on my doorstep and to be able to pay for it.

This does not mean that excellent state schools do not exist or that the input from parents is not equally as important - but you already knew that didn't you? :smile:

Thought I would add to the debate as I have experiences in a number of areas. I went to a very academic selective school and went on to study Economics at university followed by 16 years in accountancy (which I hated). During that time I studied part time (at the wonderful Birkbeck College part of London University where classes are largely held in the evenings) for an MA where I majored in Geography and Geo-politics (as well as studying history, socio-linguistics and literature) (oh but the bit of paper says "Canadian and North American Studies" so it must be worthless :winki:) and gained a distinction (exams sat at 6 months pregnant and 18,000 word dissertation was completed three weeks before my son was born!). A few years later a redundancy opportunity arose and so I took the money and went back to uni again, taking an MSc in Tourism Management (again getting a distinction). I now lecture in Tourism and Leisure at a university which attracts many students from non-traditional backgrounds. Many of these are there because there are no jobs or other training schemes for them but there are many who come and make the most of the opportunities available and work hard and achieve far more than they (or I) would have expected based on their first year.

My big concern at the moment (like many people I guess) is that many graduates are not employable from a communications perspective - many of my students have very poor grammar, spelling and punctuation as well as writing - not sure they are entirely to blame as they don't appear to be taught it in schools and computers really don't help but by the time I get them it is a bit late.

Anyway I could go on for hours about it but the sun is shining so I'm out to plant some herbs...
Chris

My pennyworth too... both our children went through the state system, both went to the local bog standard comprehensive.. both survived, in fact I think they can cope with a whole lot of situations their parents might have a problem with.
Daughter, now 22, went on to Leeds University and graduated last summer with a degree in Biology, vaguely thinking of a career in finance, but as we had made a promise to ourselves that they wouldn't start their lives in debt emerged without a student debt and with some money in the bank she had been left, so took a gap year and had a fab round the world trip with boyfriend, they then went on to run a chalet in France through the ski season... just returned so confident and grown up, able to deal with people, charming and poised (and able to COOK!) and still intending to start the career.. maybe after another ski season...
Son (20) is at Liverpool John Moores studying Mechanical Engineering, not great on the spelling or grammar it has to be said, but a whizz at Maths and Physics, it would be good if more help was given to those general areas, but presumably he should be employable at the end..?
The teen years are the key I think, my working hours were tailored to their school hours, they act so grown up but support during those years is more vital than ever.
To go back to the first point... a few others we know around here have dropped out, as the debt didn't seem worth it for what they were going to end up with... some have made a go of things, others not so good. These are difficult times, hiding out in Uni may be the best bet at present.
I also rather think it is a way of manipulating unemployment figures for the better, but it will come back to haunt the powers that be. More plumbers and brickies for sure, though I think it is more school pressure than parental pressure when it comes to 6th form choices etc.

[quote=juliancoll;115299]
This does not mean that excellent state schools do not exist or that the input from parents is not equally as important - but you already knew that didn't you? :smile:[/quote]

Yes exactly I did know that :yes: I think I just found the choice of words a bit strange to describe the benefits of private school. There may certainly be advantages to having a private education (I wouldn't know having been to a rather bog standard comprehensive school myself :winki:) but I was under the impression that things like kindness and politeness were instilled by parents and not the responsibility of teachers. My child may at certain points in his life spend more hours in education than with me but I will be the most consistent presence in his life until he's an adult.

My impression of Italian further education has always been that it is very theoretical with not as much emphasis on the practical skills of eg being a doctor or a teacher but that's only an impression from speaking to people. As with everything in Italy the degree that you come out with at the end of the day is only going to be as useful as the people you know that can get you a job in your chosen field. And in some cases knowing the right person is probably more useful than getting the degree - there was a recent case where a number of fake nurses were found in a Calabrian hospital - they had paid a head nurse at the hospital to get their qualification and had been working there undetected for a number of years. I also remember watching a TV programme a couple of years back where a girl had asked Prodi (the then Prime Minister) to "raccomandarla" because as a graduate she had applied for over 1000 jobs but wasn't considered suitably qualified for any of them. Her argument being that she couldn't list any influential locals amongst her friends or family so was always bottom of any interview list.

I read this thread with interest as I left school at 16 & went to dance school full time, back in the days when there weren't degree courses available unless you went to one of the select few universisties which did them (& no one who was serious about dancing went to them). After teaching for nigh on 25 years and gaining dance teaching qualifications including a level 4 NVQ I find myself now at a point where, living in Italy a degree would be advantageous as i also teach English & to work in a school or university in regular school hours, even as a madre lingua you have to have a degree. What I find incredible about this is that the subject of the degree isn't important. I wanted to do a ginnastica class in a local asilo but I couldn't as I don't have a degree but if i had a degree in say, law, i could (technically) go in & teach that class despite having no training. So, if i want to progess here looks like I will finally be hitting those books again (although it's good to see that spelling & grammar doesn't seem to be a requirement!)

We have suggested to our 16 year old son that the learning following trades would be really useful plumber/electrician/joiner/painter and decorator and at a push Hairdresser ( I have very unruly hair) but NO!

He wants to be a Marine Biologist because it's REALLY important.......for the environment and that...(smiley icon ironic stuff)

But really...

Education in Scotland/England/Italy - Could it be done gooder?

It is lovely that the teenagers want to save the planet, and I totally applaud it, from what I remember of Marine Biology, it is only taught in a few rather far flung unis (remember all those trips full of bedding maybe every term...) and I think it is a bit over subscribed as a career.
We have had a couple of trips to North Cyprus (oops moderators I know this is an Italy forum) where UK undergraduates manage a turtle breeding site, we visited it each time.. looked pretty hard work in gruelling conditions (they had improved a bit the second time), presumably 16 year old has looked into the realities?
There is a bit of a choice between following your dreams or getting the bits in place for a career... if it was my child and they worked towards what was required and really wanted to do it to go for it, but be prepared after a year of a change of plan ?!

Yes I am !

I had prepared a big "reply" based on my personal circumstances however, this forum is about Italy and the question - I believe- is about the "value" of a degree?

Well, as far as I know you can't even get a job in a shop in Italy unless you have been on a course...hence the reason we won't be trying to get a job...

All I DO know that my friend who is educating her children in Italy wants them to go to University in Scotland

[, from what I remember of Marine Biology, it is only taught in a few rather far flung unis

Glasgow University - Far flung???

One of the best centres specialising in Marine Biology in the world is the one which belongs to the James Cook University in Townsville, Queensland (Australia) and to study there would be pretty expensive mainly because of the distance involved. Then, their research centre is located in the Great Barrier Reef so they will be able to study more than a few turtles or fish. International students attend their courses from all over the world. Education, particularly in some specialised areas, is an expensive commodity. On the other hand, more scholarships and financial assistance are needed if we want to have high level academics.

I suppose the definition of far flung depends on where you are! Didn't realise they did it at Glasgow, was aware of Exeter and one of the South Wales Unis.
Have no contributions to make on the Italian value of a degree so had better stop on this one....

are the posters on this forum aware that many of the jobs our GCSE students will do in the future do not even exist yet? I am sure many of you remember that a computer was a huge machine in the only air conditioned room in the university to which only maths and engineering students had access. Who would have guessed that their offspring might be web pager designers or designing games for microsoft for the x box. Even today there are jobs managing facebook or twitter replies for celebrities who haven't the time to manage them. I am a humble comprehensive school teacher of a similar age to most of the posters on this forum - my message to you is stop complaining about things you really do not know much about (for example, nursing is now a degree course) and concentrate on what you do know about - life in Italy

You want to concentrate on life in Italy...How about this?
The chemist's son in our village, whose uncle is the local GP (not ours), whose Mother owns a Convalescent Home, is apparently studying Medicine at the Univ of Perugia and at the same time has a "full time" job on the local Council as an assessore (councillor). Did any one mention the word Hippocratic? Let's pray that he'll never practice!

I think that one of the reasons so many youngsters go on to uni is the lack of other training. Certainly in our area there is very little in the way of vocational training and there are very few opportunities for apprenticeships. Many small employers can not afford to take on trainees as just the added expence of having a 16 year old on the books (i.e. the healh & safety issues) make it prohibitive and despite what they say, there is little or no help from local government agencies.

I approached the job centre a couple of years ago and said we would be interested in taking on a school leaver what did they suggest. There were varous schemes which meant I could employ a 16 yr old and under the scheme only had to pay them £50 per week! The woman from the job centre couldn't understand why I felt that this was wrong and though I tried to explain that we would pay a living wage but wanted help with possible training she couldn't offer any help and couldn't see where I was coming from at all!

With our main employer being the many care homes and pubs in our local area there just isn't any chance of a good job unless kids do go on to uni.

My daughter is in her second year and already worrying about the jobs market when she finishes next year. My son is due to go off this year and will be studying English and Philosophy. He has no intention of either teaching or becoming the next Plato but all of the big employers have said to do a "classics" degree then do your masters in whichever field you decide upon. It isn't enough to have a degree now to get where you want!!

Madness

Jackie

ps. Both kids have gone through the local comp, are hard working, polite, well read and able to converse inteligently. I put this down to habits instilled at home but we are also lucky in that our local comp has excellent teaching staff and we live in area where there are few social issues that the schools have to deal with so they can concentrate on the important business of teaching

I went to private school and it didn't do me any favours. Both my kids went to the local comp and have a much better street smarts than I ever will plus a much broader circle of friends. They are both also going to/already at university - computer studies and medicine. 93% of UK kids go through the state system which seems to indicate to me that private schooling is an irrelevancy in this debate.
My understanding of the Italian system is that it doesn't really matter what you study, because it's your family connections which will get you the job afterwards - the dark side of the "strong Italian family" . Highly educated and intelligent Italians of my acquaintance have had to go abroad to get jobs equal to their educational attainment